[mmorpeegee]

I quite enjoyed Rift, but really the rifts was just a little gimmick. At first they seemed like a nice bit of variety to break up the quest grind, but ultimately you realise that they are nothing more than little loot piñatas that pop out the ground occasionally. I would have much preferred to just have a bunch of extra dungeons instead.

But the technical aspect of it was really impressive. Can you remember way back in Vanguard beta when they talked about their Advanced Encounter System? To me, Rift was Vanguard 2.0 in almost every respect, the combat felt almost identical and worked in almost the exact same way, building up combo points instead of phenomena / jin points or whatever, and the rifts was just them taking the "AAS" idea and running with it a bit and making it more of an integral part of the game, rather than something that occasionally happens in a dungeon. But really it wasn't taken very far. It's cool that you can have what is basically as mini instance that appears out of the ground and you can step in to it, and it's all totally seamless. Technically impressive, but it was just a shame that what actually appears in that mini instance was just a bunch of duh mobs that wait to get picked off one by one.

But still, it was better than nothing right? And with GW2 I am guessing they take that technology to the next level and have all kinds of events happening in the world and scripted encounters. I don't know all the details on GW2, I just know that every time I have read about this game, I am struck by just how pro this team sounds. I am totally jaded too, but every MMO you read of is the exact same thing, even SWTOR, you go to a quest hub and fill up your journal, you go grind through them and then click LFG for the group quests, and then it's on to the next quest hub etc.. I am so freakin bored of the same routine. But with GW2 they are at least trying to change everything. They have questioned literally everything and come up with new approaches to everything and I gotta get excited about that. Like when I start reading and they talk about getting rid of the holy trinity, and I'm thinking yeah right.... suuuure you are, like that hasn't been attempted 50 times before. But then they say that they are doing it by having no healers and no dps and no tanks, you all just do everything yourselves, so everyone has to be active and it doesn't all fall on one person to heal etc. Maybe that will end up being boring, or maybe it will just be really noobified and having no tank/heal/dps/cc dynamic just means everyone stands around spamming their skillz and holding their thing. But maybe it will be good! And then I read about the grouping thing, how you can just solo anything you want and if someone wants to join you, they can. There is no XP penalty, and you don't need to lock or unlock the encounters etc, it just lets you both fight together and then you get increased rewards, and more people can join. Unlike Rift, they aren't just trying to provide WoW (or Vanguard) all over again but with more polish and a few twists, they are instead changing even basics like grouping and archetypes etc.

It might come back to bite me, but I just get the impression that the team is really talented. I never wanted to like the game because GW1 looked crap to me, but I can't help but be impressed. They seem smart and they are trying all kinds of new ideas. Maybe some stuff will be gimmicky, some stuff will be only a slight improvement on what went before, but I really want to see! And with a bit of luck we will finally get a game that hit the ball out the park. After all these failures and lame sorta-successes, there has to eventually be a game to really nail it right? It's statistics! Even if only 1% of MMORPG's is really good, we must be near 100 MMORPG's by now? Lol.

[Fozzik]

I'm still debating whether I want to create a huge wall of text to try and describe everything I've learned and seen about dynamic events in GW2 that makes me feel they are different.

In the meantime, someone else did an awesome job of laying down some of the high level design philosophy changes that GW2 is setting out to offer...

Definitely worth the read for anyone who feels the game sounds like Rift -
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cf...-Arenanet.html

[mmorpeegee]

Sounds amazing. It sounds to me like they are trying to make a proper online gaming experience. The instant travel and PVP lobby and stuff, sounds like it might not be the kind of game that appeals to someone who 'only' wants that immersive virtual world experience. But unlike all the other modern MMO's which are kind of half games half virtual worlds, this one is going full steam ahead as a pure game, and therefore (hopefully) going to hook us with pure quality gameplay.

I imagine doing a bit of questing and running around with my buddies, and then breaking it up by doing some PVP action which feels almost like joining an FPS server, only it's all part of the same game.

That is one thing that bugged me in WoW, is that I didn't really enjoy the PVE very much, and the PVP seemed very promising with those huge battlegrounds and arena matches and stuff. But it was so poorly balanced because it was trying to throw PVE balanced classes in to a PVP game and hope for the best and it didn't really work very well (from my perspective at least). But this game is built from the ground up with all this in mind. PVP fights are going to be more evenly matched and it's more about your skill than anything else.

It's a proper... game. Like the good ole days :P Only with massive scope because it's a proper PVP game mixed with a proper PVE experience, and hopefully both parts done well.

[Fozzik]

Originally Posted by mmorpeegee

Sounds amazing. It sounds to me like they are trying to make a proper online gaming experience. The instant travel and PVP lobby and stuff, sounds like it might not be the kind of game that appeals to someone who 'only' wants that immersive virtual world experience. But unlike all the other modern MMO's which are kind of half games half virtual worlds, this one is going full steam ahead as a pure game, and therefore (hopefully) going to hook us with pure quality gameplay.

I definitely agree that they are focusing on making the game play fun and interesting on a fundamental level, and making it really social rather than just parallel solo play. But at the same time, I do feel they are also building a pretty immersive world that will support suspension of disbelief and roleplay in ways that we don't see often in this genre. Sure, there's fast travel...but you don't HAVE to use it...it's just there for when you want to get to your friends quick or sell at the end of the night without the 10 minute hike.

They also offer a huge array of town clothes (with their own pane in the character window so you can switch outfits with a single button), a massive amount of armor dyes and ways to customize your look, they have mini-games and tons of voice acting and life in the cities. They provide the personal story that starts in character creation and provides permanent evidence of your choices / achievements in your personal area and journal. There are languages to learn, and your choices in conversations will change your character's personality...and change the way NPCs react to you (always answer in gruff ways, you become a tough guy and kids run away from you in towns).

Anyway...I think the game's going to be the total package. Not only providing some substantial differences from previous MMORPGs, but also providing some serious new meat in long-neglected aspects of the genre.

[mmorpeegee]

Wow didn't realise all that.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

I'm still debating whether I want to create a huge wall of text to try and describe everything I've learned and seen about dynamic events in GW2 that makes me feel they are different.

Don't worry Fozzik, I got this.

What makes Dynamic Events different can really be summed up in one word, "Cooperative." I bet you thought I was going to say "Dynamic", but to me, that's one of their less compelling features.

To me, Rift has a bunch of problems, such as lack of variety of rifts or that you're still competing with other players for contribution. To me, the biggest problem with rifts is that the focus is wrong. It's set up like you're "saving the world" from these rifts and invasions but you can't. You can't win. Save a town, it'll be taken over again 10 minutes later. It's a terrible reason to want to do something in the open world, and for that reason it gets boring quickly.

I don't think the problem with MMO questing is that it's not dynamic. For instance, if you go to the corner of the map and kill the harpies, smash their eggs, and rescue the prisoner, it really doesn't matter if it resets 5 minutes later as long as you're gone and don't come back. In your mind, at least to some degree of suspension of disbelief, you saved the day.

The real problem with quests is that they're isolating. You have to be on the same stage as someone else in order to do them. You compete with people you're not grouped with for spawns and ground items. If you do group up, it trivializes it because it doesn't scale.

The way to think about GW2's dynamic events is that it's like a whole world of truly cooperative quests. You go to an area and something is happening that everybody can take part in. You don't have to group, there's no xp halving or mob tagging. It scales up in difficulty with more people so it's always challenging. They chain together on success or failure, and yes that's dynamic and immersive, but to me the more important part of it is that it keeps people working together longer so they're more likely to start talking. Traditional quests or dungeons, you group up for as long as you need and then immediately leave. With GW2, because everyone gets full XP and loot for killing mobs, there's an incentive to stay with people because you're killing faster.

That's really what GW2 is about and why it's different. They want you to WANT to see other people in the open world. There's things like cross profession combos and anybody rezzing anybody which also supports this philosophy. There aren't any factions dividing the playerbase. The game automentors people down when doing lower level content so you can always play with friends regardless of level. DEs are actually designed to be as griefless as possible. Even things like gathering nodes let everyone get a hit on them. There's really no competition anywhere in the PVE world. They want you to play WITH people, not just NEAR them.

Forget dynamism, it's a great bonus which helps immersion and replayability, but it's just that, a bonus. Trying to make a fully cooperative, social, griefless PVE world is why people should be excited about GW2's dynamic events.

[mmorpeegee]

It all sounds awesome, although there are some obvious questions raised by their solutions too. I reckon overall it will be for the best though, but the obvious questions that come to mind are:

If everything scales up and down, will it harm your sense of advancement in the world? Just like how everyone got annoyed at Oblivion because you end up level 90 and some random passing wolf would kick your ass because it is now level 90 too. In GW2 I imagine you could be high level and really powerful but you go to help a low level friend kill some bats and now you are gimped down to the level of the bats, etc.

As for the everyone gets loot thing, the obvious concern with that is that the world is going to be inundated with cheap loot, like WoW and Vanguard etc. There wont be much (or any?) rare and special items, because even the biggest baddest boss mobs, you kill it with a group and everyone in the group gets the item. The whole thing in Everquest about "rare" loots and rare drops and annoying placeholders etc.. although it was annoying and time consuming, it meant getting an item like a FBSS was a huge deal. It made peoples day! But loot in modern mmo's is so common and regular, it becomes almost pointless. The reason we all remember the Short Sword of the Ykesha, is because it only dropped about once a day, so it was special. People would say, Hey did you hear?! Tommy got a yak today!! But if every group going through there who killed the mob, 6 yaks dropped, it ceases to be interesting.

Then you have got the anti-archetype system. Without the whole thing of people having roles to play, it makes me wonder if it's going to be dumbed down and too easy to actually play. The old way had its issues too, but at least in the tougher games like early EQ, tanks were on the edge of their seats trying to aggro all the mobs in sight so nobody got killed, healers were on the edge of their seat watching the health bars, and dps were frantically trying to smack down creatures before the group ran out of steam - and they were trying to do that without causing too much aggro and blowing all their mana too. But in GW2 if everyone can do everything and nobody has to save each other or perform any specific roles, then it makes me wonder if most fights are just going to be nothing more than spamming your best "win each fight" routine while holding your thing.

As for the thing about 'everyone who contributes to the fight gets something', is that based on damage dealt or what? If not then whats to stop people slacking off and doing 1% damage to a mob and getting the same loot as the guy who has been fighting away from start to finish? And if it is based on damage, then will that not take in to account someone who might be doing all kinds of crowd control type stuff, distracting mobs etc.. will they get less reward than the guy who just stood toe to toe doing the dps? And again, can you even do crowd control type stuff? Or is there no need for anything like that, and instead everyone just stands toe to toe and taps out their kill routine.


All just thoughts anyway. But like I tried to say above, I have doubts but I can easily give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. Unlike most other MMO's, this just looks like an A+ Team of people who really know their stuff. Hope they don't make me eat my words, but I'm pretty confident based on what I've read. Some of the stuff mentioned in these articles I've seen before and I know it works well. The "horizontal advancement" thing for example, that is pretty much how Shards of Dalaya works, and that to date is probably my favourite MMO. Anyone can make max level in about a month, but I played it around 3 or 4 years, because max level is kind of where the game starts. Same goes for the whole e-sports thing. Before MMORPG's even existed as they do today, I used to play Quake online on my 33.6 modem, and it was amazing, and that was pretty much played like an e-sport. It was all about the leaderboards, but it was so fun to play, it didn't matter whether you won or lost anyway. I ALMOST got the same feel from WoW's battlegrounds, but I felt like it *just* fell short, because there were not enough of them when I played (there was about 5 I think), and because they often weren't really fun enough. For example often I would just be stood around for 20 minutes defending a flag or whatever, and there wasn't much action - unlike my old Quake games which were constant mayhem. I think with GW2 they might actually nail the PVP and make it fun like an FPS without being too serious and hopefully not too grindy.

[Fozzik]

Those are all very valid concerns, and I share them to some extent.

It's certainly not going to be the perfect game by any stretch. What really fires me up is finally seeing a design philosophy closer to what I enjoy...and a team that appear to have the chops to really implement a solid and innovative game on top of their philosophy. It will definitely have it's issues and areas that could be improved, and it will also have things that I just don't prefer or enjoy. We all have to recognize that unless we want to make a game ourselves, we're never going to get exactly what we want.

In terms of the "contribution" thing...it is based on some minimum threshold of damage or healing or whatever. ArenaNet has said they are still working on what that minimum threshold should be, as part of the overall game balance. I'm guessing they will set the contribution bar high enough so that people won't be able to tag a bunch of mobs and then just slack off.

Great way to look at things, Forest. After trying to duo in SW:TOR with my wife...and our long-time solo adventures in WoW...I can definitely say I see the real benefits of what GW2 is doing. I'm going to REALLY enjoy being able to play with my friends any time I want with little or no overhead, and without worrying about outleveling them, or playing the wrong class or race, or wandering to far afield when exploring.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Originally Posted by mmorpeegee

It all sounds awesome, although there are some obvious questions raised by their solutions too. I reckon overall it will be for the best though, but the obvious questions that come to mind are:

If everything scales up and down, will it harm your sense of advancement in the world? Just like how everyone got annoyed at Oblivion because you end up level 90 and some random passing wolf would kick your ass because it is now level 90 too. In GW2 I imagine you could be high level and really powerful but you go to help a low level friend kill some bats and now you are gimped down to the level of the bats, etc.

As for the everyone gets loot thing, the obvious concern with that is that the world is going to be inundated with cheap loot, like WoW and Vanguard etc. There wont be much (or any?) rare and special items, because even the biggest baddest boss mobs, you kill it with a group and everyone in the group gets the item. The whole thing in Everquest about "rare" loots and rare drops and annoying placeholders etc.. although it was annoying and time consuming, it meant getting an item like a FBSS was a huge deal. It made peoples day! But loot in modern mmo's is so common and regular, it becomes almost pointless. The reason we all remember the Short Sword of the Ykesha, is because it only dropped about once a day, so it was special. People would say, Hey did you hear?! Tommy got a yak today!! But if every group going through there who killed the mob, 6 yaks dropped, it ceases to be interesting.

Then you have got the anti-archetype system. Without the whole thing of people having roles to play, it makes me wonder if it's going to be dumbed down and too easy to actually play. The old way had its issues too, but at least in the tougher games like early EQ, tanks were on the edge of their seats trying to aggro all the mobs in sight so nobody got killed, healers were on the edge of their seat watching the health bars, and dps were frantically trying to smack down creatures before the group ran out of steam - and they were trying to do that without causing too much aggro and blowing all their mana too. But in GW2 if everyone can do everything and nobody has to save each other or perform any specific roles, then it makes me wonder if most fights are just going to be nothing more than spamming your best "win each fight" routine while holding your thing.

As for the thing about 'everyone who contributes to the fight gets something', is that based on damage dealt or what? If not then whats to stop people slacking off and doing 1% damage to a mob and getting the same loot as the guy who has been fighting away from start to finish? And if it is based on damage, then will that not take in to account someone who might be doing all kinds of crowd control type stuff, distracting mobs etc.. will they get less reward than the guy who just stood toe to toe doing the dps? And again, can you even do crowd control type stuff? Or is there no need for anything like that, and instead everyone just stands toe to toe and taps out their kill routine.


All just thoughts anyway. But like I tried to say above, I have doubts but I can easily give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. Unlike most other MMO's, this just looks like an A+ Team of people who really know their stuff. Hope they don't make me eat my words, but I'm pretty confident based on what I've read. Some of the stuff mentioned in these articles I've seen before and I know it works well. The "horizontal advancement" thing for example, that is pretty much how Shards of Dalaya works, and that to date is probably my favourite MMO. Anyone can make max level in about a month, but I played it around 3 or 4 years, because max level is kind of where the game starts. Same goes for the whole e-sports thing. Before MMORPG's even existed as they do today, I used to play Quake online on my 33.6 modem, and it was amazing, and that was pretty much played like an e-sport. It was all about the leaderboards, but it was so fun to play, it didn't matter whether you won or lost anyway. I ALMOST got the same feel from WoW's battlegrounds, but I felt like it *just* fell short, because there were not enough of them when I played (there was about 5 I think), and because they often weren't really fun enough. For example often I would just be stood around for 20 minutes defending a flag or whatever, and there wasn't much action - unlike my old Quake games which were constant mayhem. I think with GW2 they might actually nail the PVP and make it fun like an FPS without being too serious and hopefully not too grindy.

The difference between GW2 and Oblivion is that you don't automatically scale up. There's still progression in the world as you go from someone who hasn't really even ever left the city before to someone who is going to help take down elder dragons. Zones are nonlinear in that you can do DEs in whatever order you come across them, but zones have a level range and even DEs themselves have a level associated with them. If you want a challenge, you can always try to do ones that are slightly higher level.

The game doesn't automatically scale you up, but you can manually sidekick to another player if you want to do higher level content with them.

The game does automentor you down but you'll still be strong for the content. The example they give is if you do a level 5 DE, you'll be the equivalent of a level 8. Still strong, but they had to eliminate players' ability to 1-shot everything in order to make the environment griefless.


As far as loot goes, everyone gets full looting rights, but the loot isn't the same. As far as I know, you don't even see what other people got. DEs don't give specific rewards because they don't want people to feel they need to do particular ones, but enemies themselves might drop rare loot.


With archetypes, it's not that there won't still be roles. Each player only has a limited skillbar. If you take a weapon or utility skill which focuses on one element, like control, then that means you're not taking a damaging or supporting weapon or skill.

The way I try to look at it, especially with dungeons, is that you can bring any 5 classes to the dungeon, but it will be up to the players to combine their collection of skills in some way which will allow them to beat an encounter.

Instead of healing, the game focuses more on proactive defense, such as barriers or knockdowns in order to prevent the damage from taking place.

Aggro is handled differently than a traditional game as well. It might be based on several factors, but one of the chief ones is proximity. The mob is inclined toward attacking the closest person to it. This allows people to use their control skills, dodge, and self heal, but they can't do it all because of cooldowns. They might need to back out for a bit and let someone else take over. It's more fluid, and it doesn't mean people have to specialize. A tactic might involve seeing that your primary controller is in trouble, and then using that utility skill to immobilize the mob, or swapping to a warhorn to give the party swiftness so someone can kite for a bit. One guy who has done the very hard (3 hour wipefest) explorable mode dungeon with a balanced group said he was sure that they could have done it with 5 thieves, it just would have taken totally different strategies.


With the threshold, as far as we know it's 5% to get credit for helping to kill a mob, subject to change. One thing to consider though is that there's a participation reward for how much you contributed to the DE. So if you slack and just try to get credit for each mob and that's it, you might get less of an overall reward. It also seems like people would be better off focus firing mobs, killing them more quickly and respawning more mobs. Or better still, to get a group of 10 people setting up AOE kills. Seems like what starts off as mooching might easily become good teamwork, lol. Though keep in mind that even though someone mooching off you doesn't hurt you (you get your own xp), there is also instant teleportation, automentoring and nonlinearity. If you don't like the way someone else is playing, you can leave and find a lot of other hunting grounds.

[AsheMan]

Originally Posted by ForestWhitakerEye

Instead of healing, the game focuses more on proactive defense, such as barriers or knockdowns in order to prevent the damage from taking place.

I really like the sound of that. I played a Shaman in Everquest, and his greatest mechanic was simply slowing the enemy so they did far less damage! I can't believe mechanics like "slow" were abandoned with the modern MMOs.

[perfect]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

...someone brought up the fact that they didn't think of GW2 as a spiritual successor to EQ, but instead as a spiritual successor to Asheron's Call....

And I'm looking at it as a spiritual successor to DAoC because I'm focused on the PvP (WvWvW) aspect of GW2.

Three realms. Both DAoC and GW2.

Siege equipment. Both DAoC and GW2.

Resource captures. DAoC had towers that reduced the effectiveness of the keeps, GW2 has points (lumber mills, etc) that can be used for and against your enemy.

Ability for large zergs and small elite groups to be productive in PvP. Zergs to meet enemy zerg or take large objectives, groups to harass supply lines and hinder reinforcements of the large objectives in both DAoC and GW2.

Story above rewards for quests. No one in DAoC did quests for loot. If they did them at all, it was for story.

I'm really looking forward to the WvWvW side of GW2. I played EQ for many years and can not see how GW2 is the spiritual successor to EQ. I see it for DAoC.

Originally Posted by mmorpeegee

...games that didn't even make it to release like Dark & Light....

<narrows eyes>

I was one of the suckers who bought Dark and Light when it released. It was out for right around two years of live play.

Unless it was a dream. Tell me it was a nightmare and that I didn't play it. Also, tell me that I didn't spend a LOT of time with Auto Assault and Matrix Online. Thanks.

[mmorpeegee]

Hey thanks for all the info Forest. Sounds good. It's getting harder to stay cool about this game, I'm desperately trying to repress my inner child who keeps shouting zomg let me play it noooowowowowow!!!

Originally Posted by perfect

<narrows eyes>

I was one of the suckers who bought Dark and Light when it released. It was out for right around two years of live play.

Unless it was a dream. Tell me it was a nightmare and that I didn't play it. Also, tell me that I didn't spend a LOT of time with Auto Assault and Matrix Online. Thanks.

Wow I never realised that game released! I can't actually remember much about it, I just remember waaaaay back, I saw a movie of a character who sat on his shield and slid down a hill on it! Mind was totally blown. But then later on I heard that the game was going to release with lots of features missing, so most likely it did release but I just said, "No shield slidey fun = you are dead to me!" I am forgiving like that.

Matrix, kinda the same story. There has been a lot of these kinds of games when I think back. Amazing how many have flopped, soooo many millions down the pipes :/