[user001]

ok here i go-whine, whine, whine, cry, cry, cry.

these song need to be tweaked i think, or maybe some one could explain why the seem so useless.


ariezel assonace of pain lvl 12 (i think)- does 10dmg every 6sec. worthless.

IIIestine's harmony of warmth lvl 17- increases the cold resist of group by 8 and burns attackers for a whooping 4 damage. thats right 4 damage at lvl 17.

Irion's psalm of shields lvl 17- increase armor class by 14, inc block by 5 and absorbs damage each pulse. 14 ac at 17 isnt nothing. i haven't used so i can talk about the rest of the spell.

IIIestine's harmony of cold lvl 19- increases the cold resist of group by 8 and burns attackers for a instance kill of 4 damage. thats right 4 damage at lvl 19.
hmm guess that IIIestine thought that his song was so good he gave it to use again at lvl 19. sigh

Sever the ties IV at lvl 28- does norm melee damage plus 72. seems kinda weak for level 28, dont think 72 dmg is going to make to much diff.

Ariezel's resounding reverberation lvl 32- DEAL 6 DAMAGE (that right six dmg) to any who attacks group. so i guess the higher the mobs level the less hippionts they have.

Ariezel's deafening discord lvl 48- DEALS 8 dmg ( come on 8 dmg, it's so sad it funny to me)to any who attack group.

Beside these and a couple more of songs that are totally useless. a few songs are just the same songs with different names.

also alot of the songs need better descriptions, with stat numbers.

hopeful these could get looking into and tweaked some.

on a side note while im whining and crying-

the dark elf racial ablitiy- their pet is pretty much useless, cept for the buff you can get.(putting aside the fact his damage is useless, which i dont care about that) but it/he only last 30-45 secs. maybe a 1min. he might last longer at higher levels 30+.

anyways have fun all.

[user001]

i won't hold my breath but i would like to know the peeps at sigils thoughts on this issuse, or if they even think it is or isn't a issue.

[ShadeVice]

I hear ya, just the other night me and my buddies were gathered around the tavern table drinking some ale...

this bard walked in, began to sing.

At first it wasnt bad, but then he hit a high note and our glass mugs shattered!

please fix this bug

[Tem]

Keep in mind that these numbers will be modified by your instrument. I have no idea how high instrument mods go, but if you get something that quadruples the effects of a certain type of spell, that 8pt DS could turn into a 32pt DS, which isn't that bad, really.

I have no idea how bards work or how well they are balanced, just making sure you realize that these instruments are what songs need to be balanced around.

[Seenon]

Originally Posted by Tem

Keep in mind that these numbers will be modified by your instrument. I have no idea how high instrument mods go, but if you get something that quadruples the effects of a certain type of spell, that 8pt DS could turn into a 32pt DS, which isn't that bad, really.

I have no idea how bards work or how well they are balanced, just making sure you realize that these instruments are what songs need to be balanced around.

Yes they are modded by our instruments that (supposidly will go to 3.0 mods at lvl 50). But why should we have to wait for a Rare drop raid drum to get a 32 damage shield and then sacrafice all of our dps for it?

Now what about them wounderfull regen songs we get.. HAH

I was told by a wiz to turn it off because he saw absolutly NO DIFFERENCE in his mana regen and his skills are better suited to give him mana quicker. Id be better off just singing the damage song as normal. Same goes for the healing song.

I have over 6 components now stacked in with healing effect yet the most I can get out of it with a lute equiped is roughly 100hps ever 6 seconds. These need to be revamped..along with a ton of other song components.

[garath]

Don't forget you can add multiple components to each song not to mention the instrument modifier.

[Tem]

Originally Posted by Seenon

Yes they are modded by our instruments that (supposidly will go to 3.0 mods at lvl 50). But why should we have to wait for a Rare drop raid drum to get a 32 damage shield and then sacrafice all of our dps for it?

Now what about them wounderfull regen songs we get.. HAH

I was told by a wiz to turn it off because he saw absolutly NO DIFFERENCE in his mana regen and his skills are better suited to give him mana quicker. Id be better off just singing the damage song as normal. Same goes for the healing song.

I have over 6 components now stacked in with healing effect yet the most I can get out of it with a lute equiped is roughly 100hps ever 6 seconds. These need to be revamped..along with a ton of other song components.

If they only scale to 3.0 then I agree, some things need to change. I'd argue though that bards, moreso than any other class, have lots of little skills that add up to a lot. Just because you can't regenerate HP ridiculously fast and put a huge DS on the group and impart 40% haste doesn't mean you can't do a fraction of that and a lot more. You also get some nice damage it seems.

Nonetheless, I'm sure balancing is still to come for all classes. Just gotta tough it out in the meantime.

[garath]

Originally Posted by Seenon

I have over 6 components now stacked in with healing effect yet the most I can get out of it with a lute equiped is roughly 100hps ever 6 seconds. These need to be revamped..along with a ton of other song components.

If you are less than level 18, that's 50% of the healing a disciple can do with our Heal over time. If you are over 18 then that's 25% our HoT. Pretty darn good for a melee DPS class.

[Elrar]

You have to remember that level, instrument, and the fact that there are many components that make up a song all play a factor in the end result of that song. The way to compose is equally as important as the components themselves, if not moreso.

Sure you can have a song that heals, increases run speed, adds haste, and does DD all in one, but the end result is pretty flat and useless.

So while these numbers in the components seem insignificant on their own, used situationally and with the proper composition they are very powerful tools, you have to keep it in perspective.

[Seenon]

Originally Posted by Elrar

You have to remember that level, instrument, and the fact that there are many components that make up a song all play a factor in the end result of that song. The way to compose is equally as important as the components themselves, if not moreso.

Sure you can have a song that heals, increases run speed, adds haste, and does DD all in one, but the end result is pretty flat and useless.

So while these numbers in the components seem insignificant on their own, used situationally and with the proper composition they are very powerful tools, you have to keep it in perspective.

Elrar,

I truly dont see how at lvl 28 now with all my heal song equiped that this can be the way it was meant to be. 100 hps ever 6 seconds. When mobs are popping off near 300-400 per second?

When all healers/nukers have 0 trouble keeping mana there no real point in the mana song.

How does sitting at the back of the crowd playing a instrument truly adding to the immersion of the bard class?

Many Many song components are not worthwhile.. you say situational.. ok but when that situation only presents itself once every level?

I have yet to be in a "Situation" which requires me to use my damage shield, my ac/rune buffs.. they just do not add enough to the tank or group to truly balance out. Instument or not - Maby the situation is different at level 50, but do I have to wait to have some sort of usefullness..

[Azathul]

Originally Posted by Elrar

You have to remember that level, instrument, and the fact that there are many components that make up a song all play a factor in the end result of that song. The way to compose is equally as important as the components themselves, if not moreso.

Sure you can have a song that heals, increases run speed, adds haste, and does DD all in one, but the end result is pretty flat and useless.

So while these numbers in the components seem insignificant on their own, used situationally and with the proper composition they are very powerful tools, you have to keep it in perspective.

I think the perspective is something the Bards need/want more of. We are currently in the dark on what role the game has for the Bard and what the devs are looking for in terms of 'balance'. And since we are in the dark we are left looking at a variety of puzzle pieces to try and figure out what the picture is.

The vast empty spaces in the picture leave us using a combination of logic and intuition to fill them and then having to rely on this guess for our feedback. There is no way to tell if we are right or wrong because there isn't enough communication for us to know. This means we are left with 'plausible guesses'.

Guess: The Bard is being balanced for what it will be able to do at fifty with rare instruments possessed of significant multpliers and song elements in every category with the same focus. All song components are based around this so the Bard suffers from massive scaling issues where a component that may be powerful when combined with five others of the same type and a heavy multiplier is unbelievably weak at lower levels where you can only combine two for face value.

Guess: The Bard is being balanced around its utility. But the people balancing the Bard do not feel a need to take into account that while a Bard can do many different things they can only do one at a time. So Bard abilities are all balanced to be significantly weaker for a versatility they don't entirely have.

The vast majority of what the Bards have to judge on at the moment is guesswork and being forced to compare ourself to other class's abilities and try to figure out why ours seem less. A Shaman with a 500 point heal at level 4. A Cleric with a 90 HP 100 AC buff at level 2. And a Bard who can't remotely duplicate either of those effects with songs at level 20.

There is also some issue with the idea that if a Bard song is supposed to be made up of homogenous elements to be useful then the bard really isn't as varied as everyone is being led to believe. They'll have maybe a dozen songs at max level to switch amongst...

While you'll never get rid of all of the questions you can reduce the guesswork and griping if there is actual communication about what a Bard is and is not supposed to be. And communication that isn't just veiled implications but more concrete measures that we can judge on.

[Faite]

Originally Posted by Elrar

You have to remember that level, instrument, and the fact that there are many components that make up a song all play a factor in the end result of that song. The way to compose is equally as important as the components themselves, if not moreso.

Sure you can have a song that heals, increases run speed, adds haste, and does DD all in one, but the end result is pretty flat and useless.

So while these numbers in the components seem insignificant on their own, used situationally and with the proper composition they are very powerful tools, you have to keep it in perspective.

Im wondering why bard songs don't have music attached to them, or do they and I have just missed it? (im not a bard but had one in beta)

[Geldoff]

Originally Posted by user001

ok here i go-whine, whine, whine, cry, cry, cry.

these song need to be tweaked i think, or maybe some one could explain why the seem so useless.


ariezel assonace of pain lvl 12 (i think)- does 10dmg every 6sec. worthless.

IIIestine's harmony of warmth lvl 17- increases the cold resist of group by 8 and burns attackers for a whooping 4 damage. thats right 4 damage at lvl 17.

Irion's psalm of shields lvl 17- increase armor class by 14, inc block by 5 and absorbs damage each pulse. 14 ac at 17 isnt nothing. i haven't used so i can talk about the rest of the spell.

IIIestine's harmony of cold lvl 19- increases the cold resist of group by 8 and burns attackers for a instance kill of 4 damage. thats right 4 damage at lvl 19.
hmm guess that IIIestine thought that his song was so good he gave it to use again at lvl 19. sigh

Sever the ties IV at lvl 28- does norm melee damage plus 72. seems kinda weak for level 28, dont think 72 dmg is going to make to much diff.

Ariezel's resounding reverberation lvl 32- DEAL 6 DAMAGE (that right six dmg) to any who attacks group. so i guess the higher the mobs level the less hippionts they have.

Ariezel's deafening discord lvl 48- DEALS 8 dmg ( come on 8 dmg, it's so sad it funny to me)to any who attack group.

Beside these and a couple more of songs that are totally useless. a few songs are just the same songs with different names.

also alot of the songs need better descriptions, with stat numbers.

hopeful these could get looking into and tweaked some.

on a side note while im whining and crying-

the dark elf racial ablitiy- their pet is pretty much useless, cept for the buff you can get.(putting aside the fact his damage is useless, which i dont care about that) but it/he only last 30-45 secs. maybe a 1min. he might last longer at higher levels 30+.

anyways have fun all.

They are of course not all songs (not to ment to be used alone), but part of songs and can be combined with other things. I do agree that most of the bard "dots" are completely worthless even as additions to other songs though.

[user001]

Originally Posted by user001

ok here i go-whine, whine, whine, cry, cry, cry.

these song need to be tweaked i think, or maybe some one could explain why they seem so useless.

IIIestine's harmony of warmth lvl 17- increases the cold resist of group by 8 and burns attackers for a whooping 4 damage. thats right 4 damage at lvl 17.

IIIestine's harmony of cold lvl 19- increases the cold resist of group by 8 and burns attackers for a instance kill of 4 damage. thats right 4 damage at lvl 19.
hmm guess that IIIestine thought that his song was so good he gave it to use again at lvl 19. sigh

a few songs are just the same songs with different names.

also alot of the songs need better descriptions, with stat numbers.

anyways have fun all.

thanks everyone for pointing out certain acpects that MAY make these songs seem not so useless. IIIestines harmony of warmth and harmony of cold either have a misspelling- or the same song got put in twice by mistake, i would guess. still myself, would like some better descriptions at higher levels<-----still have to whine about something or i would feel left out of the forums

[Korupt]

The only useful songs we have are run speed, haste and the regen song with a Lute. Combine that with poor DPS and you have a useless class better left to cab service.

"Where to buddy?"

[Hackworth]

This is exactly how Bard songs were in EQ. Essentially, until you were in your 30s... songs were nice to keep running, but nothing you couldn't do without. Then around 36 they became indispensable tools that everyone wanted to take advantage of. Maybe we do need a song buffing up, but I wouldn't worry too much until we're higher level. Any 30+ bards want to speak to this?

[Tarikko]

Originally Posted by Elrar

You have to remember that level, instrument, and the fact that there are many components that make up a song all play a factor in the end result of that song. The way to compose is equally as important as the components themselves, if not moreso.

Sure you can have a song that heals, increases run speed, adds haste, and does DD all in one, but the end result is pretty flat and useless.

So while these numbers in the components seem insignificant on their own, used situationally and with the proper composition they are very powerful tools, you have to keep it in perspective.

I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean Elrar

Guesses:

#1 At level 20 your DoT/Regen/Damage Shield song is showing lousy returns because we are balancing for level 50 raiding

#2 You should be seeing more than 35 dmg / 6 secs (using an instrument), but you aren't because you do not have enough component slots yet. Wait til higher level before it becomes useful.

#3 People are composing songs incorrectly, not stacking effects nor using instruments.

#4 We are satisfied with the numbers we are seeing for a bard who uses instruments in group. Due to the fact that these effects may be fairly powerful with raid instruments at level 50, they are kept in check from the start.


My Answers (based on the guesses)

1. I know this was how it was done for Runspeed, but this doesnt seem that powerful even at level 50 if stacked to the max. Is it then an issue of instrument mods becoming crazy in end game scenarios?

2. Components should be appropriate to the level you are when you get them.
When it takes me 10 minutes to kill a level 2 rat (something you can kill with a sneeze) with my first dot song I get, I'm not amused.

3. I have seen this, so I can understand why you would say this. However, the bards who do know what they are doing are still seeing very low numbers for almost every song.

4. Again, balance 50 at 50 and please let us feel useful for the rest of the game. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is no way you could be satisfied with a 1.66 dps song (w/o instrument) or a 4 pt dmg shield. Holding instruments while running or charming/lull is wonderful (yes i know right now its a spell -wtb a real lull song, with song fx), but if it comes time to fight? im ceartainly not going to be holding an instrument to up that damage shield to 10 pts. You could always nuder the classes dps to convince bards that holding instruments in groups is the only way to live, but I know thats not Sigil's direction with the bard.


I think most of us just want to know the direction of the bard. Will we always be the mediocre "jack of all trades" (which we are not)

I would argue that: We dont do anything half as well as any of the classes, so therefore we cannot even technically be a jack. Bards have to focus on one thing at a time, and most people forget that.

Ranger for example can snare, shoot, heal self, self buff.

Bard has to switch songs to do each thing, of course assuming you dont want every song to have a bit of EVERY component. Sure you can make a buff / snare / runspeed / heal song and do everything, but it'll be horrid.

As it stands now, I play a stacked DPS song while meleeing and a full on runspeed song when running. I've tested my regen out of combat with the healing song, and I havent noticed a difference. The rest of the components just dont deserve a slot on my hotbar right now. (also note that the frost blades proc doesnt seem to work either)

Please tell us the songs are considered "working as intended" so I can just accept my station in life as a slightly useful travel guide. edit: didnt mean to sound whiny there, just saying I would like to know if I'm going to be a jukebox in raids and mostly a puller in groups (this part is fun).

(btw bard is the 2nd least played class) -food for thought-

[Garwayne]

Elrar, you make it sound like we haven't figured out that components need to be stacked to be effective. I'm sure most bards have tried songs of almost every possible combination to test their effectiveness.

At level 18, the only 2 songs I use with regularity are stacked damage and stacked runspeed. Then for utility I have a safe fall song and a breath underwater song.

The only instrument worth using is a drum. I really don't understand why we would want to hold an instrument during combat. I think instruments should be holdable in one hand, instead of two. Then I would consider dropping one of my dual wield weapons for an instrument.

[Seenon]

ALthough I agree with what Elrar is saying and maby the songs at 50 are great. But either 1 im doing somthing wrong as a lvl 28 bard or some of you bards that seem to believe all our songs have their appropriate times for use has some magical technique that I have yet to discover.

Let me explain myself.

At lvl 28 I have a few varity of song that I use depending on my mana consumption during a fight and the damage output needed for the group.

I understand the stacking of song components and do know how to compose good songs. Now here is where things get good.

With my battle songs I can create a multitude of songs that have varying effects that depending ont eh fight im in I will use. Each seem to put out a degree of dps depending on the group. Ill give you my composition list of a couple of my battle songs quick.

Main battle song

Melody:
Mellarien's Anthem of war
Embellishments: Mellariens Harmony of War x 2 Hazoc's Harmony of Haste
Lyrics: Hazoc's Hasty Lyric x 2, 10 point rest
Chorus: Requiem of War x 2
Verse: Rest 8 Point

The other battle songs are some sort of variation to this.. I can take out the rests for added damange sapping mana more quickly or I can add in the proc songs -- Which DO work btw turn on your battle spam and you will see the procs --

I have yet to do any sort of battle parsing so havnt yet found the best songs combinations to use. As it is highly depending on the group I am in. Due to the 25% haste cap (if this is true) I feel that our haste songs are a waste because other classes get huge haste buffs.

Now think of the other songs we get as our primary.. in order to get them to any sort of benifit you have to turn off this hugly benificial song to the group.

So the downfall to the group is a huge DPS decrease plus take you out of the battle due to having to equip a instrument to get any real effect of the songs.

Now let me compose my Mana regen song for you.. as this should benifit the group as a whole and allow the nukers appkly a huge dps increase due to the mana regeneration.

Mellody:Circel's Anthem of Clarity
Embellishments: 10 point rest, 8 point rest, Emboldening Embellishment
Chorus: Calm Thoughts x 3
Lyrics: (I would put Hazocs magical aura here if we did get it at 25) right now rests.
Verse: Air of the Clear mind

Now this song I had on in a group while doing a raid mob to help with mana regeneration. I was promptly told to turn it off as the dps decrease that it had was too large to benifit the group. The Sorcs said they had no noticable performance increase with the song playing, nor did anyone see any sort of benifit to their mana regeneration due to their large mana pools.

Myself I could see the added tick of mana per 6 seconds but thats only because of my small mana pool. It was adding a rougly 1% of mana per 6 seconds.. which at 880 mana is not much.

This all while decreasing the damage of the group I was in my a HUGE amount.. to be mild about it maby 300dps between 3 folks. Where as the DPS increase and healing properties of the group were not positivly affected to see any dps increase from nukers or healing benifit to healers. So now I ask WHATS the POINT?

This is the same situation when thinking of the Defensive increase that I can give the entire party.. the rune the ac .. blah blah. These increase are so minute when compaired to the high ac levels and damage taken at these levels that its pointless.

I say again whats the point. We need to have the same type of benifit to the group as with our battle song in order to have our group comfortable with saying Yes.. play that healing song or that mana regen song.. or the defense song.

I wait for your uber bards/or Elrar's response...

[Traekor]

I'm a level 29 about to hit 30 bard. I must say I love the direction Vanguard has gone for the bard, and have enjoyed the maneuverability and versatility this class has to offer as a mix of kiting, archery, melee, and group utility.

On songs, I have the staple 'utility' songs all bards have: Speed, Invis, Levitate, Safefall, Underwater, and mixtures of those - Then heal/cure/mana regen songs in an attempt to speed up downtime.

I have only a few 'battle songs' (excluding more powerful/less rest variations). I'll put these into a few categories:

Bow/Kite - This song emphasizes the snare of march of the mire and gammael's blades of flame/frost with a brass instrument. While these proc components seem useless in melee, they really shrine in archery when you have a good brass. With around 60-70% proc rate, all arrows tend to do an extra 70-95ish damage. Other components/rests as appropriate.

Nuke/Caster friendly - I have one song where I again, use march of the mire, and load up with a few -resist components, and chorale of calm thoughts. While I do have as much mana regen as I can in this song, the difference it makes seems negligible. Two of chorale's though seem to help when I group with my friends (druid/sorc/bm etc) especially when I use a brass (if we're kiting).

Melee song - speaks for itself, I think all bards more or less have their own preferred variant of this.

I have a few other songs, but more or less these seem to be the 'core' combat songs. Now some comments on some components and why they don't appear to be useful:

The DoT/damage song components: These have a range of < 10 yards. They are useless kiting (unless it's a pure melee mob and you're using barbed arrows.. still not much room). Solo, damage is higher with dps components - and in group, hey we're a group buff class, why would you use a low dot instead of a group wide buff component? As of now, I've tried using them, but unless their range is increased I don't see much practical application.

The damage shield components - unless there is some area in the upper levels with very very low health mobs in giant numbers - seriously what is the point? To get any worthwhile returns you'd have to sacrifice all of your components slots and use an instrument. We'd do more dps with our weapons than the damage shield could hope to do. This seems flawed thinking. Perhaps if some of these components were combined, or the resist part was increased to seem more useful this wouldn't be so bad.

The static +4 attack embellishments: great on early levels, but become obsolete due to 3/sec energy cost, and well, only 4 damage! These are not increased by instrument, and do not scale as you level up. Either make it 1%, or a "range" that depends on your level; ie, 4-16 depending on your level.

I'm not at home at the moment, but that's all I can think of offhand component wise.

Finally, I do have one other comment that has probably been brought up elsewhere and isn't necessarily bard specific (though with our lev we possibly notice it more often) is the z-axis npc ignore distance bug. In Vanguard, if you are above about 3 feet from the ground, npc's gain the ability to ignore any distance and smack you around as if you were right next to them. This happens when jumping off high heights, leving off a hill/water while running, flying around, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying remove NPC countermeasures form 'perching' (killing where they can't reach you via sky). I'm saying NPC's should still be required to move adjacent (for their x/y axises) to hit the player with melee abilities. Our levitation might be practical for escapes then ;p