[Fozzik]

I believe Perfect will be in... maybe a few others.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

I don't disagree with any of that, as I said, I totally agree that levels should matter for many reasons...but again, if all of those things are significant...if pacing matters and there's a natural progression by which everyone is supposed to experience the game...don't boosters mess with that, too?

Obviously it's a much more minor effect, but the point is the same principle should apply. Either pacing and progression through the game matter, or they don't. Being able to buy faster progression contradicts their stance.

I see what you're saying, but I really don't think it's an issue. You have to remember that once you buy it, it's free. ArenaNet seems to be all about giving people the opportunity to pay a pretty stupidly large amount of money not even really to progress faster but to make up for playing the game less. $3 to turn an hour and a half's leveling into only an hour (and it's probably not that good) adds up over 80 levels.

And in that case you still have gradual progression, it's just slightly sped up. In the example I was giving, it would be like taking a level 2 player into Orr and unlocking I don't know, 30 waypoints on the way in a straight line.

Originally Posted by Loampounder

Wow, the more I hear of it, the more the game sounds like a very lazy design. instead of building in nuance, they just put up invisible walls to force you along a playstyle.

I don't know, perhaps you could elaborate more on what you mean. If you use WoW as a standard for themeparks, you've got linear quests and zone progression, but you've got more quests than you need (so you can skip some within a zone) and you've got multiple zone options (zangarmarsh or terrokar). To me, Rift would be an example of lazy design where you really only have one path and it's just 3 quests then next hub, 3 quests then next hub (unless you want to grind rifts as another option).

GW2 is also a zoned themepark, but at least you have the option of going back to lower level areas at any time. They're even going to be adding new events right from launch so that maybe you'll see new stuff. For at least the first 25 levels there's also 4-5 zone options (one for each race, but you can do whichever you want).

There's other options they could have gone with (levelless, content always scaling to you like in Oblivion, sandbox, etc) but for the kind of game it is I think it's pretty good. Perhaps you could expand on how you see it differently.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by ForestWhitakerEye

I don't know, perhaps you could elaborate more on what you mean. If you use WoW as a standard for themeparks, you've got linear quests and zone progression, but you've got more quests than you need (so you can skip some within a zone) and you've got multiple zone options (zangarmarsh or terrokar). To me, Rift would be an example of lazy design where you really only have one path and it's just 3 quests then next hub, 3 quests then next hub (unless you want to grind rifts as another option).

I never use WoW as a standard.

It sounds like GW2 is using hard-coded barriers to engineer the gamplay, rather than soft or incentizived guides. For example, to make sure that higher level characters don't monopolize lower-level dynamic content, GW2 will just force a character to a lower level. Your character has certain powers and benefits, he walks a little further and suddenly he does not? Other methods like trivial loot code, reduced experience/reward, etc. taught the same thing but did not change your character just for being in a location.

In EQ, a higher level character could monopolize a lower level area, but they made it so you did not want to. It seems pretty crappy to become a higher level and want to stroll back into Blackborrow to show that gnoll elite just who is boss now, just to be scaled back in power so you effectively have had no character advancement compared to content.

In EQ, you had a feeling of evolution of character. If you went into a lowbie area, you felt like you had outgrown it. There were motivational reasons to push your character to new lands, not hardcoded reasons. What about helping out low levels characters in the starter areas? Instead of making a way where the good behaviors could exist but motivate out the bad behaviors, it sounds like the development team just went the lazy way and scaled everything, be is PvE or PvP.

[Fozzik]

Character advancement in GW2 is horizontal (the leveling curve is really a minor aspect of the long-term play). You get more options, rather than higher numbers. Because of this, scaling you down in terms of hit points and damage does not take away your advancement (you still have access to all your skills, traits, armor, and weapons). Gaining levels simply opens up content, which you can consume in any order at your own pace without concern for out-leveling things or missing things which have become trivial to you.

Sure, some games are set up with trivial loot code and things to make people not want to go back and one-shot low level areas. Those same games require farming for faction and for crafting materials which sends all those high level players back to the low level zones anyway. Even without that incentive, people go back to low areas just to grief. Personally, I'd rather have the content I enjoy continue to be challenging and offer useful reward, regardless of how I've progressed. I hate getting to the max level in traditional MMORPGs and realizing I can't keep playing the way I enjoy...instead I now have to become a raider or quit.

GW2's system opens up the entire world to the max level player. You get loot commensurate with your level, regardless of what content you do...so you can travel anywhere, play with anyone, and still enjoy a bit of challenge...while getting rewards appropriate to you. Instead of the game progressively shrinking in terms of your playable options like most traditional MMORPGs, it progressively opens up. Any content they add after release, regardless of level, can be utilized by all players of that level or higher. This provides the added benefit of keeping the developers from using up all their dev time to cater to a single play style....content that the majority of players never get to see (i.e. traditional raiding endgame).

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

I never use WoW as a standard.

It sounds like GW2 is using hard-coded barriers to engineer the gamplay, rather than soft or incentizived guides. For example, to make sure that higher level characters don't monopolize lower-level dynamic content, GW2 will just force a character to a lower level. Your character has certain powers and benefits, he walks a little further and suddenly he does not? Other methods like trivial loot code, reduced experience/reward, etc. taught the same thing but did not change your character just for being in a location.

In EQ, a higher level character could monopolize a lower level area, but they made it so you did not want to. It seems pretty crappy to become a higher level and want to stroll back into Blackborrow to show that gnoll elite just who is boss now, just to be scaled back in power so you effectively have had no character advancement compared to content.

In EQ, you had a feeling of evolution of character. If you went into a lowbie area, you felt like you had outgrown it. There were motivational reasons to push your character to new lands, not hardcoded reasons. What about helping out low levels characters in the starter areas? Instead of making a way where the good behaviors could exist but motivate out the bad behaviors, it sounds like the development team just went the lazy way and scaled everything, be is PvE or PvP.

Perhaps you misunderstand what ArenaNet is trying to do. They're trying to make a 100% griefless PVE world. No kill stealing, no training, no ninja looting, no node stealing. In order to accomplish this, they had to scale players down in power so they couldn't ruin events by 1-shotting things. They've said they recognize that players do like to go back and crush everything in order to feel powerful, but it's a sacrifice they needed to make in order to accomplish their goal of grieflessness.

This, however has the added bonus of that you never outgrow content. This isn't like trivial loot code where you're disincentivized from going back or to keep you from exploiting it if you do, this actually lets you play and enjoy the entire open world's content once you've reached level cap. You also get rewarded like it was your level (or slightly worse) instead of getting rewarded like it was way back at that level.

You should be strong for the content, the example they gave is that you're level 8 if you're facing level 5s, but you just can't ruin other people's experiences. You also have more skills and traits unlocked so you're more powerful that way. In addition to unlocking things, you've got other reasons to progress, such as seeing what comes next in your personal story.

Personally, I think it's a better system. Rather than other games where you go help a lowbie out and you want for them to do 51% damage or whatever and then you just crush it so they get the xp, you can totally just play together. I don't know if you've ever played Vindictus, but there's a world of difference between one person doing a mission and two people. You can focus fire, and one person can try to get a respite from getting beat on.

[Fozzik]

There's also likely going to be a benefit in terms of utilization of content and population spread...everyone won't end up clumped in a couple high level zones or sitting in cities waiting on instances after the game's been live for a few months. I'm sure some people will still want to spend their time in max level zones...but level scaling will definitely promote players spreading out and reduce the ghost towns that low-level zones tend to become in traditional MMORPGs.

Another aspect is the community-building potential...level scaling means that high level players will be able to play directly with new folks as they are entering the game in a way that's honestly beneficial to both parties. Teaching new folks the ropes, making them feel welcome and included...so much better for longevity and community than previous level systems where new players entering the game 6 months in are confronted with an entire leveling curve of deserted content that they have to solo through, or a group of friends that have to create alts just to play with them.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by ForestWhitakerEye

They're trying to make a 100% griefless PVE world. No kill stealing, no training, no ninja looting, no node stealing.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

There's also likely going to be a benefit in terms of utilization of content and population spread...everyone won't end up clumped in a couple high level zones or sitting in cities waiting on instances after the game's been live for a few months.

But this sounds like the equivalence of turning everything into beige. Mechanically, hunting in the newbie area and hunting in the deep wilderness will be the same. Think about it - Fozzik said that the good side is that experienced players will want to hunt in the newbie areas. If a lvl 45 character decides that hunting orc pawns is just as viable as hunting hill giants, then we have officially reach beige soup, and I don't know why anyone would want to play that. And saying that people will want to advance to find out about their personal story is like saying the best thing about your date is her personality. How long did SWTOR hold you with their great quest lines?

[Fozzik]

We're not talking about a world populated with static spawns...mobs that simply get more hit points and maybe get uglier as we level up.

We're talking about a world populated by ever-shifting dynamic events...maps are covered with things actually happening. You aren't going back to newb areas to kill rats...you go back to help a village fight off the bandit army (which is actually running over the hills and attacking said village), or stop centaurs from invading a farm, or to take part in a huge boss battle. These things are actually happening all the time...not just some NPC talking about them happening and some static mobs standing in a field.

When you experience a particular zone, dynamic events will be in whatever state that they happen to be in along each event chain. You join in at their current link, and can push the chain one way or another by completing events (or by failing events). When you leave, the events will continue to shift along either by themselves or due to the interaction of other players, so when you return to that same area entirely different things might be happening. It will likely take multiple trips to a particular area to take part in every possible event.

Events in higher-level zones are likely to be more epic in nature, for sure...but that doesn't mean the ones in lower-level zones won't be fun. For completionists...it will be about finishing all the maps and experiencing all the events. For others, it will simply be a matter of variety...instead of earning the currency they need by doing the same zone events over and over, they can travel anywhere in the world and take part in events they've never seen. Add to that the people who will really enjoy certain events or chains, and will want to repeat them.

[mmorpeegee]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

I believe Perfect will be in... maybe a few others.

Cool, I might give it a shot, just a shame its only weekends. And I'm so hooked on EQ at the moment :P

p.s. I should post some screenshots of how it looks with the high res textures. It's pretty good!

Originally Posted by Loampounder

beige soup

LOL

It is possible though that scaling down will be slightly less xp than picking on stuff your own size. So most people will gladly do it to help friends and newbies, but the inner min/maxer in people will keep them away.

[Fozzik]

Originally Posted by mmorpeegee

Cool, I might give it a shot, just a shame its only weekends. And I'm so hooked on EQ at the moment :P

p.s. I should post some screenshots of how it looks with the high res textures. It's pretty good!



LOL

It is possible though that scaling down will be slightly less xp than picking on stuff your own size. So most people will gladly do it to help friends and newbies, but the inner min/maxer in people will keep them away.

I'm not sure, actually...it's possible that experience will be scaled to your level, since it's an individual reward like the currencies you recieve. So...doing lower-level stuff may get you just as much experience as even-level. We'll have to wait and see on that. At max level that won't matter because you're no longer after experience.

What it does is provide a very interesting sort of "endgame"...players who are interested in the most efficient progression will move through the zones in a more linear fashion (lower-level ----> higher-level), but when they reach the top, it becomes about exploration, completion, variety, and community.

Instead of top-level players getting on a gear treadmill and climbing a ladder that puts a larger and larger barrier between them and the rest of the player base...players at max level continue to take part in the game that everyone else is playing.

It will be quite different, but for a lot of people, it will be a true breath of fresh air.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

We're talking about a world populated by ever-shifting dynamic events...maps are covered with things actually happening. You aren't going back to newb areas to kill rats...you go back to help a village fight off the bandit army (which is actually running over the hills and attacking said village), or stop centaurs from invading a farm, or to take part in a huge boss battle. These things are actually happening all the time...not just some NPC talking about them happening and some static mobs standing in a field.

Right, which just shows how lazy they are at design. They want the whole level-growth thing but they don't want to deal with it in their dynamic event design. Leveling is a driving function that as ramifications (players get more powerful). They don't design to account for they; they simply ignore it when they want to.

What about integrity of the character? You go off to war to fight bandits that are invading a town, and you get reduced in power? After nine months in the wilderness and my campaign to raid the High Temple of Arrzzaa, I go back home to find that bandits are attacking and I only have lvl 14 powers against them? It sounds like a totally forced solution.

Rift had to address this and they were a little more subtle. Scaling everyone down to a certain level just is too simple and blunt. Why even have levels?

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

...but when they reach the top, it becomes about exploration, completion, variety, and community.

Instead of top-level players getting on a gear treadmill and climbing a ladder that puts a larger and larger barrier between them and the rest of the player base...players at max level continue to take part in the game that everyone else is playing.

No, when most gamers are left with no more progression, they tend to drop out. You are talking about Rift without the top-level dailies. With nothing to do, people will go back and explore/engage the community? The few people who are hobbyists might, but not the most of gamers.

Do you really think that the kind of people who become top-level players will change their nature and play casual?

[Fozzik]

You missed what I said. You keep all the skills, spells, traits, armor, and weapons that you've acquired. You just get leveled down in terms of stats so you aren't one-shotting things. The focus of character advancement in the game is on versatility and depth...having more options...and you keep that versatility when you return to lower-level areas.

Why have levels? Because they allow content to unfold as you progress. They control the unfolding of the story and the speed at which you acquire things. They provide a ladder to climb and an easily understandable measure of progress. Being able to go back to lower level areas and still be challenged doesn't take away from the purpose of levels...just like in any other level based game. The purpose of levels is never about "Oh boy, now I can go one-shot things and grief level-appropriate players"...that's just an unintentional side-effect that GW2 has cleared up.

[mmorpeegee]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

It will be quite different, but for a lot of people, it will be a true breath of fresh air.

Yeah, it's so different I can't even think about it, and can't judge it. I think it's probably going to be a very different experience to play. Even subtle changes change the 'feel' of playing, and GW2's changes are huge. So I just can't even imagine. I just wanna play and enjoy the ride

[perfect]

Originally Posted by Vordox2

I'm pre buying the game is anyone else? Be nice to have someone to play with on beta.

Am Betaing Tera this weekend for giggles.

I will be. Course, there are only 2 BWEs until the June 26th release so it won't be that big of a deal.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

The focus of character advancement in the game is on versatility and depth...having more options...and you keep that versatility when you return to lower-level areas.

You are saying that the big change from leveling is graphical. If I hunted in zone A when it was level appropriate, and came back to hunt there two levels later, the only reach change is the graphics on my armor and the graphics of the spells I cast. It's a little easier, but to be a challenge worth experience, it certainly be a reflection of the new powers I earned over the past twenty levels. More options don't mean anything (besides grpahically) because players can obviously hunt in those areas without the "versatility".

The purpose of levels is never about "Oh boy, now I can go one-shot things and grief level-appropriate players"...that's just an unintentional side-effect that GW2 has cleared up.

Sure, the purpose was never about that, but player evolution is defined by outleveling areas. To avoid anticdotes of possible griefing, they neutered the entire concept of leveling a character relative to the world. PvE is a forced artificial concept for them.

GW2 now sounds like a single-player RPG hosted on the internet.

[Fozzik]

We're clearly on two entirely different wavelengths here. I think I'll just let it go.

Hopefully we'll all find a gaming home pretty soon.

[mmorpeegee]

Well its hard to know if we will like it or not until we try it. But I think the scaling could be good. It sounds like the mentoring system in Vanguard, only better. In Vanguard you could mentor down, for example from level 40 to level 20 and then you could group with some lower level people and go to Trengal Keep together or whatever.

It basically just lowered all your stats and made it so that you just performed like a level 20. Although it was a bit annoying because you lost any of your higher level spells or skills, so it made you miss them, and you also had to remake your hotkeys. It sounds like GW2 is kind of the same, but you get to keep all your abilities, and everything will scale down.

Could be pretty cool. I still am resisting getting too excited about this game yet though. Partly because I just want to experience first hand before I get too fond of anything, but also because I still have concerns that things might not work out that great. For example, similar to Rift, it could be a very fun experience but only last a month or two... Not the end of the world, but still, it gets annoying not having a long term game.

[perfect]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

...PvE is a forced artificial concept for them.

GW2 now sounds like a single-player RPG hosted on the internet.

Might also stem from it being a PvP game with PvE tacked on, not the other way around.

I played TOR. That's a singleplayer RPG hosted on the internet. I don't quite get your leap to this conclusion as the content scales up with the more people involved. Meaning, it gets harder, the rewards grow in size the more people you have tackling an issue.

I think it's great that I can go back and experience stuff I might have missed out on or that is new. No more 'unused content' like you see in other games (wastelands that it's not the 'best' to level in anymore [see: Antonica in modern EQ]). I think it's great that I can stay in the SAME area for 80 levels, just because I like the events there.