[Suntsu]

Ask not who the Nerf bat swings…it swings for you…

But why…?

After Ten years of a relatively mature MMO market have the DEV learned nothing…?

There is a better way to balance then nerfing a class yet this is always the knee-jerk reaction we get..

Time and again I see nerfs come out to steer player behavior and everytime I just have to shake my head. Why make such complicated changes and do so in such an abrasive fashion when a very small and subtle tweak can be much more effective.

Lets look at some examples.

PlayerX can solo 4dot yellow mobs and is getting great exp and loot.

DevX wants to stop this behavior so he decides to nerf spellX and abilityY so that PlayerX can no longer solo these mobs.

This works…but it creates a ripple effect throughout the game that is immeasurable and unpredictable. Often times these nerfs that are made with best of intentions actually create several other problems that are much more damaging and game compromising.

An example here may be that PlayerX lost some CC ability or perhaps some DPS or mitigation so now they cannot perform their primary role when they quit ‘exploiting’ and return to group.

Instead of doing this why not do what I do in management and apply this simple philosophy…

‘Make the right way the easy way and everyone will do it.’

People do not seek to make their lives miserable, they seek to make them more satisfying.

So based on the solo’n a 4dot example above, why not instead of nerfing the player that is able to do it, nerf the mob exp and Loot so it is STUPID to do it and an utter waste of time?

Every mob has a loot trigger. If you need a quest item from a mob, when you get your 20th and complete the quest you no longer get more of them. So simply attach exp and loot to this trigger. You can even create a single kill exp soft cap so no matter what you kill you get ‘X’ exp or less.

If MobX is being killed by a single player then that player gets ‘Y’ exp and a reduced chance at any meaningful loot or no loot at all. If 2 players or a full group kill MobX then the regular chances for loot and exp come into effect. Or it could go further and you could make it based on group number…3 players get something different than 6 for example but all is decided when that trigger pops.

If this was done then nobody in their right mind would ever kill anything ‘group’ as a solo unless it was for fun. And isn’t the game about having fun? So let them do it if they want. They will get no relevant exp and not loot.

In all the years I have been playing games I have yet to see a rash of complaints for a DEV tweaking mobs. In most cases Mobs get tweaked without us even noticing.

On the other hand, if a Player is tweaked/nerfed/fixed or anyway otherwise adjusted it becomes a huge ‘Chicken Little’ fiasco and the boards lite up with whining.

Please before you make changes look for subtle solutions.

It does not matter if a Healer can solo a 4 dot named 2 levels higher if they don’t get the loot and get paltry exp. But if you nerf their defense so this is not possible you make them weaker in group play as they cannot stand up to healer agro.

It does not matter if a Necro can fear kite a 5 dot. Who cares, pull up a chair and enjoy the show…that is all it would be is a show after all since he would get max exp for a solo kill. But don’t nerf the Fear or he is no longer able to fear adds and do his primary job.

If Mele is too high in some areas then increase Mob mitigation. This will only effect Mele classes and not Casters and you problem is solved.

Don’t nerf the player…tweak the mobs. Think outside the box.

[Lizard]

That's not even wrong.

[DocSavag]

So basically if something is broken you should just make it so people don't notice it?

So if Player X can solo Mob A but can't get the loot then he needs me along to watch him kill Mob A so he can get the loot. That doesn't sound like a healthy group dynamic to me. It sounds like a good way to screw up grouping.

[Suntsu]

Originally Posted by DocSavag

So basically if something is broken you should just make it so people don't notice it?

So if Player X can solo Mob A but can't get the loot then he needs me along to watch him kill Mob A so he can get the loot. That doesn't sound like a healthy group dynamic to me. It sounds like a good way to screw up grouping.

No...

It means WHO CARES if PlayerX can solo MobA.

It does not matter.

What matters is whether YOUR toon is fun and you FEEL it is effective.

Not whether he can kill something huge or not.

Too much emphisis is placed on who can solo what and since they can lets nerf them. By nerfing great solo accomplishment awards you take the envy from the accomplishment since there is no gain other than brag rights and the class can keep its skills so when you group with them you can have a worthy group mate.

The alternative is a series of nerf wars that leaves us all impotent and frustrated.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by Suntsu

No...

It means WHO CARES if PlayerX can solo MobA.
.

Anyone who understands the nature of game design, especially MMORPG design.

[Suntsu]

Originally Posted by Lizard

Anyone who understands the nature of game design, especially MMORPG design.

Enlighten me Lizard.

Tell me why it matters to you if I can kill a 4dot solo and I am not getting any better loot or exp than you in fact I am getting worse?

[Ladon]

No actually nerfing is the answer. If you continue to bring classes up in balance then the players become too strong. The result will be another Everquest with 1000+ damage, .25 second delay quad hitting mobs.

[Suntsu]

Originally Posted by Ladon

No actually nerfing is the answer. If you continue to bring classes up in balance then the players become too strong. The result will be another Everquest with 1000+ damage, .25 second delay quad hitting mobs.

Noone said anything about bringing anyone up to balance. Simply that balance is not what it appears and is not as important as stated.

Nerfing the loot and exp can accomplish the same thing as nerfing the ability.

Not sure what you are reading...?

[Ladon]

Originally Posted by Suntsu

Noone said anything about bringing anyone up to balance. Simply that balance is not what it appears and is not as important as stated.

Nerfing the loot and exp can accomplish the same thing as nerfing the ability.

Not sure what you are reading...?

So you want to punish full groups killing those mobs as well then? Should we also nerf 3 dot and 2 dot mobs as well since it's likely this class that can kill a 4 dot is able to kill 3 and 2 dot mobs far more efficiently than other classes?

[elikal]

Nerfing is taking the easiest and fastest way, but also the worst. It destroys a lot of trust and faith and the long term results are bad for the game. There is always an inch of trust corroded until its gone.

There are many smarter ways, but they lack the patience and will like most game companys. In the end, the player pays the price for the developers neglectance.

[Suntsu]

Originally Posted by Ladon

So you want to punish full groups killing those mobs as well then? Should we also nerf 3 dot and 2 dot mobs as well since it's likely this class that can kill a 4 dot is able to kill 3 and 2 dot mobs far more efficiently than other classes?

After you ACTUALLY READ my post...then comment...then I will reply.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by Suntsu

Enlighten me Lizard.

Tell me why it matters to you if I can kill a 4dot solo and I am not getting any better loot or exp than you in fact I am getting worse?

It won't do much good. "Never bother trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

But let's see if you're educable...

In addition to the issues already mentioned...

a)Your proposal is buggy, hard to balance, difficult to implement, and will lead to all sorts of bizaare party dynamics.

b)The entire point of the dot-system is to class monsters as soloable or not. If one class can reliably solo same-level 3 and 4 dot creatures, the class is broken -- not the dot system. Your proposal makes the dot system meaningless (and infinitely more confusing)

c)The ability to trivially pass content which would normally require a group means some classes will have access to regions solo which other classes must group to reach. If you don't see game balance and fairness issues with this, you are beyond hope.

d)Regardless of the facts of loot (if anyone could understand your convoluted and baroque solution to 'fixing' the problem), if there is a perception one class is substantially better than another, more people will choose to play it, hampering the community and reducing diversity.

e)Occam's Razor. (Look it up). Programmer time is expensive; so is testing time. It is a much more efficient use of resources to simply tone down overpowered abilities than to implement an incomphrensibly complex, unbalanced, and easily exploited system such as you propose.

f)While the cries and screams of PVPers are music to my ears, I am not utterly without compassion for them. Your solution does nothing to solve the effect an overpowered class will have on PVP. Having different sets of abilities for PvE and PvP is unnecessarly overcomplicated; see 'e'.

g)It punishes those who, through exceptional skill and luck, *do* manage to solo group content at or over their level. If the game is balanced properly, this should be a rare thing and should be suitably rewarded; your proposal unfairly penalizes skilled players who have truly mastered their class.

There. Now, let us see if I've wasted my time trying.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by elikal

Nerfing is taking the easiest and fastest way, but also the worst. It destroys a lot of trust and faith and the long term results are bad for the game. There is always an inch of trust corroded until its gone.

I trust the developers to do what is required to balance the game. I would feel far more betrayed if they ignored game balance in favor of "not upsetting the players".

It is far simpler to tone down one overpowered ability than to power up everything else, and an unbalanced game is a game which is heading for collapse and cancellation.

[Ladon]

Originally Posted by Suntsu

After you ACTUALLY READ my post...then comment...then I will reply.

Like I said, if a class has the power to solo a 4 dot then they likely have the power to also kill a 3 dot and 2 dot at a much greater rate with less risk than other classes. The core problem is the class is overpowered and is using abilities in methods not originally envisioned by the developer.

It's stupid for developers to dance around the core issue just to shut up a few whiners because their favorite toy was just taken away.

It is far simpler to tone down one overpowered ability than to power up everything else, and an unbalanced game is a game which is heading for collapse and cancellation.

Not only simply, but correct. As I said, try to balance mobs around overpowered player abilities as the OP suggests results in the situation late Everquest saw with mob damage. Complete Heal completely broke balance in that game yet rather than just remove it, they attempted to balance the entire game around it. They've learned from that harsh mistake.

You're talking about reworking the entire 'dot con' system just to suit a few overpower abilities. There is no logic in this.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by Ladon

Not only simply, but correct. As I said, try to balance mobs around overpowered player abilities as the OP suggests results in the situation late Everquest saw with mob damage. Complete Heal completely broke balance in that game yet rather than just remove it, they attempted to balance the entire game around it. They've learned from that harsh mistake.

Or Feign Death. FD was supposed to be a 'save my ass!' power, but it became the core of pulling...so every major encounter was redesigned to deal with FD pulling and mobs were overpowered so a single mob would be a challenge for a group no matter what it conned....

(My fix? Make it so that sometimes the mob ignored you when you FD, and other times, it figured you were an easy snack and did a quadruple-damage attack on you while you lay there pretending to be dead....that way, people would only use it when they were about to be not-feigning death.)

[Suntsu]

[quote=Lizard;155055]It won't do much good. "Never bother trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."Very true...but since I am a nice guy and very patient...I will attempt to teach you anyways.

But let's see if you're educable...

In addition to the issues already mentioned...

a)Your proposal is buggy, hard to balance, difficult to implement, and will lead to all sorts of bizaare party dynamics.The proposal is intentionally vague as specific examples of what specific classes can do with specific mobs leads to uncivil posts and class wars. These then turn to nerfs which is the very thing I am trying to avoid.

b)The entire point of the dot-system is to class monsters as soloable or not. If one class can reliably solo same-level 3 and 4 dot creatures, the class is broken -- not the dot system. Your proposal makes the dot system meaningless (and infinitely more confusing)My proposal changes nothing about the dot system. It can remain exactly as it is now. The only difference will be the amount of EXP and chance of loot drop will change if you are killing 4 or 5 dot as a solo person. ANd the dot system is a challenge rating, not a who can I solo...If it were a who can I solo there would be 2 dots. One dot is yes and two dots is no.

c)The ability to trivially pass content which would normally require a group means some classes will have access to regions solo which other classes must group to reach. If you don't see game balance and fairness issues with this, you are beyond hope.YOu mean like Invis? Or levitate? Or Rakkur speed? Or Bard speed? YEs you can see it but to reap the rewards you must kill and kill solo as solo and group as group...as intended and how my proposal makes things work. RIGHT NOW under current system this is happening. Under todays changes it will still happen. With my proposal there will be no reason to go there other than to look around like someone with invis.

d)Regardless of the facts of loot (if anyone could understand your convoluted and baroque solution to 'fixing' the problem), if there is a perception one class is substantially better than another, more people will choose to play it, hampering the community and reducing diversity.People will play what they deem fun. A few kids will surf the boards looking for the most overpowered class and play it because they think it is Uber but the masses will play what appeals to them. Balance is not what you can kill. It is whether you are having fun and effective in your role. What you are eluding to and what nerfs to bring us equal do is to stifle diversity and make us all the same. What I propose is to throw out the concept of balanced means we all kill the same and introduce the concept of loot is equal no matter what, exp is equal no matter what...so play what you enjoy. If that means a necro who can kite a five dot then do it. If it means a Cleric that will take an hour to kill a 2 dot then do it. WHO CARES?

[Suntsu]

e)Occam's Razor. (Look it up). Programmer time is expensive; so is testing time. It is a much more efficient use of resources to simply tone down overpowered abilities than to implement an incomphrensibly complex, unbalanced, and easily exploited system such as you propose.Both are equally as complex. In fact the current nerf hear and there nickel and dime method is much more difficult than a blanket loot/exp policy that is tweaked by changing mobs. You are saying that managing the variables of 15 classes and 18 races each with roughly 100 skills all of which need to go into the balanceometer is easier than changing a trigger on a loot subroutine for all mobs. Then lets not forget we need to take all those variables and loot at how they are effected in group, small group, solo and raid scenarios. Sure...that is very simple...lol. It is assenine. History has proven that the current path is one that leads nowhere. Every MMO to date has followed it and every one has failed at achieving balance. My path is different. Maybe it will work maybe it wont but nerfs never work.

f)While the cries and screams of PVPers are music to my ears, I am not utterly without compassion for them. Your solution does nothing to solve the effect an overpowered class will have on PVP. Having different sets of abilities for PvE and PvP is unnecessarly overcomplicated; see 'e'.I only PVE. I don not care what they do with PVP as long as it has no effect on PVE. There needs to be a clear line between the two. This is a PVE only solution.

g)It punishes those who, through exceptional skill and luck, *do* manage to solo group content at or over their level. If the game is balanced properly, this should be a rare thing and should be suitably rewarded; your proposal unfairly penalizes skilled players who have truly mastered their class.I fully agree with you. I would rather we do nothing and not even make this change. But as long as the system is the way it is Sigil will continue to attempt to 'balance' the classes abilities in order to curb it. So loosing the loot and exp is a better solution than screwing up the abilities.

There. Now, let us see if I've wasted my time trying.[/quote]

[DocSavag]

Originally Posted by Suntsu

No...

It means WHO CARES if PlayerX can solo MobA.

It does not matter.

What matters is whether YOUR toon is fun and you FEEL it is effective.

Not whether he can kill something huge or not.

Too much emphisis is placed on who can solo what and since they can lets nerf them. By nerfing great solo accomplishment awards you take the envy from the accomplishment since there is no gain other than brag rights and the class can keep its skills so when you group with them you can have a worthy group mate.

The alternative is a series of nerf wars that leaves us all impotent and frustrated.

I already told you why it matters. Your solution essentially has me as a third wheel in the group only so that the guy who can solo the content can get full loot. Why does he need me there? It makes a joke of the grouping process if the majority of the group is useless.

[Lizard]

[quote=Suntsu;155493]

Originally Posted by Lizard

It won't do much good. "Never bother trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."Very true...but since I am a nice guy and very patient...I will attempt to teach you anyways.

But let's see if you're educable...

Evidently not.

What I propose is to throw out the concept of balanced means we all kill the same and introduce the concept of loot is equal no matter what, exp is equal no matter what...so play what you enjoy. If that means a necro who can kite a five dot then do it. If it means a Cleric that will take an hour to kill a 2 dot then do it. WHO CARES?

Nothing you posted addresses the flaws with your proposal or my criticisms of it; you merely reiterate refuted points. The idea that "you should just get the same loot and XP from a 4 dot that you do from a 2 dot, that's fair" is so self-evidently bogus that, as I noted in my first reply:"It's not even wrong." You understand neither game design nor player psychology (and how the latter drives the former). You have no factual basis for your assertions and they are countered by the entire history of both P&P and online RPGs to date.

Someone else try. I give up.

[Suntsu]

Originally Posted by Ladon

Like I said, if a class has the power to solo a 4 dot then they likely have the power to also kill a 3 dot and 2 dot at a much greater rate with less risk than other classes. The core problem is the class is overpowered and is using abilities in methods not originally envisioned by the developer. This is true. There is no way any amount of nerfing or any futile attempts at creating or preserving balance will ever change this. DPS classes will kill faster than tanks and healers. This is not a complaint...it is just fact. It is silly for the DEV to try to change it as changing it guts any diversity from the game. This exists now and will exist after my proposal is implemented. The only thing my proposal effects is the soloing of 4 and 5 dot mobs. This also seems to be what Sigil is trying to curb by there nerfs.

It's stupid for developers to dance around the core issue just to shut up a few whiners because their favorite toy was just taken away.I agree. but it is quieter when they do this in stealth fashion.



Not only simply, but correct. As I said, try to balance mobs around overpowered player abilities as the OP suggests results in the situation late Everquest saw with mob damage. Complete Heal completely broke balance in that game yet rather than just remove it, they attempted to balance the entire game around it. They've learned from that harsh mistake.

You're talking about reworking the entire 'dot con' system just to suit a few overpower abilities. There is no logic in this.

Well I will not agree or disagree with the CH EQ1 statement, I have no opinion of it. I will grant this point however, if an ability is noticably overpowered, it needs to be nerfed. No question. If Druid could Nuke for 10K every 30 seconds there would be an issue and they would have to fix it. But if a Druid can solo a 4 dot it does not mean the game is broken. It means the druid can solo well. Nerf the reward instead of his abilities and he can still solo well and will have the same EXP curve and loot curve as the rest of the player base. Nerf his root and he will re-roll a Necro so he can still kill it by fear kiting. Nerf the necros fear and he will roll a Cleric so he can still kill albiet very very slowly, nerf the Clerics Mitigation and inturuption and he is no longer a good healer so now we have a crappy Druid and a Crappy Necro and a crappy Cleric...who shall we nerf next? Why dont we just nerf the exp and loot on the mob and then who the hell cares who can kill it?