[posterboy]

First of all, big THANK YOU to Sigil for giving us lots of new abilities to play with. I'm very happy with finally having a snare.

However, I tried out all my new abilities today, and encountered the following scenario.

I'm level 17, and I tried fighting a single level 15 3-dot mob. I didn't die this time, like I usually do, but I did get knocked down to about 1% health.

So then I sit back and watch as a level *14* Disciple proceeds to solo not just one, but *two* of the exact same mobs. And he defeats them easily.

The key difference I saw? Healing. No matter how much they hit him, he simply healed himself right back up. Meanwhile, I have absolutely NO way to heal myself in this game.

Maybe somebody can correct me, but as far as I know, there are no potions, bandages, scrolls, or any other healing device for a rogue. This is what usually ends up killing me.

So, Sigil, many other classes in the game are solo'ing these 3-dot (and sometimes 4-dot) mobs. Please either let Rogues enjoy in the fun, or make everyone as weak as we are. I don't want to throw away 17 levels of hard work by re-rolling something else. I like my rogue. But currently he's weaker than a 3rd-grade school girl. Help!

[Demonix]

Get a group. Problem solved. With the DPS boost you might actually find a group as a rogue whereas you were hard pressed to before. This is supposed to be a group game, and rogues definitely are not supposed to solo. You know why the disciple was healing? Because he's a HEALER. Now here's a thought, instead of logging to go and complain on the forums, ask the disc to duo with you and you'll plow through higher lvl 3-dots much faster than either of you were soloing the lower lvl ones and get way more xp and higher lvl loot.

[Kexin]

Originally Posted by Demonix

Get a group. Problem solved. With the DPS boost you might actually find a group as a rogue whereas you were hard pressed to before. This is supposed to be a group game, and rogues definitely are not supposed to solo. You know why the disciple was healing? Because he's a HEALER. Now here's a thought, instead of logging to go and complain on the forums, ask the disc to duo with you and you'll plow through higher lvl 3-dots much faster than either of you were soloing the lower lvl ones and get way more xp and higher lvl loot.

This would make no sense since the discp could easily plow through 3 dots mob solo and get faster xp while keeping all the loot. When he pulls more than one mob he can FD.

While I don't play a rogue it seems this class need more help. The have zero ultility and whatever dps they provide doesn't set them apart. Most groups will invite a ranger and never notice the difference.

[posterboy]

Originally Posted by Demonix

Get a group. Problem solved. With the DPS boost you might actually find a group as a rogue whereas you were hard pressed to before. This is supposed to be a group game, and rogues definitely are not supposed to solo. You know why the disciple was healing? Because he's a HEALER. Now here's a thought, instead of logging to go and complain on the forums, ask the disc to duo with you and you'll plow through higher lvl 3-dots much faster than either of you were soloing the lower lvl ones and get way more xp and higher lvl loot.

Your "solution" doesn't solve the problem at all. I do group for dungeons. Other times I solo. I am not doing anything wrong by wanting to solo sometimes. Don't try to tell how I'm supposed to be playing. Yeah, I could also just go do Diplomacy and Crafting, that'd solve the problem too, right?

Fine, the Disciple is a healer. And yet he is apparently also a damage dealer, because he wiped the floor with those 3-dot mobs. If it took him 10 minutes to kill a single mob, I'd be cool with his survivability. But that's not the case.

[Demonix]

How can you complain after discs had their dmg ubernerfed a few patches ago? They're doing around 1/5th-1/3rd of the dmg they used to by varying accounts. And as to the first reply, the disciple would not kill things faster than he would duo'd. As long as the rogue isn't doing negative damage (figure that one out for me) they would be killing faster. If the disc tanks, the rogue can be behind the mob using his high dmg flanking skills which means the rogue is doing far more dps than solo and also contributing more to the duo. With the disc tanking and rogue being able to rupture and backstab without needing to stun they will be killing things ridiculously fast after this last patch. If they can kill 1.8 things in the time it would take the disc to kill 1, they will be getting more xp (assuming 5% bonus per member for a duo...I don't remember the actual numbers). No, discs don't have things like taunts, but they have good dps output and heals which is more than enough to hold aggro as long as the rogue doesn't go nuts on his dps output and uses his aggro management skills.

EDIT: Just thought I'd point out that a rogue should be outdmging a disc, especially while behind the mob, which would mean they would be killing at least twice as fast as the disc alone. Basically guarantees the duo would get faster xp. Simple math.

And, I never said you can't solo. You are trying to solo 3-dots, which are supposed to be for duos or better. Just because some classes can do it, doesn't mean that's the intent. Go solo 2-dots if you have to solo. But don't come on here whining that a healer can solo 3-dots and you can't. Especially after playing all 4 healer classes, while they can take down 3-4 dots, it's slow and boring, especially on 4-dots. Also, FD is a joke for disciples and barely ever works when needed. If you want to complain about their survivability leave that skill out of the conversation.

Before this patch rogues had trouble with 2-dots, and now even they can solo 3-dots if they are geared well and know how to play their class (go to the safehouse, people have been reporting their successes after the patch and a few people have said they'd taken down 3-dots). Don't complain that you can't take 3-dots, and go solo 2-dots as you're supposed to. The bottom line is that while healers can take 3-4 dots solo, it's slower than grouping or grinding 2-dots at a faster pace and the only thing it's good for is pissing off the likes of you. Yes, they can finish some quests that you can't without a group, but they can't sneak all the way to the end of a dungeon with sorc/psion/ranger support to take out a boss without crawling through it.

[posterboy]

Originally Posted by Demonix

How can you complain after discs had their dmg ubernerfed a few patches ago? They're doing around 1/5th-1/3rd of the dmg they used to by varying accounts. And as to the first reply, the disciple would not kill things faster than he would duo'd. As long as the rogue isn't doing negative damage (figure that one out for me) they would be killing faster. If the disc tanks, the rogue can be behind the mob using his high dmg flanking skills which means the rogue is doing far more dps than solo and also contributing more to the duo. With the disc tanking and rogue being able to rupture and backstab without needing to stun they will be killing things ridiculously fast after this last patch. If they can kill 1.8 things in the time it would take the disc to kill 1, they will be getting more xp (assuming 5% bonus per member for a duo...I don't remember the actual numbers). No, discs don't have things like taunts, but they have good dps output and heals which is more than enough to hold aggro as long as the rogue doesn't go nuts on his dps output and uses his aggro management skills.

EDIT: Just thought I'd point out that a rogue should be outdmging a disc, especially while behind the mob, which would mean they would be killing at least twice as fast as the disc alone. Basically guarantees the duo would get faster xp. Simple math.

And, I never said you can't solo. You are trying to solo 3-dots, which are supposed to be for duos or better. Just because some classes can do it, doesn't mean that's the intent. Go solo 2-dots if you have to solo. But don't come on here whining that a healer can solo 3-dots and you can't. Especially after playing all 4 healer classes, while they can take down 3-4 dots, it's slow and boring, especially on 4-dots. Also, FD is a joke for disciples and barely ever works when needed. If you want to complain about their survivability leave that skill out of the conversation.

Before this patch rogues had trouble with 2-dots, and now even they can solo 3-dots if they are geared well and know how to play their class (go to the safehouse, people have been reporting their successes after the patch and a few people have said they'd taken down 3-dots). Don't complain that you can't take 3-dots, and go solo 2-dots as you're supposed to. The bottom line is that while healers can take 3-4 dots solo, it's slower than grouping or grinding 2-dots at a faster pace and the only thing it's good for is pissing off the likes of you. Yes, they can finish some quests that you can't without a group, but they can't sneak all the way to the end of a dungeon with sorc/psion/ranger support to take out a boss without crawling through it.

You seem to have some unexplained hostility towards me. or possibly the entire Rogue class, which I'm not going to attempt to understand, or respond to.

However, you keep bringing "groups" into this discussion, which is a completely separate topic. There is no way you will ever convince me that a level 14 Disciple should be able to solo two level 15 3-dot mobs within 30 seconds, while a level 17 Rogue can barely handle one, and only if he gets enough criticals to do so.

You can throw all the insults you want at me, but I do know how to play my class, and I do have the best armor/weapons I can for my level.

If you're going to continue in this discussion, please stay on-topic.

[Rowain deWolf]

Originally Posted by Kexin

This would make no sense since the discp could easily plow through 3 dots mob solo and get faster xp while keeping all the loot. When he pulls more than one mob he can FD.

While I don't play a rogue it seems this class need more help. The have zero ultility and whatever dps they provide doesn't set them apart. Most groups will invite a ranger and never notice the difference.

Sorry but thats a blantant lie. A Disc can kill those 3 dots (the same as a Pally can) but he for sure does not plow through them nor does he rake in more XP/time than you. You may not be able to kill 3 dots but fior sure you make faster XP by killing 2 dots a lot faster than a Disciple (at least thats what I suppose a rogue to do).

[Rowain deWolf]

Originally Posted by posterboy

There is no way you will ever convince me that a level 14 Disciple should be able to solo two level 15 3-dot mobs within 30 seconds, while a level 17 Rogue can barely handle one, and only if he gets enough criticals to do so.

Sorry a lvl 14 Disciple can't kill one lvl 15 3-dot in 30 secs not talking about 2. He can kill 2 (if they are not stunners) but only during a long time.

[Neoptolemus]

Rogues are supposed to be difficult to play because they're designed for a group environment. Solo a disciple may well be massively superior to rogues, but this game was always meant to focus on group activities, whether it be duoing, grouping or raiding. I believe the devs even claimed they were aiming for about 20% solo content (correct me if I'm wrong) with the rest going into crafting, diplomacy and grouping.

This means that the classes are not balanced for solo. If they were, the rogue would be given abilities that enable them to retain stealth in 1v1, or given better unstealthed dps. Disciples and clerics may be ridiculously good at soloing mobs, but once they hit the high levels and start relying on groups to complete quests that will count for nothing. You on the other hand, will find it tougher to start with but you will then be awesome once the group quests become more and more important to your levelling.

My advice? Persevere and don't be dishearted if that disciple can solo 3-dot mobs with ease, it won't count for anything in groups.

[Owle]

Originally Posted by posterboy

You seem to have some unexplained hostility towards me. or possibly the entire Rogue class, which I'm not going to attempt to understand, or respond to.

However, you keep bringing "groups" into this discussion, which is a completely separate topic. There is no way you will ever convince me that a level 14 Disciple should be able to solo two level 15 3-dot mobs within 30 seconds, while a level 17 Rogue can barely handle one, and only if he gets enough criticals to do so.

You can throw all the insults you want at me, but I do know how to play my class, and I do have the best armor/weapons I can for my level.

If you're going to continue in this discussion, please stay on-topic.

I don't think he has any hostility toward you , I think he is more annoyed like most people that came to this game because it was a difficult group centric game , and there is constant whining about how "I can't solo this and this" when there is no reason to believe you should be able to, knowing what this game was about before even playing it .

What makes it worse is that it's a rogue complaining , probably the least soloable class in the game, considering thier damage comes from behind.

So if you really want to have a solo class, you have to choose one , don't expect that most classes will be good soloers tho , because aside from the obvious classes , most classes won't be able to solo well , and if they can now I'd suspect Sigil will fix that until, that is afterall what was originally intended

[Viktorr Deathdealer]

Not sure what exactly you're trying to solo, but between levels 12 - 15 I was soloing the named spider (Spinthra I think) in the spider caves near Veskal's, which is a 3-dot L14 (I believe) spider. Now...there are other 3-dot mobs at the time of same level that I couldn't solo, but that's just the way it goes. 2-dot mobs are not bad at all, and I can usually handle 2 of em at a time (one level higher) with a little bit of health left to spare. It's more than just mashing a couple buttons to play the rogue class. You need to have a little more care with what targets you're going for to maximize your chances of success. My rogue is only adequately equipped (mostly blue, with yellow weaps) and it's been good enough so far.

From my experience so far playing a rogue, we are definitely more a group oriented class since it is in that situation where our abilities to dish out damage shine. While I am mainly a solo-type of player, when playing my rogue I always have more fun in a group. It appears that the way the class has been designed, we are relegated to being used in groups to be effective.

Don't despair yet though. I don't believe Sigil is yet finished with revamping the class, and I believe will have a few more upgrades to send our way soon.

[Fingis]

Originally Posted by Demonix

Get a group. Problem solved.

Clerics have that big HoT. It used to heal 200 points a tick. That means if you wanted to hurt the cleric, you'd have to at least do 201 points a tick.

But Cleric dps isn't so hot. So a rogue and cleric dual would be pretty effective.

[Aegorian]

The problem i have with the presentation of this thread is that you chose to compare yourself to another class when it has been clearly stated over and over again that classes WILL NOT be equal. Some will be more efficient at solo play while some will be more efficient in groups. Asking to give rogues a heal (which the thought of makes me want to punch myself in the crotch... and yes... i'm a rogue) is rediculous. We are a DPS/support cast, plain and simple. Nowhere in our description does it say minor healer. That, and our revamp is not complete yet. Wait till you get poisons and you will be grinding that mob down even faster. So not only are you comparing completely different classes, which is wrong... you are comparing a semi-complete class vs a not so complete class.

I'm sorry you dont like that others can more efficiently do what you cannot, but that is how this game was designed. Classes will be balanced to function within the bounds of PvE and not based on bounds of other classes.

[posterboy]

Originally Posted by Rowain deWolf

Sorry a lvl 14 Disciple can't kill one lvl 15 3-dot in 30 secs not talking about 2. He can kill 2 (if they are not stunners) but only during a long time.

Look, I *watched* him do it, okay? I was standing stealthed right next to him the whole time. It was two "True Ulvari Priests" or whatever they're called out in the Blighted Lands.

If y'all choose not to believe me that's fine. But it happened. I wanted to bring it to the developers attention, but I wasn't sure where to post it. If there's a better forum for my post, please tell me where. After all, it's not a petition, and not really a bug. Just an observation.

[Aegorian]

Originally Posted by posterboy

Look, I *watched* him do it, okay? I was standing stealthed right next to him the whole time. It was two "True Ulvari Priests" or whatever they're called out in the Blighted Lands.

If y'all choose not to believe me that's fine. But it happened. I wanted to bring it to the developers attention, but I wasn't sure where to post it. If there's a better forum for my post, please tell me where. After all, it's not a petition, and not really a bug. Just an observation.

it's a moot argument given:

A) what i stated above

B) you have no idea what he has in terms of gear. He could be LIGHT YEARS beyond what you have.

You choose to compare the class as if that makes/breaks the ability to fight. It doesnt. There are tons of other factors that you are not taking into account.

[Vioche]

Originally Posted by posterboy

Look, I *watched* him do it, okay? I was standing stealthed right next to him the whole time. It was two "True Ulvari Priests" or whatever they're called out in the Blighted Lands.

If y'all choose not to believe me that's fine. But it happened. I wanted to bring it to the developers attention, but I wasn't sure where to post it. If there's a better forum for my post, please tell me where. After all, it's not a petition, and not really a bug. Just an observation.

i bet you use white gear or something, i took them down 1 at the time today at lvl 14 with about 20-30% hp left or 50% if i got some nice crits..

and no i dont have a higher level character that i have twinked this rogue with.. but i have twinked some other characters with money from my rogue..

[Demonix]

Originally Posted by posterboy

You seem to have some unexplained hostility towards me. or possibly the entire Rogue class, which I'm not going to attempt to understand, or respond to.

Actually I'm playing a rogue since they finally got buffed up from the "useless" level. However, I also understand that a rogue is supposed to do it from behind (yeah...that'll get a snicker out of you I'm sure) and that you can't do anywhere near your full potential while soloing. This is why rogues are poor soloers but great in groups. You can't have everything (unless you're a cleric).

However, you keep bringing "groups" into this discussion, which is a completely separate topic. There is no way you will ever convince me that a level 14 Disciple should be able to solo two level 15 3-dot mobs within 30 seconds, while a level 17 Rogue can barely handle one, and only if he gets enough criticals to do so.

See other people's responses. Classes are not equal in this game and never will be. If a rogue was buffed to make them better soloers they would be off the charts in groups. Since they design the game with groups in mind, this will never happen.

You can throw all the insults you want at me, but I do know how to play my class, and I do have the best armor/weapons I can for my level.

I don't recall throwing around insults, but then again I was drunk.

If you're going to continue in this discussion, please stay on-topic.
I was on topic whether you want to admit it or not. You seem to think that soloing and grouping are entirely independent but you can't change one without changing the other.

Originally Posted by Owle

I don't think he has any hostility toward you , I think he is more annoyed like most people that came to this game because it was a difficult group centric game , and there is constant whining about how "I can't solo this and this" when there is no reason to believe you should be able to, knowing what this game was about before even playing it

What makes it worse is that it's a rogue complaining , probably the least soloable class in the game, considering thier damage comes from behind.

So if you really want to have a solo class, you have to choose one , don't expect that most classes will be good soloers tho , because aside from the obvious classes , most classes won't be able to solo well , and if they can now I'd suspect Sigil will fix that until, that is afterall what was originally intended
Exactly. Thank you.

Yup.

[garath]

If the dsc cleaned up two 3 dot mobs a level higher than him in 30 seconds or less, he either got lucky with some epic crits or you are mistaken.

It takes me an average of 2 minutes to kill a 3 dot my level or higher after the crit changes and that's with Clarity (a level 18 ability that gives us a guranteed crit).

Perhaps the mobs were casters with very low hp. I find casters pretty easy if they don't have enough burst damage to one shot me.

However, the whole point of your thread is flawed. This is a group-centric game. Some classes are going to solo better than others. That's the way it is and the way it should be. If you are unhappy with your ability to solo, roll a more solo friendly class or go group and enjoy your role as a melee DPS (especially after some of the recent rogue changes).

edit: and for the record, I will always consent to duo with a damage dealing class. Soloing is slow and boring and duoing is twice as effective.

[posterboy]

Originally Posted by garath

This is a group-centric game. Some classes are going to solo better than others.

I've seen these exact two thoughts repeated throughout this thread. Two *completely* opposing thoughts.

So, because I'm a weak Rogue, the game is "group-centric", and I'm playing it all wrong and should team up with others.

But because the DSC can solo, I should go roll a DSC, because some classes are better at soloing.

Huh?!

But for the record, yes he *was* fighting caster classes at the time. Casters who would nuke me down to about 1/4 HP with one spell. The DSC got nuked too. The difference is that he could mitigate it via healing. I've got nothing to counter that kind of burst damage. Not a potion, not a scroll, nothing.

As a Rogue, I do expect to be squishy to some degree. Afterall, I'm not a warrior with plate armor. But at least in other games (such as WoW), there is the concept of an "emergency" option that can at least save my butt if things get really bad. For example, a small healing potion with a 2-minute cooldown. Or interruptable bandages.

If my class is smart enough to make/use Poisons (which btw, I don't even get until 4 levels from now), then isn't he smart enough to make a few simple healing potions for emergencies? I don't think I'm asking for much here.

[Gryph]

First off, let me say that this wil not be or ever will be like WoW, so don't expect classes to function like or have the same abilities/playability of WoW.

I have played rogues in both and I much prefer the rogue in Vanguard even at it's current partially complete state. Soloing, I expect to die more than classes, but in a group, whether duo or more, we can plow through mobs with with very few deaths.

Once we get more upgrades we will be able to solo a little better but not near the level of some other classes. This is as it's intended by the devs. Classes will NEVER be balanced. So don't go asking for it.