The Healer Solution Is So Easy...

[Mist1313]

Since starting this game I have played Cleric to 15, Disciple to 17 and Shaman to 19. Mostly I have played to get a feel for the different healer classes. These classes are overpowered. The main reason they are overpowered is because they all have good melee skills attached to them. My 19 Shaman has 2 very good energy free attacks. Disciple had good melee skills ( Its still not that bad ). Cleric seemed to have the weakest melee but still doable.

Vanguard needs to adjust these classes so that melee specials start using energy as well as endurance to use. This way if a healer wants to crank out the DPS its going to cost them alot of energy. Blow your wad on DPS and you won't be healing anything. This way the class will still be viable as a group healer. Pvp will balance out a bit better and soloing will still be possible. Its that easy... except for the math.

Anyway... these are my thoughts.

Varking
Mist - 19 Shaman - Using the Nukie Bird
Handsome - 17 Disciple -
Whip - 15 cleric

Cya

[unst4blec0d3r]

Since starting this game I have played Cleric to 15, Disciple to 17 and Shaman to 19. Mostly I have played to get a feel for the different healer classes. These classes are overpowered. The main reason they are overpowered is because they all have good melee skills attached to them. My 19 Shaman has 2 very good energy free attacks. Disciple had good melee skills ( Its still not that bad ). Cleric seemed to have the weakest melee but still doable.

Vanguard needs to adjust these classes so that melee specials start using energy as well as endurance to use. This way if a healer wants to crank out the DPS its going to cost them alot of energy. Blow your wad on DPS and you won't be healing anything. This way the class will still be viable as a group healer. Pvp will balance out a bit better and soloing will still be possible. Its that easy... except for the math.

Anyway... these are my thoughts.

Varking
Mist - 19 Shaman - Using the Nukie Bird
Handsome - 17 Disciple -
Whip - 15 cleric

Cya

I'd have to disagree. I love the fact that when playing a cleric, I can melee using endurance and heal with energy. The moment you start pulling from the same bucket, you will get the "Healbot". "Stand back and Heal". In groups you would be expected to save all your energy for healing. Plus for the most part, healers don't "Crank out the DPS". Its enough to contribute, but hardly extreme. I remember trying a rogue and I was hitting 3 digit dmg by lvl 3. Not so with my cleric.

[Piety]

I agree, especially when it comes to the Cleric.
I'm playing a Shaman and a Cleric.

It's the Melee capability and the Casting coming from a different pool that allows the Healer to be so versatile.

I love playing a Battle Cleric.
Our melee doesn't do much, it adds some DPS, but mostly it lets us entertain ourselves while we watch for heals and let the DPS classes tear through a mob.

[Lupich]

I agree, especially when it comes to the Cleric.
I'm playing a Shaman and a Cleric.

It's the Melee capability and the Casting coming from a different pool that allows the Healer to be so versatile.

I love playing a Battle Cleric.
Our melee doesn't do much, it adds some DPS, but mostly it lets us entertain ourselves while we watch for heals and let the DPS classes tear through a mob.


QFT

The only real damage we can do is against undead. Leave us alone, or we wont heal you.

[Mist1313]

I'd have to disagree. I love the fact that when playing a cleric, I can melee using endurance and heal with energy. The moment you start pulling from the same bucket, you will get the "Healbot". "Stand back and Heal". In groups you would be expected to save all your energy for healing. Plus for the most part, healers don't "Crank out the DPS". Its enough to contribute, but hardly extreme. I remember trying a rogue and I was hitting 3 digit dmg by lvl 3. Not so with my cleric.

Once you have actually played the other healer classes you might be able to comment on what I have posted and make sense. It is very extreme. And for the record certain healer classes can crank out the DPS ( Excluding cleric as I posted ). My solution works alot better than what has just now happened to Disciple. Clerics and shammy's are next. I would rather be able to solo, group and PVP but not be a god in either than to turn into another Disciple nerf.

P.S learn a little about other healing classes prior to posting.

Mist

[Lupich]

I agree, especially when it comes to the Cleric.
I'm playing a Shaman and a Cleric.

It's the Melee capability and the Casting coming from a different pool that allows the Healer to be so versatile.

I love playing a Battle Cleric.
Our melee doesn't do much, it adds some DPS, but mostly it lets us entertain ourselves while we watch for heals and let the DPS classes tear through a mob.

Once you have actually played the other healer classes you might be able to comment on what I have posted and make sense. It is very extreme. And for the record certain healer classes can crank out the DPS ( Excluding cleric as I posted ). My solution works alot better than what has just now happened to Disciple. Clerics and shammy's are next. I would rather be able to solo, group and PVP but not be a god in either than to turn into another Disciple nerf.

P.S learn a little about other healing classes prior to posting.

Mist

See the problem? Healers ARENT supposed to crank out DPS.

http://www.binarychaos.net/images/crymore.jpg

[Piety]

Unfortunatly many of us are coming from the pre20's point of view.
And it is hard to get a really good feel for a class at that point.
In my experience classes are generally designed to be fairly generic at the very early levels, and therefore able to solo the newbie trash.

As we level we learn new abilities we gain new skills as players. The class becomes more specialized and we are able to get a better feel for what is powerful and what is weak. We need a broader perspective to get a really good feel for all of the classes, healers and non healers alike.

So I am with holding judgment on what is overpowered and what is not till I get a few more levels under my belt.

Until then I'm going to continue to enjoy the most fun cleric I've ever played.
Ever.

Did I mention Ever?

[Mist1313]

I'd have to disagree. I love the fact that when playing a cleric, I can melee using endurance and heal with energy. The moment you start pulling from the same bucket, you will get the "Healbot". "Stand back and Heal". In groups you would be expected to save all your energy for healing. Plus for the most part, healers don't "Crank out the DPS". Its enough to contribute, but hardly extreme. I remember trying a rogue and I was hitting 3 digit dmg by lvl 3. Not so with my cleric.

See the problem? Healers ARENT supposed to crank out DPS.

http://www.binarychaos.net/images/crymore.jpg

After the Disc nerf my plate wearing, healing, buffed, regenerating cleric can do the following things much better than my Disc. Kill faster, heal better, buff better, regen better, etc etc etc. And my cleric did DPS ok because I soloed to 15 and did it in a very short period of time. So don't even give me this pitch about how pathetic cleric melee is.

You want your cake and to eat it too... Not gonna happen.

Mist

[CrimsonEdge]

As a BMG, I am the least melee oriented of the Healers. Infact, I don't have a SINGLE damaging melee ability. As a BMG I can attain roughly 150-200 DPS while keeping my MT full on HP's while remaining full on HP and Mana (mostly).

We have a powerfull POWERFULL skill set, however, once we start getting it it's lights out. We do have some skills to help us out there, but it's nothing worth noting as the re-use timer on the skill is set to 5-10 mins.

We also have to lug around alot of reagents for our spells (vials of blood, many kinds of symbiotes) in which we have to harvest via dmg'ng ourselves or off of monsters. The trade off is fine though as I can prepare for a week in about 10 mins. Minor detail, but it's there.

TBH, it should NEVER cross a healers mind that he should be doing more damage than ANYONE. As a healer, WE should be doing the absolute least damage in the game. Should we be able to help in the damage? Sure, why not. Should we out damage anyone besides eachother? No.

I feel many of you comes from games like WoW where the Priest is one of THE most damaging classes in the game, or AC where again the Life Mage was insanely powerfull. I also feel that many of you play for the FOTM and don't actually pick a class that you'd enjoy I.E. the THOUSANDS of Berserkers in DAoC.

All classes get nerfed, changed, or buffed at one point. This is the basic flow of ANY game that has classes, skills, weapons, or... anything. We've seen it in FPS's like Counter-Strike (AWP's got nerfed). We've seen it a PLETHORA of times in Diablo. Hell, we've even seen it in RTS's and Racing games. It's a natural part of how things work.

MMO's would be so much better if people just picked a class that they enjoyed instead of finding enjoyment in the FOTM. If you roll a healer, learn to heal. If you're a tank, TANK SOME. If you're an arcane caster, do some nuking. If you're an offensive fighter, fight some. But please, for all that is holy, don't think that you'll be doing LOADS damage as a healer.

[Kiste]

You want your cake and to eat it too... Not gonna happen.

Mist
The only way to make healers something more than a mere healbot is to have their DPS and their heals draw from different point pools. This is the basic design for 3 of the 4 healer classes and you can be damn sure it was intentional. The exception is, of course, the BMG but that class can, to a certain extend, heal _by_ doing damage.

I really wonder if you play on a PvP server. If yes, then please note that 90% of the player base doesn't give a sh|t whether healers are overpowered in PvP because they live longer.

[Parmon]

I play a cleric level 23 almost 24 so i can only comment on clerics.

First off cleric melee does take from the energy pool when the cleric is using Power of Renewel. Every time i swing it takes a bit of my energy.

Clerics seem to be more about heal stacking than straight healing touch. If i throw on a hot on the tank and just start doing my abilities the tank and group will stay up on health and because my tank has a constant source of health for those 20 seconds the rest is spent regening mana.

With that I never lose energy unless several different group members are taking damage. This is overpowered when i can finish a purple 5 dot pull on full.

The answer on clerics is not to make their hits take energy but to increase the energy cost of the other heals to take into account mana regen. (Other heals being power of renewel and alleviate)

[Garjala]

Vanguard needs to adjust these classes so that melee specials start using energy as well as endurance to use. This way if a healer wants to crank out the DPS its going to cost them alot of energy. Blow your wad on DPS and you won't be healing anything. This way the class will still be viable as a group healer. Pvp will balance out a bit better and soloing will still be possible. Its that easy... except for the math.

And your solution would kill solo totally for at least shamans. All shaman spells use power like popcorn, so if you nerf melee abilities that way it means no solo for shaman as you would run out of power way before any mob dies.

Besides unlike you say those melee hits are NOT free. Both of them cost quite a lot of endurance which limits their usability in a way which is perfectly fine.

[Desdemona]

Your solution is downright horrible given that this is Vanguard and not another MMO.

The instant you start forcing healers to use energy for things other than healing, they lose all right in the eyes of most people to do anything but heal.

Your suggest takes what little fun this game has given healers and strips it away.

That is the trade-off you pay for letting healers not be healbots - they're overpowered because they can do enough damage to kill a mob while negating that mbos damage. It might take 10 minutes, but they can kill mobs other classes can't.


I've played every healing class but a shaman. Blood mage uses energy for EVERYTHING and it is NOT a pretty picture. If you don't pay total attention you're screwed when things get bad because you don't have the power to heal yourself. The ONLY reason that blood mage works is because two if its heals are lifetaps. When I'm in a group pretty much the only spells I cast are those two life taps - they let me make sure that my mana is put to use for the reason I'm there; healing.


The sad truth is that there is no solution to the "problem" - there is no problem. Under the chosen game design healers will always be better at soloing. The only way to stop it is take away the ability to regenerate energy - and in the process hurt group play.

I don't know why people keep making such a big deal - who cares. Healers can solo better than non-healers, suck it up and stop trying to kill higher level mobs or higher challenge mobs.

[Eldahir]

I agree with OP, partially. I won't speak of other healing classes, just cleric which I got at 22 atm.

Currently, aside from replenishing strike, I got three melee abilities to spam with. Maul of divinity, smiting blow and hand of censure. Maul is a short recharge with high damage (+ a short group dmg buff), smiting blow is a high damage with medium recharge (+ a mob dmg debuff) and pretty much every cleric ought to know hand of censure.

Atm, how it goes, I only use maul and smiting blow since that is all I got endurance for and they both outshine hand by miles. Hand has been pretty much useless. If Sigil would add energy cost to maul and smiting blow, that would even up our dps as they wouldn't be spammed, but also make hand more used. Hand could very well be left as our endurance only attack since that skill is average at best, and we do need one endurance attack too.

Even with that, clerics would still be very powerful and most likely one of the FOTM classes.

@Parmon
Clerics are healers first and foremost so I don't think screwing with our healing is the best idea. If they mess up cleric healing, then they need to just as well mess every other healing classes healing to put things on par. When the time of our balancing comes (soon I hope), they should concentrate on getting out dps down, not healing.

Besides, if our mana costs get nerfed, how did you plan on lasting in raids and such? I seriously doubt you wanna go there toe to toe with some AEing thing to desperately leech few mana with replenishing strike. At least I don't.

[Garjala]

Even with that, clerics would still be very powerful and most likely one of the FOTM classes.

Hehe, based on what I have read I am pretty sure that if/when Sigil continues healer tuning clerics will be next to get hit to head by nerfbat.

Shamans are unlikely to get hit that hard as they already seem to be weakest of all 4 healer classes.

[Parmon]

@Parmon
Clerics are healers first and foremost so I don't think screwing with our healing is the best idea. If they mess up cleric healing, then they need to just as well mess every other healing classes healing to put things on par. When the time of our balancing comes (soon I hope), they should concentrate on getting out dps down, not healing.

So you are saying that it is perfectly ok to finish every single pull a group does against a higher level mob with full energy? I am also only talking about two of our heals which seem to be the biggest issues.

I am only talking about two of our heals. the heal over time and the heal on melee. These two abilities having higher energy costs is not messing with our heals to be less effective. It is making it so we cannot last forever, we have a limit.

Drop my dps in half and all it will do is make fights longer, it will not make it more likely for me to die as i can keep myself up forever.

[Eldahir]

So you are saying that it is perfectly ok to finish every single pull a group does against a higher level mob with full energy?

Depends on mob difficulty and how good your tank and group is. I sure wouldn't end up with full mana on a "purple 5 dot pull" (if it conned like that to entire normally geared group, average tank, no stuns, not a low hp caster mob, etc) like the one on your example. Of course that example was very vague.

And usually from what I've seen, the pulls in dungeons are 2-3 mobs on average. So, if you compare our mana usage to a normal dungeon pull that would be "purple 5 dot" to everyone in group, I'd say it is just right.

edit*
I might agree on you with the heal on hit buff thing though. I just got it this level so I haven't looked it intensively yet. I haven't really made up my mind what to think of the thing. I also haven't observed how much mana it used per hit.

[Parmon]

Sorry i should give some more info

Group was level 22 and 23. only 5 members

Cleric
Warrior
Bard
Psion
Sorc

Location is the top of Skawlra Rock again Council members They con purple to me and red to the tank. The bard pulls and I place a heal over time on him. the tank takes enough damage for the first tick of my HoT to not overheal and then i start to melee. my HoT does 411 hp a tick. that along with me using all my melee abilities triggering power of renewel means i only have to cast one healing touch the entire fight. The mob dies and i am full energy

Second pull we grab two and the psion crowd controls the second and we rinse repeat. Not at any time were there pulls including the mosquitos that poison the group did i have to use the least bit of effort to keep up. these are 3 mob pulls and the poison is aoe



Second example although not against purple mobs is a small group. Just myself in a bard in the lycium at koan's rush. We were able to duo everything in the instance from single pulls to 3. Able to two person Ghaldrid without problem


My stats
-------
149 Vit
200 Wis
2900 Energy
212 Healing Focus (18.4% Heal bonus)

In group Heals do

Healing Touch III - 940
Alleviate II - 411 tick x 4 ticks = 1644 HP over 18 seconds
Rejuvenate II - 1701
Power of Renewal I - 48 to 52 per swing

[Eldahir]

Sorry i should give some more info

Group was level 22 and 23. only 5 members

Cleric
Warrior
Bard
Psion
Sorc

Location is the top of Skawlra Rock again Council members They con purple to me and red to the tank. The bard pulls and I place a heal over time on him. the tank takes enough damage for the first tick of my HoT to not overheal and then i start to melee. my HoT does 411 hp a tick. that along with me using all my melee abilities triggering power of renewel means i only have to cast one healing touch the entire fight. The mob dies and i am full energy

Second pull we grab two and the psion crowd controls the second and we rinse repeat. Not at any time were there pulls including the mosquitos that poison the group did i have to use the least bit of effort to keep up. these are 3 mob pulls and the poison is aoe



Second example although not against purple mobs is a small group. Just myself in a bard in the lycium at koan's rush. We were able to duo everything in the instance from single pulls to 3. Able to two person Ghaldrid without problem


My stats
-------
149 Vit
200 Wis
2900 Energy
212 Healing Focus (18.4% Heal bonus)

In group Heals do

Healing Touch III - 940
Alleviate II - 411 tick x 4 ticks = 1644 HP over 18 seconds
Rejuvenate II - 1701
Power of Renewal I - 48 to 52 per swing

Well, first of all you are pretty well geared on healing focus. Wether our heals should be nerfed because gear is too good can be argued. I'd say it's gear that needs toning down, instead of nerfing the majority that is less geared.

There are also other things to take on account, like groups psionist who are the best mana regen buffers in Vanguard. Also, indirectly contributing to your mana by crowd controlling. So it might as well be argued that crowd controlling needs it mana cost upped. Or maybe duration nerfed so you get to heal more ;)

And noticed you mentioned using all your melee abilities. So you prolly agree too that the spammed maul and smite could use a mana cost? :)

[Parmon]

Well, first of all you are pretty well geared on healing focus. Wether our heals should be nerfed because gear is too good can be argued. I'd say it's gear that needs toning down, instead of nerfing the majority that is less geared.

There are also other things to take on account, like groups psionist who are the best mana regen buffers in Vanguard. Also, indirectly contributing to your mana by crowd controlling. So it might as well be argued that crowd controlling needs it mana cost upped. Or maybe duration nerfed so you get to heal more ;)

And noticed you mentioned using all your melee abilities. So you prolly agree too that the spammed maul and smite could use a mana cost? :)

If an energy cost was added to the melee abilities i wouldn't use them. Only opting for auto attack, Replenishing Strike.

Maul of divinity would need to have its effect timer increased back to beta length for an energy tag to make it worth while.

*To note healing focus items already suffered a halving but i wouldn't be opposed to another or a reduction in the % bonus.

Edit: to clarify i know that our melee abilities are for the direct benefit of the group I just don't see their added utility worth a cost increase

[Eldahir]

If an energy cost was added to the melee abilities i wouldn't use them. Only opting for auto attack, Replenishing Strike.


Yap. It would reduce our dps in groups and reduce our soloability due to running out of mana faster.

Clerics are "not" balanced, and that would be one working solution to tune us down. Anyway, for better or worse, see you after nerf ;)

[EonBlue]

Yap. It would reduce our dps in groups and reduce our soloability due to running out of mana faster.

Clerics are "not" balanced, and that would be one working solution to tune us down. Anyway, for better or worse, see you after nerf ;)

It wouldn't change the way I play much. I would just stop chain casting anethema.

Use the 10% extra dmg skill every 30 seconds and use the +21 to damage skill every 20. Replenishing strike whenever its up, hand of censure whenever there is free endurance.

Play every dungeon once really conservativly. After that you know where the adds are/hard encounters and you can use skills accordingly. The only time there will ever be a mana issue for a cleric is if there are uncontrolled adds or the tank just sucks. If I sit there and do nothing but heal bot I generally find I end most fights full mana.

As for soloing it might keep us from killing 4 dots solo, but it certainly wouldnt stop us from killing 3 dots or mulitple 2 dots. The fact of the matter is we may be able to kill 4 dots right now but it certainly isnt time efficient so why would we? I would most certainly hope we dont get nerfed without some [serious] studying of peoples logs, including time stamps as a consideration.

[Dradiin]

Hehe, based on what I have read I am pretty sure that if/when Sigil continues healer tuning clerics will be next to get hit to head by nerfbat.

Shamans are unlikely to get hit that hard as they already seem to be weakest of all 4 healer classes.

Yes yes we suck ! :D

No nerfy me !:rolleyes:

[Garjala]

Yes yes we suck ! :D

No nerfy me !:rolleyes:
Actually shamans were probably the first class to get tuned ("nerfed") so it was also natural that we were weakest.

[Piety]

IWith that I never lose energy unless several different group members are taking damage. This is overpowered when i can finish a purple 5 dot pull on full.


In my experience the amount of energy I walk away from a fight with depends on the make up of the group.

When I roll with my Psi and Sorci SO's and no one else, I am often struggling to keep my energy up. They are both cloth casters, and enjoy dealing out as much DPS as possible. This means that I rarely have time to use my controversial melee skills, because I am either trying to keep them alive, or the mob is dead before I get more then one or two swings off.

We have picked up a Warrior a couple of times, and he's very good. Generally the occasional HOT is enough to keep him in a safety zone, but sometimes i need a stronger heal to keep him going.

The number of mobs, level of mobs, number of Dots and how much the others pull aggro all have an impact on the energy pool I walk away with.

If all I need is an HOT to keep my Tank up has more to do with the fact that things are going well, then my heals being overpowered.

[Karandor]

It wouldn't change the way I play much. I would just stop chain casting anethema.

Use the 10% extra dmg skill every 30 seconds and use the +21 to damage skill every 20. Replenishing strike whenever its up, hand of censure whenever there is free endurance.

Play every dungeon once really conservativly. After that you know where the adds are/hard encounters and you can use skills accordingly. The only time there will ever be a mana issue for a cleric is if there are uncontrolled adds or the tank just sucks. If I sit there and do nothing but heal bot I generally find I end most fights full mana.

As for soloing it might keep us from killing 4 dots solo, but it certainly wouldnt stop us from killing 3 dots or mulitple 2 dots. The fact of the matter is we may be able to kill 4 dots right now but it certainly isnt time efficient so why would we? I would most certainly hope we dont get nerfed without some [serious] studying of peoples logs, including time stamps as a consideration.


Yes soloing 4-dots and hard 3-dots is very time consuming and unless for a quest is not worth it at all for a cleric. Hell chain killing same level 2-dots was faster xp than doing same level 3-dots at level 17.

As far as healing in groups goes I think that like most MMOs balance will be a bit wonky at low-mid levels. All I know is the healing classes in this game are the best I have ever seen. Hopefully it stays this way.

Oh and for the person that thinks think hand of censure sucks check your damage logs and see the DoT from it. It is actually the best damage/end of any of our abilities. Use it at the start of fights and then whenever you have extra endurance to burn.

[Blightless]

Yes soloing 4-dots and hard 3-dots is very time consuming and unless for a quest is not worth it at all for a cleric. Hell chain killing same level 2-dots was faster xp than doing same level 3-dots at level 17.

As far as healing in groups goes I think that like most MMOs balance will be a bit wonky at low-mid levels. All I know is the healing classes in this game are the best I have ever seen. Hopefully it stays this way.



The Disciple nerf didn't completely castrate us as many people think. When it fist happened I was level 20, and still taking on level 22 3 dots with a slight stun. Took forever. Was by no means worth it unless it was for a quest, and there was nothing in the area that was 2 dot.

I think that is the best balance that we are going to find for soloing things, especialy when it comes to healers "I can kill it, but it's not worth my time."

As far as energy costs on the melee abilities... sure, if you want to make healers rare rather than plentiful as they are now. I havn't played many MMOs, but for most that appears to be the major hitch in finding a party. Getting someone to make sure you don't die.

A lot of people are seeing this as an oportunity to finaly play a healer without being nothing more than a healbot. This is the vision that they have for healers, and have had for them for them since I started folowing the game 6 months back. I like that vision.

[Blackmoon]

The group centric design of the game makes it *premium* that groups are fairly easy to form. The most important ingredient to that ease is a large availibility of healers. Anyone who has wasted hours in a MMOG hunting for a healer knows how miserable that can be, and VG has made sure healers are strong and interesting so there are lots of them around.

If you look at the population spreads of various classes you will find VG to have some of the most even distribution of any game ever. That means they are all well-designed classes and fun in their own way. The only close-to-broken class currently is the rogue I would say.

Yes Bloodmage can do 80% of a pure mage damage, and heal etc. Is that overpowered? 1 on 1 it is perhaps, but one on one balancing can lead to very unhappy group experiences, that is why I never trust players general envy crys and desire for "balance" Give me an unbalanced and fun game anyday over a balanced and boring one (EQ2 for example)

Dont let envy rule the world!

[Roguefox]

in my opinion, they just need to reduce the mitigation we recieve from armor a little bit(5-10% or so, higher than the medium armor wearers, but a little less than the protective fighters). if we take more damage from those 3/4-dot mobs, we either won't be able to heal through it fast enough to keep up, or, with our low dps, we'd run out of energy from healing ourselves long before we killed the mob. reducing our damage any more would turn us completely back into healbots and you'll lose all of the FOTM clerics as well as as good portion of the veteran clerics who wanted a change from the healbot role. and changing our healing is just plain out of the question, might as well just remove clerics and reroll us as paladins if you want to do that.

[sephira]

Since starting this game I have played Cleric to 15, Disciple to 17 and Shaman to 19. Mostly I have played to get a feel for the different healer classes. These classes are overpowered. The main reason they are overpowered is because they all have good melee skills attached to them. My 19 Shaman has 2 very good energy free attacks. Disciple had good melee skills ( Its still not that bad ). Cleric seemed to have the weakest melee but still doable.

Vanguard needs to adjust these classes so that melee specials start using energy as well as endurance to use. This way if a healer wants to crank out the DPS its going to cost them alot of energy. Blow your wad on DPS and you won't be healing anything. This way the class will still be viable as a group healer. Pvp will balance out a bit better and soloing will still be possible. Its that easy... except for the math.

Anyway... these are my thoughts.

Varking
Mist - 19 Shaman - Using the Nukie Bird
Handsome - 17 Disciple -
Whip - 15 cleric

Cya

I just say no !!! I dont care if some people solo every available mob. I really dont. You want sigil to balance out the best class definition of a shaman i ever played ? Back to "press the heal button forever" ? Actually this class definition is what keeps me in game most. First time i really have fun with a shaman/healer.

If you really played a shaman you probably recogniced that the endurance is down after 4 maybe 5 melee hits and if i start casting i loose allready power i need to heal.

[Quinalla]

No, don't change the way clerics/disc/shaman can use melee abilities with endurance to do something else besides heal in the fight. If these melee abilities do too much, then lower their damage, do not turn healers into healbots. There already is some risk in using melee abilities because of global cooldown on heals when you use them. I do anticipate them lowering damage on cleric melee abilities some, especially on the ones that buff our group. I haven't played a shaman high enough to get a feel for their damage, so I am not sure about them.

And hand of censure does not suck. Solo, don't spam it, let the "dot" run its course. Grouped it uses/applies weaknesses and if either or both can happen, then it helps increase group dps. I know the rogues I group with regularly love blind.

For the example of fighting 4-dot purples/reds, sounds like the mob damage is way, way too low and any healer would end the fight with full energy with the dps you described with the rest of the group the same. 4-dots are definitely not all created equally. I have found some with high and spiky dps and others that a clothie can tank pretty well :p

[Vidrak]

The thing that Parmon completely and utterly fails to see, is the fact all healers have the exact same spells. We can ALL do this HoT business all day long. How can you say the CLR one is OP'd when every other class has a comparable one? It just doesn't make sense.

You say your heal does 411 per tick. That is what, 1200-1600 dmg healed. So basically, your tank is a badass, he doesn't even need healing in the group. Just because your tank is good and can't die doesn't mean CLR's heals need to get nerfed.

What needs to happen is make mobs harder. AKA, ramp up DMG by at least 2x. This game (at least the adventuring sphere) is a complete joke right now. And it isn't because of any one class being OP'd. It is because the mobs are downright weak.

[Azyel]

Once you have actually played the other healer classes you might be able to comment on what I have posted and make sense. It is very extreme. And for the record certain healer classes can crank out the DPS ( Excluding cleric as I posted ). My solution works alot better than what has just now happened to Disciple. Clerics and shammy's are next. I would rather be able to solo, group and PVP but not be a god in either than to turn into another Disciple nerf.

P.S learn a little about other healing classes prior to posting.

Mist

I do not agree. As someone mentionned previously, as soon as our melee abilities take from the energy pool, we will be asked to stand back and heal range by every group like it is in every other MMORPG. If there is a problem that some of the classes do to much dammage, i am sure Sigil will lower the dammage or raise the endurance cost of those abilities. Starting to drain from the energy pool will bring back healing classes in the stone age. Vanguard has done a great job in making healers fun, it would be very sad to see this go.

[Parmon]

The thing that Parmon completely and utterly fails to see, is the fact all healers have the exact same spells. We can ALL do this HoT business all day long. How can you say the CLR one is OP'd when every other class has a comparable one? It just doesn't make sense.

You say your heal does 411 per tick. That is what, 1200-1600 dmg healed. So basically, your tank is a badass, he doesn't even need healing in the group. Just because your tank is good and can't die doesn't mean CLR's heals need to get nerfed.

What needs to happen is make mobs harder. AKA, ramp up DMG by at least 2x. This game (at least the adventuring sphere) is a complete joke right now. And it isn't because of any one class being OP'd. It is because the mobs are downright weak.

I didn't say nerf heals. I said increase energy cost on two of the heals we get. I'm not ignoring the fact that all healing classes get the same basic heals but my suggestion wasn't really focused on other classes. Power of Renewel is not a heal to be ignored as you just did. The tank most certainly took more damage than 1600, I just heal the group for 50 health every single melee attack i do for an energy cost that is almost nill

I will let my bard duo buddy know you think he is a badass tank though. It will make his night.

One of the cool things about this thread is being able to read what views and experiences others have.

[Vidrak]

I didn't say nerf heals. I said increase energy cost on two of the heals we get. I'm not ignoring the fact that all healing classes get the same basic heals but my suggestion wasn't really focused on other classes. Power of Renewel is not a heal to be ignored as you just did. The tank most certainly took more damage than 1600, I just heal the group for 50 health every single melee attack i do for an energy cost that is almost nill

I will let my bard duo buddy know you think he is a badass tank though. It will make his night.

One of the cool things about this thread is being able to read what views and experiences others have.
Even then, you are not healing the group tank for over 1k with the power of renewal, unless you are killing horribly slow (you would need like 10-15 rounds of combat to do that). Your tank has less than 2600 HP? I doubt it. Buffed, even I have close to that, and I am lvl 20.

This is exactly why I think mob DPS needs to be boosted. And I think we can all agree, this does not show CLR's are OP'd. Healing 1600-3k damage in one fight is a complete joke to any healer class, a complete joke. Now when you have 5 red 4-dot adds, that is when we need to shine. If you nerf Heals (in amount or energy cost) some content would be impossible with a CLR.

You don't think healers are balanced well for healing purposes solely? I would say we are one of the most balanced archetypes (I mean, look at tanks, PAL's have like 2x the defense of a WAR or DRK, haha). All our healing spells are so similar, it seems pretty even to me.

DSC's heal through END attacks, not even using mana. SHMs have a heal that makes the target totally Invulnerable for 4s. We all have our benefits, and our HoT is the CLR's at the moment. I don't think nerfed this or all our heals is a good thing to do. The heals need to be left alone, DPS and mob difficulty need changing.

Some more random thoughts from me :)

[GarudaPrime]

The OP is just making a troll post, check his history, and for the love of God stop feeding the retard :rolleyes: .

[EonBlue]

If you want to stop healers from being able to solo just give all 4 dot + mobs a minor heal for themselves only with a 30sec to 1 min recast. It will obliterate healers abilities to solo. It's stupid and unnecessary but I'm biased.

Offensive casters limitation is getting hit, If they can get hit they die.
Melee classes limitation is hp, If they run out of hp they die.
Healer limitation is damage, if they can't kill a mob before their mana bar reaches zero they die.

[imurmstr]

My 2 cp is that healers need to be left alone or bumped up a bit especially on pvp servers, I have 2 shammies a cleric a blood mage and a disc,lvls 16 to 18, yes still a bit young but old enough to get a feel i thought for their usefullness grouping in future or staying alive in pvp, Im here to tell all the whiners healers do die quick in pvp and pve, both being targeted from healing aggro if grouped or by those nasty stuns or snares we cant get away from in both as well, Any way thnx to those wonderfull so called balancing emergency patches that nerf instead of fix bugs that should be fixed, my disciple is practicaly useless in groups or soloing because of lack of crits means lack of my true healing abitity, as far as shammies go we are just about right considering our def is soso we have no anti spell abilities and the spells we do have are resisted 30 to 40 percent of time depending on the spell ,rambling on id like to say healing is more of a pain now than ever even if group is balanced when mobs spawn 2 to 4 to 1 killed its improbable to keep group healed with costs as they are and yes i use healing bonus items and dont do any thing but heal and med which i thought wasnt going to be the way of this game.

[Sick]

Since starting this game I have played Cleric to 15, Disciple to 17 and Shaman to 19. Mostly I have played to get a feel for the different healer classes. These classes are overpowered. The main reason they are overpowered is because they all have good melee skills attached to them. My 19 Shaman has 2 very good energy free attacks. Disciple had good melee skills ( Its still not that bad ). Cleric seemed to have the weakest melee but still doable.

Vanguard needs to adjust these classes so that melee specials start using energy as well as endurance to use. This way if a healer wants to crank out the DPS its going to cost them alot of energy. Blow your wad on DPS and you won't be healing anything. This way the class will still be viable as a group healer. Pvp will balance out a bit better and soloing will still be possible. Its that easy... except for the math.

Anyway... these are my thoughts.

Varking
Mist - 19 Shaman - Using the Nukie Bird
Handsome - 17 Disciple -
Whip - 15 cleric

Cya


Disciples are supposed to have a stronger meelee ability then most healers.heh

[Eldahir]

DSC's heal through END attacks, not even using mana. SHMs have a heal that makes the target totally Invulnerable for 4s. We all have our benefits, and our HoT is the CLR's at the moment. I don't think nerfed this or all our heals is a good thing to do. The heals need to be left alone, DPS and mob difficulty need changing.

Some more random thoughts from me :)

Completely agree, all the healers from the archetype have their healing "speciality" and their healing power pretty balanced, it's unfair that clerics speciality would get screwed and others left as it is. Might just as well delete clerics and give people paladins as return.

Mob damage is one thing to increase the overall difficulty which is much needed, but balancing healers should be done with adjusting our survivability (as in armor, dodging, parrying, blocking, runes, etc), utility and dps. Clerics should imo have lowest dps of all healers since we can take most beating, that is a fair tradeoff.

Also, I find it damn annoying that they are adjusting mana costs and such before even having any decent cleric plates in game with wis and energy. Guess we're set to having medium armor on if we want to be efficient in healing?