[Fozzik]

Cool it.

Vordox, whether the beef is legit or not, please avoid the personal attacks. I won't ask you to take it to PMs, since people here seem not to like that idea... so it's fine if you two want to go ten rounds ON THE ISSUE or just ignore each other...but at least adhere to the forum rules. Thanks.

Loam, do you find it at all interesting that every argument on these boards over the last few months has been someone + YOU. I know you want to pretend you aren't instigating, but it's painfully obvious that you are. I've asked you to stop, and you continue to poke. Last warning.

There's a way to disagree that doesn't involve inciting other people. Cheap shots and snide comments aren't it.

[Fozzik]

In hindsight, we can say that what Turbine did was no different from what ArenaNet did...because now we have the benefit of knowing that all the employees were laid off. Hindsight's always 20/20.

At the time when Turbine held their job fair, nobody knew (at least none of the public or the employees knew) that layoffs were eminent. Things weren't looking good, but I guarantee you that 99.9% of the employees were still hoping that financing would be found, that a deal would get worked out, and that they would get to finish and release the game they had been pouring their hearts and souls into for years.

In that context, Turbine's job fair looks a little different. They had no idea that the studio was about to lay everyone off...everyone thought the studio had hit hard times and was doing their best to retain everyone and try to pull the mess out of the fire. Sure, we could speculate at that time that things were going to get worse, but NOBODY predicted that the doors would close less than a week later. So...what Turbine did, in the context of what everyone knew at the time, was different. They were trying to draw employees away from a company that was hitting hard times and trying desperately to stick together and save their game. In other words, they were actively, decisively, trying to hurt 38 Studios' chances and help themselves.

Now, I wouldn't call them vultures...and if you read my posts at that time on the 38 Watch boards you'll find that I was probably the only one putting a somewhat positive spin on what Turbine was doing. It wasn't personal...it was BUSINESS. They were doing what businesses do...they try to do what's in their own best interest and will maximize their ability to profit and stay solvent. So...I don't necessarily fault them. They were also very likely providing a nice, viable option to people who were really scared about their jobs and their families...and I see that as a positive thing. It was, however, quite disrespectful to 38 Studios. It was dirty pool. Not cheating...they were just doing business, but it was still kicking another company while they were down but not yet out.

ArenaNet waited until the situation resolved itself before wading in publicly, and I think that's classy. *shrug* There's really no difference in terms of former 38 Studios employees if they apply for a Turbine job a week ago or apply for an ArenaNet job today...the only difference is in the respect that one company is showing for the other...not trying to draw their employees away while 38 Studios was still alive and trying to save itself.

In fact, it will likely be no different at all for former 38 Studios employees to be laid off and then get their next job...because they can collect unemployment and have state-provided health insurance until their new job kicks in.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Loam, do you find it at all interesting that every argument on these boards over the last few months has been someone + YOU. I know you want to pretend you aren't instigating, but it's painfully obvious that you are. I've asked you to stop, and you continue to poke. Last warning.

Yes, I do find it interesting. There are a few of us left and we are all hardcore veterans of MMO forums and internet chat boards. We have all been around this forum for five years or so and have at least one large game collapse in common to jade our perspective on gaming companies and fan reaction.

There are common clanish tendacies even among a group of five people, but even that does not explain the behavior I think. I am very serious when I say the most rational thing I can think of is the infatuation. It's very startling when it comes to experienced posters, but it's the only thing I can think of when there are emotional outbirsts like this.

I wonder what the reaction would be if Bossner read this forum. You guys don't seem to have a problem mocking his dedication to his game of choice.

perfect's reaction to ArenaNet's tweet was more negative that mine (purely for illustrative purposes, I don't mean to throw you under the bus, dude) but I get called the asshat because of a pinota syndrome. <shrug> I may be the most cynical about games in development, but that still does not explain the emotional outburst by experienced posters.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

In hindsight, we can say that what Turbine did was no different from what ArenaNet did...because now we have the benefit of knowing that all the employees were laid off. Hindsight's always 20/20.

At the time when Turbine held their job fair, nobody knew (at least none of the public or the employees knew) that layoffs were eminent. ...

First, hindsight is not an issue because the characterization of Turbine as vultures in this discussion took place after the layoffs happened.

Secondly, nobody knew that layoffs would happen? That's like making a bet on the horse "I'll Have Another" in the Belmont Stakes and then claiming after he wins that "nobody could have know". Employees were not getting a paycheck, for heaven's sake. 38S had missed a loan payment and then bounced the late check. Top management left. To compare what we forum people knew did not knew at the time to what 38S employees knew is pretty egotistical.

Several applicants who said they were employed by 38 Studios attended a Providence recruiting event held by Turbine, Inc, said to be the largest creator and operator of video games in New England.

None of them would offer insight into what is going on inside Curt Schilling's company headqurters at 1 Empire Plaza. The company reportedly laid off an unknown number of employees and missed payroll last week.

...
Mersky would not say whether he knows how many were laid off by 38 Studios but he said the event was held in Providence because his company knew 38 Studios was facing some issues. He did not identify how many of the applicants were from 38 Studios.

So the job fair was on 21May12. You are saying that nobody knew that days before the axe came that there would be layoffs, despite the fact that rumors were saying that there were all ready some layoffs? It seems that Forbes does not agree with you.

This comes on the heels of the departure of the company’s CEO, Jennifer MacLean, and Senior Vice President, John Blakely earlier this week.

Employees were already working without pay, and were set to lose health benefits today. A massive lay-off seemed all but inevitable.

Thirdly, when faced with a company's major financial problems, employees ARE VERY interested if a company 40 miles away has jobs. To debate if holding a job fair is bad form or not is pretty meaningless to people who need a paycheck. If you were a 38S employee on 21May12 and heard about a job fair, would you not go because it was bad form to advertise to people who currently had jobs?

In fact, it will likely be no different at all for former 38 Studios employees to be laid off and then get their next job...because they can collect unemployment and have state-provided health insurance until their new job kicks in.

Having a job is the same thing to a family as government payments limited to $500 a week? They have all ready missed a paycheck, and now they have to apply for government payments, which will not start immediately. RI's unemployment rate is 11% right now. It's hard to believe how flippant you can be about maintaining a job to feed a family but so sensitive to "respect" one company gives to dying company that has not paid its employees.

[Fozzik]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

Yes, I do find it interesting. There are a few of us left and we are all hardcore veterans of MMO forums and internet chat boards. We have all been around this forum for five years or so and have at least one large game collapse in common to jade our perspective on gaming companies and fan reaction.

There are common clanish tendacies even among a group of five people, but even that does not explain the behavior I think. I am very serious when I say the most rational thing I can think of is the infatuation. It's very startling when it comes to experienced posters, but it's the only thing I can think of when there are emotional outbirsts like this.

Okay, so you find it interesting, but you completely assume it must be everyone else who has the problem, and not the one person who is common to every argument?

It's not just being critical or skeptical or cynical. It's the WAY you go about it. You are often insulting and dismissive, even on subjects where you know dramatically less than the person you are talking to. It leads to people getting bent out of shape. If you can't see you are doing that, you need to take a step back and re-evaluate your people skills.

I wonder what the reaction would be if Bossner read this forum. You guys don't seem to have a problem mocking his dedication to his game of choice.

Case in point. You feel a need to toss in a little barb, comparing us to Bossner, and indirectly calling us blind fanboys. Just make your argument and stop intentionally inciting people, is all I'm saying.

perfect's reaction to ArenaNet's tweet was more negative that mine (purely for illustrative purposes, I don't mean to throw you under the bus, dude) but I get called the asshat because of a pinota syndrome. <shrug> I may be the most cynical about games in development, but that still does not explain the emotional outburst by experienced posters.

Again, case in point. Perfect's reaction was contrary...but not personally insulting. You're reaction was personally insulting and belittling of other points of view. That explains the difference in the reaction. If you want to have legit discussion, knock of the snide BS little one-liners and state your opinion. Nobody here will have a problem with that.

[Fozzik]

On the topic of the current discussion -

Maybe them closing up shop was a forgone conclusion.The employees who've talked said they had no idea, but maybe they are lying. Maybe it's strictly a formality to wait until 38 Studios has exhausted all possible options and pulled out all the stops, and finally admitted defeat.

Personally, I still find it to be a respectful thing to honor that formality before enticing employees away. *shrug* It makes little difference in the big picture, I'll admit freely.

As I said, I don't fault Turbine for being a business, and doing what's best for themselves and their market position. That's what businesses should do. I certainly hope that 38 Studios employees find employment somewhere very soon... obviously unemployment is not the ideal, and would only be needed for a few days.

[perfect]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

...I don't think the ArenaNet message was not in that tone....

You confused me with this. Your double negative (which is grammatically correct) leads me to believe that that you think that AN's message WAS in that tone. Is that intentional?

Originally Posted by Loampounder

...perfect's reaction to ArenaNet's tweet was more negative that mine (purely for illustrative purposes, I don't mean to throw you under the bus, dude)....

My legs! Oh, God, my legs!

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Case in point. You feel a need to toss in a little barb, comparing us to Bossner, and indirectly calling us blind fanboys. Just make your argument and stop intentionally inciting people, is all I'm saying.

No, I simply pointing out YOUR (plural) reaction to someone obviously infatuated with a game and a game company. It's was not a barb at all, but just a discussion point. You say that it's all due to me and then dismiss example of the behavior in other people. That's extremely disingenuous, at best. The fact that you took a discussion point as a barb against you and assumed it was "indirectly" namecalling is pretty disturbing. You are reacting to your concept of me rather than to my words.

Bossner's name came up in this thread and based on some posters at 38S watch's characterization of a company compared to your characterization of ArenaNet, I think the discussion point is relevant. If Bossner was on this forum and reacted to your characterization of him, would you tell him to just shrug it off as only pundits talking? Would you blame yourself for implying mean things to him or would you just let him flame out when he takes things too personally?

Personally, I still find it to be a respectful thing to honor that formality before enticing employees away. *shrug* It makes little difference in the big picture, I'll admit freely.

I understand but you seem to condone overreaction against people who voice an opposite opinion.

obviously unemployment is not the ideal, and would only be needed for a few days.

I hope so. I have heard too many horror stories of extended unemployment over the past few years. Times are hard for the gaming industry with a number of public crashes recently.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by perfect

You confused me with this. Your double negative (which is grammatically correct) leads me to believe that that you think that AN's message WAS in that tone. Is that intentional?

No. I probably overthought the wording. I don't think ArenaNet's post was "smarmy". I think they were sincere (I took that part as face value, but there is a big gap between being sincere and "classy") but in a business way. In another way, they were not laughing, but they were still picking over the carcass.

My legs! Oh, God, my legs!

On the positive side, it's only a virtual wound. The legs will (virtually) grow back.

[Fozzik]

I've actually been having a nice conversation with Bossner all day in PMs over on the 38 Watch forums. He made an account at guildwars2guru.com, and already posted a hello and asked about the community.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Painterly art style? WTF? Way to try to bite off of GW2 while making zero sense.
...
I think he was taking a dig at GW2. I have no idea why...maybe they are bitter about it, or about WildStar releasing their graphical style a year before they did and getting credit for it around the web.

Why would you think that Moorguard was talking about GW2? PS - I am not Moorguard.

[Loampounder]

From 38S employees on the 38watch forum. It seems appropriate to put their voice into this discussion of the game.

We browse here, all right, and while I don't have the authority to speak for everyone, it's pretty safe to say that you all have been very much appreciated. This has been the highlight of my career, the best project and the best team I've ever had the privilege to have worked with. It's also been a huge privilege to have fans like you.

Thanks for all your dedication. Words cannot express my sorrow at this turn of events. How I wish we could have brought you all with us into Amalur. I'm still hoping for this to get pulled out of the fire at the last moment, but I find it hard to imagine how.

/cry (for real)


Alex Weissman
Environment Artist

I am absolutely heartbroken. I have given nearly 4 years of my life to this project and I, along with every other member of the 38 Studios family have given their heart and soul to Amalur. I was simply blown away every single day how gorgeous this game truly was. It was so hard to not scream from the rooftops just how special this project was. And you know what? It wasn't just the art, as beautiful as it is. It wasn't just the audio, which was awe-inspiring and ground breaking. It wasn't even the design, no matter how fun the gameplay was. It was all about the 38 Studios family.

Curt put together the finest assemblage of talent in this industry. I mentioned family, that is no lie. We were not just a team or a company, we were a family. All for one, one for all. I do not have enough superlatives to describe how amazing the last 4 years of my life have been.

While I am sad I may never get to launch my client and run through this gorgeous world populated with breathtaking zones, quests that run the spectrum from light-hearted and fun to touching and at times heart wrenching. I'm even more sad that you folks may never get to experience the magic of Amalur. When I say magic, I don't mean spells or mana, I mean the soul of this game. The thing that gave it life and set it apart from anything that has come before it. While they can take us away from the world of Amalur, they cannot take Amalur from within us. We fostered something very special here and no matter where we end up, we will be sure to put a tiny little piece of Amalur into everything else we do.

Jesse "Eldorudo" Smith
Project Copernicus
Content Designer

[AsheMan]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

I've actually been having a nice conversation with Bossner all day in PMs over on the 38 Watch forums. He made an account at guildwars2guru.com, and already posted a hello and asked about the community.

FOZZ! What did I say?! Now I have you to blame for bringing him into that community. That guy frustrated me so much on the Amalur forums.

[Fozzik]

Sorry...but I kind of feel like this massive blow to his ego from a game he was so emotionally invested in failing is enough to open his eyes a bit. I'm hoping he'll learn a lesson and take things a little easier. From what he's saying, it seems like that's what he wants to do... if he's a die-hard superfan for GW2 a week from now and yelling at Loam, I'll admit to a certain responsibility and apologize.

[Fozzik]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

Why would you think that Moorguard was talking about GW2? PS - I am not Moorguard.

The art director for GW2, Daniel Dociu, has repeatedly used the word "painterly" to describe his game's art style for years (there are tons of videos and articles to confirm this). It's not a word in common usage...and GW2's art style does indeed look like an oil painting...they very deliberately created that consistent look to the entire game. They even have objects fade in using brush strokes as they switch from one level of detail to the next with the textures.

Since ArenaNet has used that word for a long time, and it's not a word I would use to describe Copernicus' graphics at all (they are CGI animated graphics like Pixar or Disney computer animated films, and look nothing like a painting), I'm guessing it was a little jab in the direction of GW2 fans (probably outspoken ones on 38 Watch, like me).

Not at all a big deal, I just though it was odd and slightly amusing.

[AsheMan]

I'm not sure where you got the Moorguard quote from, but on the Amalur forums last week, a poster was talking about Copernicus and used the word painterly. Then Moorguard replied to that poster and said "painterly" was exactly the word to describe their art assets. Maybe he then went on to use "painterly" in other comments and that's when you stumbled onto it. I'm just speculating. Maybe it had nothing to do with GW2, but rather the comments of people on their own forums.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

. if he's a die-hard superfan for GW2 a week from now and yelling at Loam, I'll admit to a certain responsibility and apologize.

<shrug> superfans tend to do that

[perfect]

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/29/cu...on-38-studios/

So, am I reading that correctly in thinking that Shilling said that the Governor spilling the beans about a 2013 release is what caused them to fail (because a publisher pulled out)?

[perfect]

http://kotaku.com/5924410/the-traile...ull-never-play

[dabble]

There is a description of the trailer from Steve Danuser, formerly of 38 Studios here http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=741

Very sad, it all looks quite good to me.

[perfect]

Originally Posted by dabble

...Very sad, it all looks quite good to me.

Really? It looks quite generic and bland to me.