[tdewey10]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Gallery is back, and those images above should show for everyone now (I moved them to a public gallery).

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/gallery/

Thanks. Very interesting. I'm sad I missed early combat. I saw the queue message on one of the screens.

[mmorpeegee]

Yeah Old skoool.
http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/gal...9_original.jpg

And in this one you can see he interrupts one of the attacks. And also how you used to be able to attack body parts too I forgot about that.

[Lonestryder]

Very accurate synopsis, Fozzik. And thanks for the pics...sniff sniff.

[Jave]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Holy moly...that's some pretty simple questions with REALLY long, drawn out, complicated answers.

I don't want to write a novel (done that several times over already, hehe)...I guess the best way to sum things up is to say that the Vanguard I played in friends and family beta (really an early alpha state) was the best Vanguard that ever existed in my opinion. It really was shaping up to be the game described in the original FAQ. The problem was that it was WAY behind, the scope was out of control, and the management of the company was just beginning to fall apart at that time.

Yes, some of the early testers did complain quite a bit that the system was slow, and boring, and whatever. I didn't agree. It was very different, to be sure, and I think that was the heart of the problem. From even the earliest testing that Sigil did, people (even internally within Sigil) were calling for the game to be more WoW-like in just about every system and mechanic. There were STRONG voices within the company and the community (even some employees who were out campaigning against the game on public sites, won't name any names) who felt that the game was too unfamiliar, or too inaccessible to the casual masses...that you COULDN'T POSSIBLY create a successful MMORPG that was different from WoW, because the WoW formula was the clear bible on success.

It's pretty typical in any MMORPG testing for there to be a faction who calls for a more WoW-like accessible, easier, shallow formula...especially if you're setting out to make a spiritual successor to EQ. The question is how the developers react to it...and that's where Sigil fell apart. Due to being behind, the project being out of control, and due to bad management and interpersonal issues that developed (some totally unforeseen and terribly sad events contributed), the "make it more like WoW" faction started gaining traction. Instead of fixing issues and finishing the game, Sigil started pulling and replacing whole systems without really any overall sense of how each affected the game.

I was part of a group of voices calling endlessly for them to fix and finish the great game that we saw glimpses of in early alpha, instead of trying to change it at the last minute into something else. At the heart of the issue was Sigil's fear...they were seeing things fall apart internally, and beta tester retention rates were terrible. Most players that tried the game early on in beta left...and Sigil was scrambling to understand why. I felt that the bad reaction of a lot of beta testers was because of the highly unfinished, unpolished state of the game (people were expecting a typical MMO beta - which is really just a free trial or stress test), NOT because the game was different from WoW.

After all, the huge pre-launch community that had built up around Vanguard was largely all people who LIKED what the original FAQ said, and the contrast that it provided to the "norm" in the modern genre. Because of the internal strife and lack of leadership, the wrong folks stepped up and began pulling the game in multiple different directions. The loudest voices were the ones who said that the low tester retention was because they weren't making WoW 2... and the rest is history.

Anyway, I don't know if that answered your questions. I'll try and be more concise -
1) Yes, a lot of people enjoyed it, thought it had awesome potential, and argued tooth and nail for it to remain in the game (along with so many other systems that were changed).

2) Yes, I very much would have loved to play the Vanguard that Sigil spent 4-5 years on...not the game that they spent 1 year creating right at the end before release. If only...

I realize this thread is 6 months old, but I'll say it anyway....

THANKS A FRIKKIN LOT FOR DRAGGING ALL THOSE OLD MEMORIES UP AGAIN Foz! haha

While massively condensed, that's exactly how it went down. It happened so quick to. If my memory hasn't failed me, in a matter of months they ripped apart the entire core game design and replaced it with WOW friendly mechanics. The neutering of the death penalty was the memory that really stands out in my head. That was when it became crystal clear they had abandoned the entire original concept of what the game was supposed to be, and players started leaving in droves.

I wasn't in friends and family beta, however I was in the first round of beta players invited. As excited as I was to play, I remember the issues with beta. There was nothing to do! I started out in a small village with about 6 NPC's, and 4 of them served no purpose. I got a quest, finished it, got another, and another, all of them in and around the village. I'm guessing there was 6-8? The final quest told me to seek "so and so" up on the ridge. So I was like, "There we go! Now it's starting to make sense and take me somewhere"!. So I trotted off and saw a path leading up a hill and got about 3/4 of the way up, (I was level 5? 6?) and saw a mob at the top of the path. He was just standing there and clicking on him he was at least level 13.
So basically, that's it. I remember thinking, "Don't be lazy, run around, explore, this is how you did it in Qeynos and Qeynos Hills, lets do this"....But I just ran and ran and ran around. No mobs, no players, no NPC's...just miles and miles of grass. I logged off.

It did get better but I do remember logging in once a week, creating another character, same quests, same NPC's same high level mobs blocking my path to continue the quest line. It was truly a bummer.

[AsheMan]

Originally Posted by Jave

I remember thinking, "Don't be lazy, run around, explore, this is how you did it in Qeynos and Qeynos Hills, lets do this"....But I just ran and ran and ran around. No mobs, no players, no NPC's...just miles and miles of grass. I logged off.

It did get better but I do remember logging in once a week, creating another character, same quests, same NPC's same high level mobs blocking my path to continue the quest line. It was truly a bummer.

That's how it was on release. Everything that was level 35+ content was missing. When my group of friends wanted to level up through the 40's in that first month, we had to go find a village of mantis people that were friendly and farm them for days. They were the only monsters in the game that we could kill for experience! After that first month, they finally populated some dungeons and areas for high level folks.

[Xaxius]

I haven't visited this site in years, but I read this thread and had to post. I was also in early beta for Vanguard. It's been the only beta I've ever been in where the game progressively got worse as the betas progressed. It really was a missed opportunity to take the industry in a different direction and bring something new to the table. The Adventure Journal, NPC providing quests by motioning to you and providing you a "rumor", the T. King interface, the combat system... there is just so much I miss that others never got to experience.

Anyway, I post a couple hundred images from back during that beta. I hope you enjoy them.

http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z...0Early%20Beta/

[Vordox]

Nice Photos thanks for sharing.

[Loampounder]

Wow, thanks for the link to the pics.

[Fozzik]

Nice to see some old names swinging by. Feel free to hang out...there's more games on the horizon.

The current issues with 38 Studios are really bringing back a lot of these old Vanguard memories. I see some of the die-hard fans over on the 38 Watch forums acting the same way and saying the same things that we were back then. It's just so difficult to accept that a company just totally fell apart right in front of you, and pulled the rug out from under all your hopes and expectations. I'll never let it happen to me again, but some folks just seem to have the capacity to do it over and over.

Thank goodness that the genre continues to make games. Eventually we'll all hopefully find a home.

[Lonestryder]

Ugh, I was there, too (along with the 65 - 98 folks on the early beta) and this makes me sad.

I, too, remember the 180 degree change in direction and the Brad post that essentially negated the entire FAQ up to that point. Such is life and such is the story of Vanguard.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Jave]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Nice to see some old names swinging by. Feel free to hang out...there's more games on the horizon.

The current issues with 38 Studios are really bringing back a lot of these old Vanguard memories. I see some of the die-hard fans over on the 38 Watch forums acting the same way and saying the same things that we were back then. It's just so difficult to accept that a company just totally fell apart right in front of you, and pulled the rug out from under all your hopes and expectations. I'll never let it happen to me again, but some folks just seem to have the capacity to do it over and over.

Thank goodness that the genre continues to make games. Eventually we'll all hopefully find a home.

Hey Foz! What forums are 38 watch? I've been following over on the FOH forums( http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorp...her-stuff.html ). Curt was quite active and even answered a few of my questions a couple months ago but recently stopped posting. Now we know why.

Not that I was ever a huge poster, but for a long time it showed SV as a dead link so I assumed ya all packed it in. Good to see ya back on. I haven't been here in awhile but oddly enough was getting the itch to play VG again, and like you said, the similarities between the Vanguard and 38S situation are eerily reminiscent.
I've got a 90/90/300 character on Everquest 2 but it's not the same. Vanguard was......it was just so different. That was as close to original Everquest as we will most likely ever see.

Like the feeling you get when you played in your home city in Everquest, Qeynos, Freeport, Riverdale etc...Vanguard had the same kind of feeling. You were immersed. You knew the mobs, you remembered the quests, the city music actually moved you. While I've had tons of fun in Everquest 2, it's not nearly the same. Everything is so fast paced, you don't really get attached to anything. And now the market has changed so much, emulators may be the best our generation has anymore for another round at a great MMO.

[Fozzik]

http://www.38watch.com/forums/forum.php
^38 Watch community, if you have a desire to join in the wild, rampant speculation. Some of the superfans are a bit...hostile, but at least it isn't the official Amalur forums.

SV did go offline for a while, and I myself thought it was gone forever. I didn't even check the link for almost a year, because I thought it was gone. Then I was on a different website and someone linked to SV...I was like, "WTH?!" and so I came back and started messing with things again, trying to update a bit and finally move us a little away from being a long-defunct Vanguard fansite.

Have you looked at Guild Wars 2 at all?

[Jave]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

http://www.38watch.com/forums/forum.php
^38 Watch community, if you have a desire to join in the wild, rampant speculation. Some of the superfans are a bit...hostile, but at least it isn't the official Amalur forums.

SV did go offline for a while, and I myself thought it was gone forever. I didn't even check the link for almost a year, because I thought it was gone. Then I was on a different website and someone linked to SV...I was like, "WTH?!" and so I came back and started messing with things again, trying to update a bit and finally move us a little away from being a long-defunct Vanguard fansite.

Have you looked at Guild Wars 2 at all?

GW2, while I admit I never played, nor even researched it, from all information it seemed as if it was built around a PVP model, which I hate PVP. Not only do I believe the majority of PVP players are total tools, they bitch and whine so much I wanna punch half of em. So obviously, the original Guild Wars didn't appeal to me.

Now from everything I have read and researched about Copernicus, it wasn't revolutionary or groundbreaking, and in fact, probing Curt for information he may have even been going the "WOW version 4.5" route(he never denied, nor confirmed it, but not denying it was worrisome). But I was gonna give it a try. He played EQ, and yes, he's playing WOW, but it's at least a little hope he remembered what was fun about the original Everquest.
Plus the wife missed original EQ. I introduced her to MMO's with Vanguard in 07', then Everquest 2, and I have to admit, if she had been playing in 99'-00', she would have been one of those psycho 15 hour a day raiders. She absolutely loves MMO's. She would have made me look casual at my 8-10 hours a day back in 2000. So I wanted her to get in on the ground floor of an MMO where she wasn't already 3 years behind.

What can ya tell me bout GW2?

[perfect]

Originally Posted by Jave

...What can ya tell me bout GW2?

Everything you wanted to know about GW2 but were afraid to search for.

[Jave]

Originally Posted by perfect

Everything you wanted to know about GW2 but were afraid to search for.

/SLAPS FOREHEAD! Way to pay attention there Jave haha. Thanks for the link. It's like asking where the bank is and the guy points across the street. I feel dumb now

[Fozzik]

Here's a great place to get a solid overview of the game...we can help with details after that.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/...e-uninitiated/

There's also a TON of video on youtube...I would recommend checking out the Cynical Brit videos...as he provides a great new player perspective while still giving good commentary.

The first thing I'll say is that Guild Wars 2 is the most PvE-centric game I've seen in the genre in a long time. It's also the most PvP-centric....at the same time. How? Because they totally split the two and built the most incredible version they could of each one separately. They didn't try to mix them together...and because of that, GW2 offers the most purely cooperative and free-exploration PvE game play in one of the biggest, most amazingly immersive worlds I've ever seen.

Definitely check in over on the GW2 boards and let us know what you think. We're bored because there's no beta event going on...talking about the game and answering questions about it is the next best thing.

Oh, and this video will give you a bit of an impression of why these dynamic events are quite different from what other games have done -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CyqGJHTjes
It's a low-level event in the very first zone...but the depth of the system is clearly evident.

[Treesong]

Hello to the SV folks!

Hey Fozzik, the link in your email to your new forums did not work, it sent me to a dead end. Is your forum up and running?

Nice to see some traffic here, smart move to make a GW2 forum. It's definately the new kid on the block imo, nice and different and high value (the latter lacking in most other "nice and different" projects).

Because of GW2 I picked up GW1 from the shelf again after having played it only a few hours right after release. Back then it was just WAY too "not EQ" for me with all the instancing. But the second time around I quit enjoyed the different approach to the genre and also had a great time with the Hero-teams so I made it to 30/50 for my HOM!

Anyway, looking forward to the next BWE. Also still logging into EQ now and then now that it's gone ftp. Purely for nostalgia's sake, visiting old stomping grounds, reliving some memories.

Cheers!

[Jave]

Originally Posted by Treesong

Hello to the SV folks!

Hey Fozzik, the link in your email to your new forums did not work, it sent me to a dead end. Is your forum up and running?

Nice to see some traffic here, smart move to make a GW2 forum. It's definately the new kid on the block imo, nice and different and high value (the latter lacking in most other "nice and different" projects).

Because of GW2 I picked up GW1 from the shelf again after having played it only a few hours right after release. Back then it was just WAY too "not EQ" for me with all the instancing. But the second time around I quit enjoyed the different approach to the genre and also had a great time with the Hero-teams so I made it to 30/50 for my HOM!

Anyway, looking forward to the next BWE. Also still logging into EQ now and then now that it's gone ftp. Purely for nostalgia's sake, visiting old stomping grounds, reliving some memories.

Cheers!

WOW, long time since I seen that name! Hey Tree.....it's like we were all hiding out and slowly returning. What is it about this site that keeps people coming back anyway? haha. That tells ya how powerful this site once was.

[tdewey10]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Nice to see some old names swinging by. Feel free to hang out...there's more games on the horizon.

The current issues with 38 Studios are really bringing back a lot of these old Vanguard memories. I see some of the die-hard fans over on the 38 Watch forums acting the same way and saying the same things that we were back then. It's just so difficult to accept that a company just totally fell apart right in front of you, and pulled the rug out from under all your hopes and expectations. I'll never let it happen to me again, but some folks just seem to have the capacity to do it over and over.

Thank goodness that the genre continues to make games. Eventually we'll all hopefully find a home.

Actually as I commented to a friend, Brad & Co. should thank Curt & Co. They've managed to do the impossible - make Sigil look good.

Unfortunately for 'us' - 38Studios has killed the semi-independent MMO development. Aside from something like Elder Scrolls or Blizz's new game- I don't think we'll see new MMOs anytime soon from western publishers - we'll have to hope ArcheAge & etc are decent.

[perfect]

Originally Posted by tdewey10

...I don't think we'll see new MMOs anytime soon from western publishers....

EA is in California and it has The Secret World coming out next week and Dungeon Keeper World coming out in October.

Trion is in California and they have Defiance coming out in August and End of Nations coming out in October.

CCP is in Reykjavik and has Dust 514 out in September.

Wargaming.net is in Nicosia and has World of Warplanes and Battleships coming out in October.

Paradox Interactive is in New York and has Salem coming out in November.

Hasbro is in Rhode Island and has Transformers Universe coming out in November.

Atari is in California and has Neverwinter coming out in November.

Cliffhanger Productions is in Jersey and has Shadowrun Online coming out in November.

**So there are eleven MMOs from western publishers coming out before the end of the year. I probably missed some, but, it is what it is.

I want to include Arena Net's Guild Wars 2 coming out in November cause they are in Washington but they are being published by NCSoft, who are in Seoul.