[Cobalty2004]

Venge, the latest test patch notes is very sad. The coding fixes are nice, but for the warrior its a sad patch.

Will our notes be posted between now and the next LIVE patch I take it?

[Venge]

Originally Posted by Cobalty2004

Venge, the latest test patch notes is very sad. The coding fixes are nice, but for the warrior its a sad patch.

Will our notes be posted between now and the next LIVE patch I take it?

I am not sure what build our fixes were put into. If I remember correctly, just before the SOE transition and after, a multiple number of builds were already in the works so honestly I would not have a clue where we got put in.

But I do know this. The Bard, Shaman, and one more class was before us. I believe the Rogue was the 3rd one.

[Venge]

I hope you guys weren't expecting the drop down on warriors like before?

[Cobalty2004]

Originally Posted by Venge

I hope you guys weren't expecting the drop down on warriors like before?

What do you mean dropdown, like 20 lines of warrior notes?

No, but

Originally Posted by Venge

Btw, hoping the bug fixes and such are in the next patch...now when that patch comes. I dunno!

Oh well, we wait longer then

[Khaleel]

Originally Posted by Venge

Soloing:

Since this has been the hot topic as of late, I took more time on this than any of the issues. After a long night, myself and a few devs came to a general consensus that its not the warrior that's having a hard time in the solo game. Its other classes that have it too easy, meaning a good deal of overpowered abilities are still in game and have yet to be tweaked. I'll go back to the roots.

The intended solo game as Sigil described is 1 - 2 dot mobs. The warrior was actually built around this system when balance happened back in Beta 2. So in short, we are supposed to be able to handle 2 dots with relative ease and have some trouble with 3 dots. This is how we are currently. Now in comparison to other classes that are able to solo 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 dots with little to no risk is not intended and has already taken flight with changes (Gamewide). This means numerous changes will be occuring overtime:

- Smarter A.I., mobs noticing range differences will root/snare quicker.
- Higher resistances in general to mobs. Immunity on some.
- Much more dense areas so that grouping mobs are harder to split.
- Increased run speed on mobs.
- Increased mitigation/block/parry so melee combat is limited.
- Mobs are able to exploit as well.

This is not all pushed in favor of the warrior, but in general that the game's difficulty of solo/group content is not where it is supposed to be.

If anyone rolls a warrior in a MMORPG and expects to be able to solo as well as just about any other class then they are crazy. You don't roll a warrior to solo, warriors are group based characters, pure and simple. No game I have ever played has had a warrior, or really any tank class, be able to solo effectively.

If they change the mob dynamics or start nerfing things because a <insert class here> can solo better than a warrior then it's time to start thinking of changing games.

You can argue that there were changes that didn't make it into beta but now the way classes play in the solo game is the way everyone is used to it being. Sure, fix major bugs such as some classes being able to solo 5 and 6 dot mobs that they shouldn't be able to, I support that. However, to imply that because a warrior can't solo well is the fault of issues with other classes is just noobish.

You should be talking to SoE about positive major changes that the game needs such as adding high end content, fixing major issues with your class that are really issues with *your* class, bug fixes etc and stop trying to make everyone else's world a living nightmare because you chose to play a class that was not (or should have not) been intended to be a class that can solo well.

But, all things considered, it's certainly the right way to go to make the game less playable and enjoyable for folks given the current population numbers. Piss alot of people off by making it harder for them to accomplish things in game is always the right choice.

Disclaimer: No, I don't play a necro or cleric.

[Gecon]

Um, I can only disagree.

In Lineage 2, it was this way:

Tanks can solo, but they have to attack higher mobs than others. They kill them rather slowly, but as the mobs are higher, the tank still levels not too slowly.

Melee Damage Dealers can solo, but they have to attack lower mobs than others. They kill them very fast, but as the mobs are lower, the Melee DD doesnt level that fast either. Tyrants especially where really fragile, while Rogues could be hit for a bit and, more importantly, could go everywhere and cherrypick their mobs out of groups.

Bards, well there where two types. The elven variant (Swordsinger) could get insane defense rates for a non-tank class (especially both defense and evasion), while the darkelf variant could get really nice offense. Either of them where not bad soloers, even if they where no concurrence to a mage.

Summoners have to attack mobs that are much higher then themselves. Thats because summons are very expensive, and it was only worth summoning them if you had a good money gain. Summoners fell into the xp hole for fighting too high mobs.

Mages and Archers have to kite. They where brilliant soloers and grouped really seldom. Which was a shame, at least for mages. A Elven or Shillien Elder could keep them at max Mana all the time.

Healers, that depends:
- The buffer specialists Prophet and Warcryer can solo not too badly, because they can wear heavy armor and - can buff themselves. Naturally their base dmg and other properties are far from bright, but their ability to buff makes them hardly less effective than other classes.

- The healing specialists Bishop and Elven Elder can solo undead. The Bishop gets a broad range of spells against them, while the Elven Elder still at least gets one spell against them.

- The Shillien Elder (my class) is a god with party and an utter loser without, as their undead attack isnt updated anymore.


And in Vanguard itself, Dread Knight is actually one of the better soloer classes. Granted, they are not Necromancers, but they are really not that shabby. Paladin is not that good, because of damage output issues. Warrior is not really good, they have to kill 2dots of own level, unless their equipment rocks.

[Mortifera]

Originally Posted by Khaleel

You don't roll a warrior to solo, warriors are group based characters, pure and simple.

...unless there are 2 other tanks that can tank just as well, perform just as well in a group, bring more utility and <gasp> solo better...

Having said that, I play a warrior and I play to dungeon crawl in a group and raid, so I don't mind if blue 3 dots is all I get. But if I'm not doing better in groups and some other class solos 12 3dots at once, it has me wondering

[Errid]

The issue here Kaleel is not that warriors suck at soloing, its that other classes are far better at it than intended. Saying that oh thats the way its always been is no a valid excuse. As far as making it harder I think that there were MANY people that quit after launch because the game was to easy will consider coming back after this.

[Gecon]

Um, I'm sorry, but I dont see how they want to "fix" the fact that Paladin and Dread Knight are better at soloing, as long as:

- they want to have every tank in the same MIT and owning the same raid tank qualification

- they dont want to have Warrior any form of selfhealing

On top of that, Warriors have worse group buffing than Paladin, and worse CC (or to be more precise: none at all) than both other tanks.

[Khaleel]

Originally Posted by Errid

The issue here Kaleel is not that warriors suck at soloing, its that other classes are far better at it than intended. Saying that oh thats the way its always been is no a valid excuse. As far as making it harder I think that there were MANY people that quit after launch because the game was to easy will consider coming back after this.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. Even if some classes are better at soloing than they should have been then SoE is going to have to tread lightly before taking ability away from those classes or making it more difficult for those classes. Reason I say this is because we all know that the population numbers are kind of low. If they make it extremely hard to solo 3 dots (4 dot and up I agree shouldn't be soloable), but if they change lower con mobs too then that also affects EVERY class, not just the ones that can solo well. I play a class that is probably a pretty good soloer (Sorcerer). However, there is still a great deal of risk involved in me killing solo - a few strategic resists and I'm dead. I can't solo 4 dots with any efficiency. I can kill a 4 dot mob with the right conditions (room to kite it, it's not a caster mob, etc.) but I have never been able to kill one without having to use my best mana regen ability - which is on an hour timer. So, I can kill one 4 dot mob every hour if everything goes exactly perfectly. This is with high intel, high wisdom and maxed spell damage focus too by the way. Forget about 5 and 6 dot mobs, a sorc can't solo them. I don't do enough damage solo and if I used my best damage spell (which takes endurance, health and mana to cast) I'd kill myself before the mob was even half dead.

When I log in and can't find a group (happens a lot with low pop) then if I can't count on being able to make decent xp progress solo then I won't even bother staying logged in - and I bet there are alot of people that would do the same. Frustration levels will rise and people will end up leaving the game. I'm not of the opinion that radical nerfs should be made hoping people will come back to the game, they need to keep the people they have and make it a great gaming experience for them so that people will come back for that reason.

A great gaming experience doesn't equal not being able to find a group AND not being able to make decent xp solo. I'm also not of the opinion that this change will make finding groups easier because the changes that Venge talks about are targeted towards those classes that are great soloers and they are only a small portion of the population - but this change will affect all classes in one way or another. You still need a group today for the good group content (heroic+ quests, dungeons, etc.) and groups for those are few and far between. I can't see how this change will make finding groups easier for content people actually want to do.

We will have to wait and see what they do, if anything, but I'm leary that the changes they propose are actually the right ones.

[Cobalty2004]

Just checked all my abilities after patch, nothing has changed.

Don't forget Warders Bulwark tooltip bug!

[Pudsley]

Originally Posted by Gecon

Thats what Leap Attack did ? Cool, bring it back then ! Exactly what the Warrior class lacks, a way to move fast over the battlefield, when, for example, the Sorcerer is under attack by an Add.

I strongly vote for YES on the jump part if its really what I understand it is.

Actually Leap Attack sent you hurtling over the mob, hence the problem, you had to spin around mid air to continue attacking.

Luckily Venge stated that was what they are working on at this point, getting the distance right so you leap at the mob rather than over it.

[Pudsley]

I see a lot of people talking of how they consistently solo 3 dot mobs as a level 50 Warrior, frankly, I know exactly how to play my class and I'm far from ill equipped.

At level 50, wearing all Heroic level 53ish crafted gear, sporting a 96dps greatsword killing 3 dot mobs 3 levels lower than me is touch and go.

Some I can kill consistently, but the vast majority of 3 dot mobs I'm looking at a 20% success rate at best, some are downright impossible.

When I come across the easier 3 dots I kill impossibly fast, but frankly it's luck based, all it takes is for my Myr's Gift combo to miss or get interrupted, same with Strike Now triggered combo's and I'm going to die, I usually end up relying on my Varanjar racial ability of +25% damage every 30 mins to save my weak ass.

Tried def stance Sword and Board or dual wield (admittadely with not so shiny weapons) and the results were much the same, as stated before I know how to play my class, I'm an MMO vet, a raid tank, a very competent tank in VG and a VG Warrior since beta 3, been level 50 for quite some time now.

Killing 95% of 3 dots out there with a success rate of 90% or better is what I would call consistent.

[Mortezzah]

Originally Posted by Pudsley

I see a lot of people talking of how they consistently solo 3 dot mobs as a level 50 Warrior, frankly, I know exactly how to play my class and I'm far from ill equipped.

At level 50, wearing all Heroic level 53ish crafted gear, sporting a 96dps greatsword killing 3 dot mobs 3 levels lower than me is touch and go.

Some I can kill consistently, but the vast majority of 3 dot mobs I'm looking at a 20% success rate at best, some are downright impossible.

When I come across the easier 3 dots I kill impossibly fast, but frankly it's luck based, all it takes is for my Myr's Gift combo to miss or get interrupted, same with Strike Now triggered combo's and I'm going to die, I usually end up relying on my Varanjar racial ability of +25% damage every 30 mins to save my weak ass.

Tried def stance Sword and Board or dual wield (admittadely with not so shiny weapons) and the results were much the same, as stated before I know how to play my class, I'm an MMO vet, a raid tank, a very competent tank in VG and a VG Warrior since beta 3, been level 50 for quite some time now.

Killing 95% of 3 dots out there with a success rate of 90% or better is what I would call consistent.

I'm fine with our ability to solo 3 dots, if no one was able to solo 4/5/or 6s.

However, they (and I've been sounding like this broken record for about 5 months now) either need to:

Significantly increase Warriors

or on all 4/5/6 dots:

Significantly increase resists to certain spells (snare, roots, fear, and charms which allow monsters to attack other monsters)
Significantly raise monster speed or add in summon player ability
Significantly raise interrupts on self-heals

or do whatever so folks can't solo 4/5/6 dots.

Right now you have the Warrior as the worst solo'er (probably in the game), and at best equivalent in groups to other tanks (which are amongst the worst soloer's relative to other archteypes). And, I'm okay with all of that, if no one can solo 4/5/6s. Then with the promised tweaks to the Warrior, we should be fine and dandy.

[Pudsley]

Originally Posted by Mortezzah

I'm fine with our ability to solo 3 dots, if no one was able to solo 4/5/or 6s.

However, they (and I've been sounding like this broken record for about 5 months now) either need to:

Significantly increase Warriors

or on all 4/5/6 dots:

Significantly increase resists to certain spells (snare, roots, fear, and charms which allow monsters to attack other monsters)
Significantly raise monster speed or add in summon player ability
Significantly raise interrupts on self-heals

or do whatever so folks can't solo 4/5/6 dots.

Right now you have the Warrior as the worst solo'er (probably in the game), and at best equivalent in groups to other tanks (which are amongst the worst soloer's relative to other archteypes). And, I'm okay with all of that, if no one can solo 4/5/6s. Then with the promised tweaks to the Warrior, we should be fine and dandy.

Well written, I would say it's better to buff the mobs 4 dot and upwards, rather than nerf everyone else, and again with the proposed changes to a Warrior our 3 dot ability should go up, so yeah.....that works for me.

[Funkey]

Significantly increase resists to certain spells (snare, roots, fear, and charms which allow monsters to attack other monsters)

Hmmm interesting point. This alone would go a long way in stopping those classes who are the problematic ones with regards to kiting / soloing 4, 5 and 6 dot mobs from actually doing so. However it could, on its own, create problems with crowd control when grouping.

[Errid]

New patch notes from test:
- Warrior - Power Attack is no longer restricted to be usable in combat.

Woohoo for unneccisary changes. From what venge said earlier there are 3 classes ahead of us. thats 2 patches in a row with mass bard changes. with patches every 1-2 weeks looks like its going to be quite a while

[Cobalty2004]

Maybe some changes might happen just as AoC is released... w00t!

[Pudsley]

Originally Posted by Errid

New patch notes from test:
- Warrior - Power Attack is no longer restricted to be usable in combat.

Woohoo for unneccisary changes. From what venge said earlier there are 3 classes ahead of us. thats 2 patches in a row with mass bard changes. with patches every 1-2 weeks looks like its going to be quite a while

Whilst this is a relatively small change it helps me somewhat, the only time I get to go DPS is in a small group, usually three man, and honestly nothing lives long enough for me to keep powerattack on for 15 seconds.

If it's usable out of combat maybe I can actually get the Unyielding Might buff more often.