[Snake]

Originally Posted by rabb1t

I'll pass. I like girls.

Well if you are like other rabbits....

[Deadlyne]

Well sure I'll toss a few questions out there since everyone is doing it.

1. Can you give an example of how a diplomat actually makes any money? Do they gain it from diplomatic battles by convincing someone to give it to them? Or through other means? I know they need money in order to purchase some of the good diplo gear or something of that sort.

2. Is there any plan to make any groupable diplomatic content? NPCs that require multiple diplomats to work together in order to succeed.

3. Would it actually be possible to become a max level diplomat only doing diplomacy? Or would you need some adventuring levels just to survive the places you may need to go? By possible I don't mean a 1 in a million chance something more around just very challenging. And I'm only talking about levels here.

4. Will there be a conning system for diplomacy so you can know how difficult a diplomatic encounter will be? Like the adventuring sphere. Or are diplomatic "mobs" even ranked by level?

[Aruspex - SGO]

There's a lot of questions that aren't really in my arena to answer. I'll try and hit up a few diplomacy comments here and there, when I can.

In response to Doddy's question, the sad reality of putting several hundred to a few thousand dialogues into the game means that the dialogue is abstracted in the gameplay.

What this means is the connection between dialogue and gameplay is in a reward/game structure. The dialogue is your reward, doled out one line at a time each time you score a "point" in parley.

Believe me, we've tried a lot of ways to bring dialogue and the gameplay closer together, but in a fight between "realism" and fun, fun must always win out.

The gameplay of Diplomacy is an abstraction, just like everything in a game is an abstraction. The role of the designer in this case is to take the abstraction and highlight (or sometimes caricature) those things you think are important, while still remaining fun.

Variety of response is fun. While the ability you use may not have a one-to-one correlation to the progress of the dialogue, it's more important to have variety than to have a "player must do angry ability because the dialogue is going to get angry" situation.

Deadlyne, answering question 1, you get loot for things you do in Diplomacy. Some of it is abstracted, some of it is logical (when I entertain nobles, they tip me for my efforts). There's another system I'm working on that is a money-maker too, but we're not ready to talk about that.

Ok, I'd better get to work. Take care!

o
A

[greymain]

Diplomacy makes my brain hurt!!!

[Skarlath]

Good thing you'll have the alternative of chopping them into little pieces then, eh Greymain?

Thanks Aruspex!

[Spirit]

KERL SMASH!

[Tesh]

I think that abstracting the dialogue is a great idea, as anything else would probably be doomed to memorizing sequences of responses.

Aside from obvious differences in flavor, I'm curious how diplomacy sphere is going to play different then the adventuring sphere? It seems that in both you have an opponent, a set of abilities, and presumably you will have to use the abilities according to hints you get from the mob just like in the adventuring sphere. Are we going to see a lot more Player vs. Player content in the diplomacy sphere (even for non-PvP servers) where player can work to sway various things to different possible outcomes?

[Doddy]

Originally Posted by Tesh

Aside from obvious differences in flavor, I'm curious how diplomacy sphere is going to play different then the adventuring sphere? It seems that in both you have an opponent, a set of abilities, and presumably you will have to use the abilities according to hints you get from the mob just like in the adventuring sphere. Are we going to see a lot more Player vs. Player content in the diplomacy sphere (even for non-PvP servers) where player can work to sway various things to different possible outcomes?

Aruspex kind of answered this on the OVF here:

I want to address "solo" play and what it means to the diplomat. In various threads there's been some concern about how the solo diplomat will survive in a group-centered world.

While the physical actions you take as a diplomat are solo (player skill based and not group-required), the overall effect on the game world will be done in concert with other diplomats. Simply put, the more diplomats that work on a specific issue, the faster it gets to its resolution and the faster its benefits can be reaped by all.

The opposite is also true - if diplomats choose to work at cross-purposes, then no-one will be getting the larger benefits, though the diplomats will still get the usual rewards for success on an individual level.

So, you get rewarded for your solo play, and if you work together, you get rewarded for your cooperation. Working against each other will still result in solo reward, but will prevent benefits reaching the whole.

Players will have to choose to work together, or against one another. I imagine the sort of people attracted to this system will find mysterious and convoluted ways of working things out that I can scarcely imagine. As a designer, this is one of the most exciting parts of building this system.

[Deadlyne]

Great, thanks Aruspex. Its certainly nice to know that if I actually go basically full diplo as I've been considering I will be able to make my own money without resorting to the adventuring and crafting spheres. I really hope the diplomacy sphere will stand on its own. Though I'll most likely dabble in the adventuring too a bit.

[hipEflip]

Originally Posted by Aruspex - SGO

If any of you need anything... diplomatic... let me know.

o
A

What do you think we should do regarding current situation in Middle East?

[Tazzrin Jaegernaut]

Originally Posted by hipEflip

What do you think we should do regarding current situation in Middle East?

I would suggest showing up on their beachhead with an axe and armor... gotta keep it Vanguard realated.

[Aruspex - SGO]

Originally Posted by hipEflip

What do you think we should do regarding current situation in Middle East?

Humorously enough, I was a finalist to join the U.S. Foreign Service (went through the day long interview/testing/roleplaying/security check session and missed by .05 points). I was VERY close to a career as a professional diplomat.

For better or worse, I went into game design instead. The Department of State will have to muddle on without me.

So if you want my opinions on the current political situation in Thestra, THAT I can assess. The Middle East? Not qualified.

o
A

[Aruspex - SGO]

Originally Posted by Dreamer

I'm sure I'll get myself into trouble here.

...

How is this intuitive "feel" for communication translated to diplomacy gameplay?

Not exactly as you imagine, I suspect. Since this is a player-skill based system, your "feel" for communication is the assessment YOU make, as a player, about the NPC's abilities based on the clues provided.

A cocky bard wearing finery in the court of the king will most certainly be a flattery-based opponent. You, as the player, will thus choose to prepare yourself to defeat such a contest with anti-flattery abilities.

o
A

[Kvaser]

Hi and welcome

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by Aruspex - SGO

Well obviously I can't answer EVERY question, and I'm mostly concerned with letting folks know that we're hard at work on Diplomacy and that there's a lot we'd like to tell you when the time comes.

When thinking about how to make a game out of argument and discussion, my personal job was more on the "real world" side of things - how does manipulating THIS number represent a discussion? How about THIS one representing winning a discussion?

It turns out that just like making numbers out of conversation, we already make numbers out of a lot of stuff. How well does a shirt protect me from dragonfire? How about chain mail?

So you can apply this to Diplomacy. How well does a comment about your mother work on you? How about a careful listing of evidence for my cause? How about if I hit on you a little first?

Possibilities are endless.

o
A

Aye... they are. I've been fairly focused on diplomacy for some time now.

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by Aruspex - SGO

There's a lot of questions that aren't really in my arena to answer. I'll try and hit up a few diplomacy comments here and there, when I can.

In response to Doddy's question, the sad reality of putting several hundred to a few thousand dialogues into the game means that the dialogue is abstracted in the gameplay.

What this means is the connection between dialogue and gameplay is in a reward/game structure. The dialogue is your reward, doled out one line at a time each time you score a "point" in parley.

Believe me, we've tried a lot of ways to bring dialogue and the gameplay closer together, but in a fight between "realism" and fun, fun must always win out.

The gameplay of Diplomacy is an abstraction, just like everything in a game is an abstraction. The role of the designer in this case is to take the abstraction and highlight (or sometimes caricature) those things you think are important, while still remaining fun.

Variety of response is fun. While the ability you use may not have a one-to-one correlation to the progress of the dialogue, it's more important to have variety than to have a "player must do angry ability because the dialogue is going to get angry" situation.

Deadlyne, answering question 1, you get loot for things you do in Diplomacy. Some of it is abstracted, some of it is logical (when I entertain nobles, they tip me for my efforts). There's another system I'm working on that is a money-maker too, but we're not ready to talk about that.

Ok, I'd better get to work. Take care!

o
A

I'm relaxed and having coffee... I've done all my work on my abstract... (well not all, but the concept is done)

I'd have to play test this.. describe formulas for resolutions, balance it out IOW's

Anyways I posted this yesterday, and have since edited in a few holes.. just stuff I skipped in my original idea thread at VGtact. It's also posted at VGtact now. It's been a fun puzzle for me. I'm anxious to see what Sigil comes up with.

I realise my version may not be fun for everyone, but I took on the problem for entertainment. Also as I'm no designer, I'm sure it can be hacked to bits. But here's the link at the OVF
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/sh...33&postcount=5

An organised look at a diplomacy abstract (or game within a game).

[Aruspex - SGO]

Originally Posted by Tesh

I think that abstracting the dialogue is a great idea, as anything else would probably be doomed to memorizing sequences of responses.

Aside from obvious differences in flavor, I'm curious how diplomacy sphere is going to play different then the adventuring sphere? It seems that in both you have an opponent, a set of abilities, and presumably you will have to use the abilities according to hints you get from the mob just like in the adventuring sphere. Are we going to see a lot more Player vs. Player content in the diplomacy sphere (even for non-PvP servers) where player can work to sway various things to different possible outcomes?

Some of this stuff you're asking is super-sekret sauce, so I don't want to jump my bosses on this, but I do want to talk about "how it will play different."

In the end, Adventuring, Harvesting, Crafting, and Diplomacy all are functionally similar in that you have abilities, and you select them to make things happen. Where the differences come in are mainly twofold:

1) Timescale - Diplomacy is turn-based, which means it is the slowest of the four gameplay styles by default.

2) Look'n'feel - Diplomacy looks different in a lot of ways from the other spheres. There's a playfield, and a place where you set up your abilities. Diplomacy moves at a more sedate pace, so unless you're in danger of being attacked, I'd expect players to arrange the windows around the NPC, not worrying about keeping a lookout around them for mobs. This means that your focus isn't on the world any longer - it's the playfield and everything that happens on it.

And the kicker is a big difference:

3) Flow - In Diplomacy, it isn't a relentless race straight from start to finish. On any given parley, you'll be winning for a bit, and losing for a bit, then winning again, and so on. When you get good at the gameplay, you'll crush an NPC you've specially prepared for, but you'll still have a couple turns in which you are "losing" while you prepare for the big push.

I played a new NPC I created the other day and was shocked when my random factors put me in a position in which I was losing, despite my strategy being much more sound than the one I gave the AI. The opponent got within one point of victory, with me having made almost no progress, and I came from behind with smart playing and beat him. It felt really good to be able to do that, knowing my skill in using my abilities made the difference.

I have another test-dude named Mysterious Gent who regularly destroyed testers for what appeared to me at the time to be no good reason. But... the gauntlet was thrown down - who could take on the Gent and take him out? I knew Diplomacy was going to do just fine when I saw a couple guys put their heads together and come up with a plan. They each tried a version of it, and it worked!

Soon the word was out. Mysterious Gent had a weakness. Use THIS type of ability to starve him out. Use THIS type of ability to stay ahead of his power curve.

It makes me a little sad seeing him standing in his little tent in my testing area, knowing he is no longer the powerhouse he once was, but that's the essence of this system - you'll lose a few times, learn their weaknesses, then defeat them. And when you get REALLY good, you'll just look at them and be 90% of the way there to knowing what you'll have to do to beat them. That's the point where you're a master at Diplomacy.

o
A

[Atoyota]

I'm looking forward to it...

I know recently I've posted my theories on this abstract, but in so doing I see what is possible. I'm very excited.

Yes!

[Atoyota]

oh... and if my speculation has "annoyed" anyone... Then I'd best be told. (would'nt you think?)

[Bolshoi]

Originally Posted by Aruspex - SGO

Some of this stuff you're asking is super-sekret sauce, so I don't want to jump my bosses on this, but I do want to talk about "how it will play different."

In the end, Adventuring, Harvesting, Crafting, and Diplomacy all are functionally similar in that you have abilities, and you select them to make things happen. Where the differences come in are mainly twofold:

1) Timescale - Diplomacy is turn-based, which means it is the slowest of the four gameplay styles by default.

2) Look'n'feel - Diplomacy looks different in a lot of ways from the other spheres. There's a playfield, and a place where you set up your abilities. Diplomacy moves at a more sedate pace, so unless you're in danger of being attacked, I'd expect players to arrange the windows around the NPC, not worrying about keeping a lookout around them for mobs. This means that your focus isn't on the world any longer - it's the playfield and everything that happens on it.

And the kicker is a big difference:

3) Flow - In Diplomacy, it isn't a relentless race straight from start to finish. On any given parley, you'll be winning for a bit, and losing for a bit, then winning again, and so on. When you get good at the gameplay, you'll crush an NPC you've specially prepared for, but you'll still have a couple turns in which you are "losing" while you prepare for the big push.

I played a new NPC I created the other day and was shocked when my random factors put me in a position in which I was losing, despite my strategy being much more sound than the one I gave the AI. The opponent got within one point of victory, with me having made almost no progress, and I came from behind with smart playing and beat him. It felt really good to be able to do that, knowing my skill in using my abilities made the difference.

I have another test-dude named Mysterious Gent who regularly destroyed testers for what appeared to me at the time to be no good reason. But... the gauntlet was thrown down - who could take on the Gent and take him out? I knew Diplomacy was going to do just fine when I saw a couple guys put their heads together and come up with a plan. They each tried a version of it, and it worked!

Soon the word was out. Mysterious Gent had a weakness. Use THIS type of ability to starve him out. Use THIS type of ability to stay ahead of his power curve.

It makes me a little sad seeing him standing in his little tent in my testing area, knowing he is no longer the powerhouse he once was, but that's the essence of this system - you'll lose a few times, learn their weaknesses, then defeat them. And when you get REALLY good, you'll just look at them and be 90% of the way there to knowing what you'll have to do to beat them. That's the point where you're a master at Diplomacy.

o
A

This really does sound awesome. The only thing that has me worried is that once someone finds the weakness, the mob is powerless, just like in your Mysterious Gent example. This information will obviously make it out to spoiler sites, and then no one who reads it will ever have any problems with diplomacy. Is there going to be some kind of random factor that will prevent a single strategy from working every single time? Or (and this is a very long shot) maybea learning program, that will strengthen it's defenses to a certain tactic, while weakening itself to another, so that the same strategy doesn't always work?

It sounds like it's going to be a load of fun, I'm just worried about it becoming too easy once the code is cracked.