[Calibix]

Originally Posted by Bonz

Maybe you are right.

In your claims... are you talking about blue 3-dots every once and awhile using your racial ability and the heal and still being under 50% hp. Because, if its not an overcon it's possible, it's just not efficient. We just can't clean em up.

Also.. same for tanking.. if you are talking tanking 4/5 dot evencons as well as DK, pally or WAR?

---------

If this is the case, then you are doing something that all of us are not, which we would appreciate you helping us figure that out. Out of all the boards, monks I've talked to and monks in our guild, no one makes the same claim that you have... but it's not impossible that maybe your stone stance is working differently or you are putting your AC past a sweet spot to gain mitigation or something of that nature? Maybe its itemization.. I don't know. Maybe your getting spammed with wards and HoTs and you dont' realize it.

Please enlighten us.. as you are currently the king of all monks.

Ask and you shall recieve!

My basic strat for all fight goes like this. Lately I've been waiting for my AA to go off before I launch my attacks. This adds a substantiantial amount of dps, and works towards concerving end. Then I usually throw up Iron Hands and secret of fire/ice. Bounce between cresent kick and Six Dragon Strike until jin gets high. Use ashen hand. Always try and use 1000 fist at your first oppurtunity. The 27 end cost ensures you won't be able to complete a full chain of 1000/thundering fist later in the fight. This is all in offensive stance.

If the mob hits hard enough to where I would actually use stone dragon, IT usually means i'll just find a differnt mob to kill.

Normal group I roll with is me, Ranger, Necro, Psionicist, Sorceror, and Shaman (bear). Tank anything in pantheon or CIS with the same techniques. Only real tough mobs are the golems in both zones. They auto attack for 500+ :/

Soon as our necro and psi get on, I let you know if I can successfully tank the Avatar of Mara and Kronus Infineum.

EDIT: Kronus and Avatar of Mara down. Mara was a joke, however the ecounter is bugged so we can't finish it. /sigh

TeH CaLiBiX

[Calibix]

Originally Posted by Aeronis

I won't be changing from Harmonious, because I don't see the point to Dragon style... If I wanted to be focused on pure strait DPS then I would have rolled a Ranger, which I already have for that purpose.

Because Devs have previously stated that monks are intended to be "top tier" dps. And because rangers are the butt end of so many jokes in MMO's.

Ranger down!!

TeH CaLiBiX

[Calculon]

Originally Posted by Murugan

Did they take away harmonious monk's stance that allows them to have 50% reduction to endurance costs? Because I haven't seen anyone say that, or read it on the patch notes.

I guess that is not a positive huh? The ability to setup/close pretty much as many chains as you want, use quivering palm or goading slap more... useless.

I would kill for a reduction to my endurance cost, I have thought about switching, and still might. Especially after I saw the notes where it said that later on you could reduce the 20% damage reduction, and even get it to 0!

I guess I haven't played it, but on paper it looks pretty good. I would say don't give up on it too easy, play around with new styles.

If you were just playing monk to tank, weren't you already facing an uphill battle? I remember tanking with my monk in FFXI, we weren't built for it there either but we were okay. With the right gear, etc. I could do it, not in every situation but it was fun. I don't think we will ever officially be tanks in this game, and I think that the majority of people who play monk are fine with this, that is why they rolled an offensive fighter and not a warrior. If you want to tank, go for it, but don't expect it to be easy and stop complaining when it isn't.

It's attitudes and threads like these that cause problems for some classes to be invited. In most games the unpopular and rarely invited classes aren't always that bad, but people are convinced of it. I know plenty of monks (different levels) who are doing just fine post patch. I look forward to my monk, and I really don't see how it was broken. It was nerfed a little maybe, it could use some improvement in some areas. But so could a lot of classes, if you want to reroll just reroll but why do you people need to convince everyone that the class is totally broken and useless? It isn't, you are OVER-EXAGGERATING. Don't believe me? Go read the other classes threads were they talk about how they were nerfed into oblivion. Now we clearly can't all be right, I mean someone IS doing damage, people ARE still leveling, people are having enough fun to keep logging in every day, the game hasn't ground to a halt because of this great "nerf".

example of what I mean:



Posted 9 days ago...

As we all know now, the sorcerer class was in fact ruined. Which is why no one plays them anymore, or invites them and they do 0 damage and constantly die even when trying to harvest trees. So here is hoping that monks don't face the fate of those poor poor sorcerer's (god forbid)

crane stance reduces endurance costs, i believe its 20%, not certain. crane also lowers damage by 20% and adds a meak 16% evade. so i HAVE to spam more skills to make up damage i lost in the stance and with crits less common than before its not that special. so the trade offs of the harmony stances really arent attractive.

and you dont see a problem with the majority of monks changing to dragon to keep their monks a viable dps??

[Aeronis]

Originally Posted by Calibix

Because Devs have previously stated that monks are intended to be "top tier" dps. And because rangers are the butt end of so many jokes in MMO's.

Ranger down!!

TeH CaLiBiX

A lot of things were said about monks. So far none of it has really turned out to be the case.

[sift]

My evasion dropped about 30% total. As a drunken monk who's built completely around tanking and counterattacking it hurts.

note: Tanking effectively on an offensive fighter (atleast to my experience) kills most of their dps.

Drunken Sway lost 20% of its bonus (Was 30%. Now 10, 12, or 15%) yet retained its -10% accuracy (until you get the final form, but by then, why do you really need it?) Making what was a decent tanking stance (as it could hardly hold aggro thanks to the -10% accuracy, but you could dodge the majority of attacks) and my first pick, into a stance with no real flavor and my second pick. Drunken Mastery Stance now dwarfs it with 10% attack speed increase and 5% dodge with no side effects (meaning I can hold aggro much better and I get half of the dodge that sway gave).

What I feel is most commonly over-looked is how tanking via evasion works vs tanking via sturdiness.

This is a very, very basic example:
Lets say you're fighting a mob that does 500 damage a hit.
Sturdy tanks: With 50% mitigation and 10% evasion, you take 250 damage a hit with the ability to occasionally evade an attack (1 in 10 theoretically). So after 10 hits, you should have taken very close to 2250 damage.
Evasive tanks: With 10% mitigation and 50% evasion, you take 450 damage a hit with the ability to evade, in theory, half of the attacks. On paper, that means that after 10 attacks you should have taken 2250 damage just like a sturdy tank.... however in field tests you may evade almost every attack, or get hit by every single one.
As a sturdy tank, if you fail to evade.. so what? That was just a little bonus for your overall mitigation anywho. As an evasive tank, if you fail to evade, you get squashed like a caster. Lets say all of those attacks hit the sturdy tank... he takes 2500 dmg. All of those attacks hitting the evasive tank deals 4500 dmg.

***Because of this, evasive tanks are a huge potential group risk. Sure, you may tank everything fine for 10 minutes or if you're lucky an hour, but when that unlucky streak comes around you're fall faster than you can feign death (especially with group content 4+ dots).
To balance this out, an evasive tank would need a higher evasion bonus than the sturdy tank would need a mitigation bonus.

In my personal tests before the nerf to evasion and drunken sway I could tank nearly aswell as a warrior (aside from the streaks of bad luck that would kill me) with something like 62% evasion and 20% total mitigation. If I wanted to hold aggro I had to use abilities which killed my dps and lowered my chance to counterattack or I could switch stances, which dropped my evasion by atleast 25%, and made me a somewhat crappy tank.

So sure, it sounds ridiculous to have the ability to evade 60% of all attacks... but with 2 or more mobs on you (let alone 3+ dots) successfully hitting you, you realize that even 60% isn't enough to be a good tank.... it's just enough not to be a healer's nightmare... most of the time.

After the last patch, I can't really tank anymore. I can take a few hits here or there, but using my monk as a main tank for even a good group would be ridiculous (even taking into account I've built myself for tanking since day one).


edit: sorry for the long post

[Bonz]

Originally Posted by Calibix

Ask and you shall recieve!

My basic strat for all fight goes like this. Lately I've been waiting for my AA to go off before I launch my attacks. This adds a substantiantial amount of dps, and works towards concerving end. Then I usually throw up Iron Hands and secret of fire/ice. Bounce between cresent kick and Six Dragon Strike until jin gets high. Use ashen hand. Always try and use 1000 fist at your first oppurtunity. The 27 end cost ensures you won't be able to complete a full chain of 1000/thundering fist later in the fight. This is all in offensive stance.

If the mob hits hard enough to where I would actually use stone dragon, IT usually means i'll just find a differnt mob to kill.

Normal group I roll with is me, Ranger, Necro, Psionicist, Sorceror, and Shaman (bear). Tank anything in pantheon or CIS with the same techniques. Only real tough mobs are the golems in both zones. They auto attack for 500+ :/

Soon as our necro and psi get on, I let you know if I can successfully tank the Avatar of Mara and Kronus Infineum.

TeH CaLiBiX

I really hope that you are sincere... because I am not at your level and maybe a lot of monks around here aren't either and that it is why we might find your claims to be a little unbelievable. At the same time, the way this game is unfolding, I wouldn't be surprised to see a class be horrible at a low level then some kind of God at higher levels... where we are all pointing fingers at you claiming you are liar when maybe we are naive.

or like I said, maybe once AC gets passed a certain break even point, adding more really makes a different.. or maybe your shaman is just that good, he wards you and your psi is charming mobs while your entire group just eats through them before getting hit.

Either way, your experience doesn't seem to be the same as many of us, so that is why i asked, trying to be respectful. You seem to be very proud of your abilities and that would give me hope. I'd shut up and just get back to work.

I am curious though, why you wouldn't use boundless fist to set up enraged vulnerability and then use six dragon stance to exploit enraged and get the big guaranteed extra crit. This seems like a much greater use of endurance as opposed to building one extra jin using cresent kick.

Also curious why you wouldn't use jin surge to give your group more dps as opposed to using ashen hand?

I am not trying to challenge you.. I am sincerely interested in knowing. Not claiming your tactics are flawed, just showing you that they seem inefficient compared to a lower level monk... and I am really curious to know if I need to change tactics as I level because maybe the crit at your level isn't as high or some other factor has changed your tactic.

Hey.. I am still learning and not afraid to admit it, or admit if I am wrong.

[Calibix]

Originally Posted by Aeronis

A lot of things were said about monks. So far none of it has really turned out to be the case.

Agreed.

[Calibix]

Originally Posted by Bonz

I really hope that you are sincere... because I am not at your level and maybe a lot of monks around here aren't either and that it is why we might find your claims to be a little unbelievable. At the same time, the way this game is unfolding, I wouldn't be surprised to see a class be horrible at a low level then some kind of God at higher levels... where we are all pointing fingers at you claiming you are liar when maybe we are naive.

or like I said, maybe once AC gets passed a certain break even point, adding more really makes a different.. or maybe your shaman is just that good, he wards you and your psi is charming mobs while your entire group just eats through them before getting hit.

Either way, your experience doesn't seem to be the same as many of us, so that is why i asked, trying to be respectful. You seem to be very proud of your abilities and that would give me hope. I'd shut up and just get back to work.

I am curious though, why you wouldn't use boundless fist to set up enraged vulnerability and then use six dragon stance to exploit enraged and get the big guaranteed extra crit. This seems like a much greater use of endurance as opposed to building one extra jin using cresent kick.

Also curious why you wouldn't use jin surge to give your group more dps as opposed to using ashen hand?

I am not trying to challenge you.. I am sincerely interested in knowing. Not claiming your tactics are flawed, just showing you that they seem inefficient compared to a lower level monk... and I am really curious to know if I need to change tactics as I level because maybe the crit at your level isn't as high or some other factor has changed your tactic.

Hey.. I am still learning and not afraid to admit it, or admit if I am wrong.

100% sincere. Not trying to be a braggart or anything like that if it sounds that way. I just don't understand how some people are having such a rough go at it.

I guess in response to your BF question, i'm not really certain how vulnerabilties work. They all look like they apply the vunerabilties, not like they exploit them. But i'll test it out tomorrow while hopelessly try to raise my weapons skill while i wait for my group to get on.

In response to jin surge, It doesn't seem to affect casters, at least they have never noticed a difference when I asked them. And since 4 of the 6 people in my static group are casters, I get better dps constanly keeping secret of fire/ice on.

Nope, never really changed my tactics. Run up to mob, hit it, watch it die. Thats about it really, lol.

Although, i noticed today while i was trying to kill some grey agro while i was naked I was getting raped. Maybe the fact that I have really good gear is what is helping me out. I only have 2 slots that are blue items, 3(?) orange items, 1 red, and the rest yellow. When grouped, with Aum liat and stone dragon on i get upto about 20% mitigation, 30% evade or so, depending on buffs.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Calibix]

Originally Posted by sift

After the last patch, I can't really tank anymore. I can take a few hits here or there, but using my monk as a main tank for even a good group would be ridiculous (even taking into account I've built myself for tanking since day one).

Not ridicoulous, I do it all the time as dragon style. Only thing I'd ask for is for our dps to be raised to what it should be (monks in general, not dragon style) so agro management is a little easier. Ranger can peel off me fairly often, but likely waning palm works like a champ. Of course, rangers can pretty much tank just as well though :/

[Bonz]

Originally Posted by Calibix

100% sincere. Not trying to be a braggart or anything like that if it sounds that way. I just don't understand how some people are having such a rough go at it.

I guess in response to your BF question, i'm not really certain how vulnerabilties work. They all look like they apply the vulnerabilities, not like they exploit them. But i'll test it out tomorrow while hopelessly try to raise my weapons skill while i wait for my group to get on.

In response to jin surge, It doesn't seem to affect casters, at least they have never noticed a difference when I asked them. And since 4 of the 6 people in my static group are casters, I get better dps constantly keeping secret of fire/ice on.

Nope, never really changed my tactics. Run up to mob, hit it, watch it die. Thats about it really, lol.

Although, i noticed today while i was trying to kill some grey agro while i was naked I was getting raped. Maybe the fact that I have really good gear is what is helping me out. I only have 2 slots that are blue items, 3(?) orange items, 1 red, and the rest yellow. When grouped, with Aum liat and stone dragon on i get upto about 20% mitigation, 30% evade or so, depending on buffs.

Hope this helps a bit.

I see, yeah.. I don't have numbers of jin surge... nor familiar with how all the other classes can utlilize it, but that makes sense.

As far as vulnerabilities/exploits go.. they are confusing, but as a dragon monk we actually have an advantage because we can cuase and exploit enraged.

If you look at boundless fist in the info box, it will show 2 icons. the top one is enraged.. this is the vulnerability that applies to the mob when this attack lands. The bottom one is dazed.. this is the vulnerability that boundless fist exploits, so if the mob is dazed and you hit boundless fist, it will automatically give you a crit (in the case of boundless fist, that also opens a finisher).

If you look at six dragons strikes the spell creates the vulnerability shaken, but it exploits enraged... since it exploits enraged dragon monks (sorry not harms or drunkens) can actually cause a weakness and exploit it..

so if you start with boundless fist and it hits, enraged will show up in the vulnerability window... now hit and land six dragons strike and look at your combat window.. .you will see that six dragons strike crits for a lot more damage. Overall this uses 48 endurance for these 2 attacks, but the combination creates a lot more damage than anything else we have.

unfortunately, six dragon strikes does not start a finisher..

but boundless fist does start a finisher.. and if you want to automatically crit with boundless fist you need to hit that spell when the mob is in a dazed state of vulnerability...

the dazed vulnerability can be caused by certain ranger and rogue spells, so get with your ranger and have him tell you when he's using deadly shot, this will make the mob dazed, then you can hit boundless fist to crit which will then open your finisher (say flying kick), that opens advanced finisher (kick of the heavens) and overall your damage will be a lot better.

Use this chart to learn how to take advantage of the free extra damage that you get out of exploits and vulnerabilities.

VG Vulnerabilities

You can just check mark the classes you play with. Then get a chain goingFor example:

1. check monk and PSI.. you'll see that after you utilize six dragon strike you will cause the mob to become "shaken"
2. in which your PSI buddy should hit psionic blast and that will do a big damage crit but cause the mob to become "vulnerable"
3. this can be exploited by your sorcerer friend by using char or freeze.. in which cause "chilled" and "burning" vulnerabilities
4. in which your shaman just cleans the the mob using winter's roar or spirit strike

Get use to doing that chain and your group dps will be significantly increased

[Calibix]

Originally Posted by Bonz

I see, yeah.. I don't have numbers of jin surge... nor familiar with how all the other classes can utlilize it, but that makes sense.

As far as vulnerabilities/exploits go.. they are confusing, but as a dragon monk we actually have an advantage because we can cuase and exploit enraged.

If you look at boundless fist in the info box, it will show 2 icons. the top one is enraged.. this is the vulnerability that applies to the mob when this attack lands. The bottom one is dazed.. this is the vulnerability that boundless fist exploits, so if the mob is dazed and you hit boundless fist, it will automatically give you a crit (in the case of boundless fist, that also opens a finisher).

If you look at six dragons strikes the spell creates the vulnerability shaken, but it exploits enraged... since it exploits enraged dragon monks (sorry not harms or drunkens) can actually cause a weakness and exploit it..

so if you start with boundless fist and it hits, enraged will show up in the vulnerability window... now hit and land six dragons strike and look at your combat window.. .you will see that six dragons strike crits for a lot more damage. Overall this uses 48 endurance for these 2 attacks, but the combination creates a lot more damage than anything else we have.

unfortunately, six dragon strikes does not start a finisher..

but boundless fist does start a finisher.. and if you want to automatically crit with boundless fist you need to hit that spell when the mob is in a dazed state of vulnerability...

the dazed vulnerability can be caused by certain ranger and rogue spells, so get with your ranger and have him tell you when he's using deadly shot, this will make the mob dazed, then you can hit boundless fist to crit which will then open your finisher (say flying kick), that opens advanced finisher (kick of the heavens) and overall your damage will be a lot better.

Use this chart to learn how to take advantage of the free extra damage that you get out of exploits and vulnerabilities.

VG Vulnerabilities

You can just check mark the classes you play with. Then get a chain goingFor example:

1. check monk and PSI.. you'll see that after you utilize six dragon strike you will cause the mob to become "shaken"
2. in which your PSI buddy should hit psionic blast and that will do a big damage crit but cause the mob to become "vulnerable"
3. this can be exploited by your sorcerer friend by using char or freeze.. in which cause "chilled" and "burning" vulnerabilities
4. in which your shaman just cleans the the mob using winter's roar or spirit strike

Get use to doing that chain and your group dps will be significantly increased

Sweet man, thx for the infoz. Like I said i'll test it out a bit more in the morning. And will definetly relay the vulnerability info to group members. We were aware of them, but like i said, not fully sure on how they worked. Wish I had known that before we killed kronus today, might have shortened the fight a bit, lol. Actually, it would have went much faster if the necro hadn't FD mid fight. Kronus just went on a rampage after that, murdered the healer and the sorc. Luckily for our group shamans have battle rez, and I can rez healers in combat so we succeeded first try. It was fricking hilarious though. We made jokes about it on vent all day.

Six dragon strike doesn't start a finisher for you? or only after using it to exploit the vulnerability? Because I am 100% positive I have gone into a crit chain with Six dragon strike before. A little clarification would be splendid.

I said this on vgmonks, but i'll say it here.

Bonz if you were a women I'd ask you to marry me.
(mostly because you called me the king of monks, and i like the sound of that )

[niack]

")My monk was NOT a solo god. Monk was the worst solo class I've tried. Killing a couple 2dots at a time was already a challenge. Killing a 3dot was very hard and unreliable without outside help. And almost every other class had a much easier time. But maybe it was not about solo."

Yeah I had almost the same experience.....Other classes around me were tearing up the same mobs and I was barely killing them and having to rest after each one....I never did kill a 3 dot, even tried several 3-4 levels below... I hear others say though that the monks were too easy to solo with and that they were killing 3 dots 2 levels above them easily....I think my best crit ever was 400 (lvl16) and I had a ranger friend the same level that claimed he could crit for 2K....