[Niteflyx]

Originally Posted by Mortezzah

You wrote:
Stunning Bellow is a stun. We are avoiding long stuns. Back in beta you could chain Shield Bash to keep a mob stunned for 10 seconds at a time. Fear/mez is not in a warrior's spectrum.

Gotcha. We are avoiding long stuns. Why is there a longer DK stun? Why are we are not avoiding fear, repeatable fear, aoe fear, snare, etc on other tank classes? Doesn't seem balanced relative to other tank classes.

DK's don't have a stun; ours requires it to be out of combat and positioned behidn the enemy. We have an in-combat shield bash when we block that does some damage and stuns, but breaks in a few hits-- useless in a group.

[Ravin-Xeru]

Originally Posted by Venge

I am still trying to find the logic behind your posts. To me, it seems you want to be able to do it all. I'm afraid such a trait will never be accomplished by a warrior. There is alot more than to say "Let the warriors solo 3 dots". If we were to be able to solo 3 dots level 40+, some of the following must happen.

- Increase the warriors dps to match that of a ranger.
- Lower the hit points of the mob to that of a 2 dot con.
- Activate an ability of healing potentials for the warrior.

I can tell you that, none of the 3 will happen.

I actually have an idea for a new ability. I know we're not adding new abilities in yet, until other things are fixed. But here goes...

Basically it works as a stun/mez/snare break. You click this ability on and it breaks whatever movement impairing abilities might be on you at the time and makes you invulnerable to any additional abilities of those type for say 8 seconds. It would also have a 30 second or 60 second reset cool down.

I'm sure something like this has been mentioned before. I think it would be a good idea for a warrior though. It would help us against all the other classes that are able to 'virtually' stun us for an infinite amount of time by reapplying the affects after they've worn off. It would also help out a lot in PVE since a lot of the creatures use movement impending abilities, and they only get worse as you get into higher levels. It's a small ability that would do wonders for the warrior. My only question is though, is this something that would be more appropriate to the Berzerker class once it comes out?

[Cobalty2004]

Originally Posted by Ravin-Xeru

I actually have an idea for a new ability. I know we're not adding new abilities in yet, until other things are fixed. But here goes...

Basically it works as a stun/mez/snare break. You click this ability on and it breaks whatever movement impairing abilities might be on you at the time and makes you invulnerable to any additional abilities of those type for say 8 seconds. It would also have a 30 second or 60 second reset cool down.

I'm sure something like this has been mentioned before. I think it would be a good idea for a warrior though. It would help us against all the other classes that are able to 'virtually' stun us for an infinite amount of time by reapplying the affects after they've worn off. It would also help out a lot in PVE since a lot of the creatures use movement impending abilities, and they only get worse as you get into higher levels. It's a small ability that would do wonders for the warrior. My only question is though, is this something that would be more appropriate to the Berzerker class once it comes out?

Seems to fit a warrior.

We already get Ironfoe at level 46 however.

[Ravin-Xeru]

Originally Posted by Cobalty2004

Seems to fit a warrior.

We already get Ironfoe at level 46 however.

Oh... not that high in level. Heh... what's that particular ability do..?

[Cobalty2004]

Originally Posted by Ravin-Xeru

Oh... not that high in level. Heh... what's that particular ability do..?

Makes you immune to stuns and knockbacks. I havent gotten it either, so I do not know the refresh, but I think its 30 second duration.

[Ravin-Xeru]

Originally Posted by Cobalty2004

Makes you immune to stuns and knockbacks. I havent gotten it either, so I do not know the refresh, but I think its 30 second duration.

Yeah it's 30 seconds. (just looked it up) Actually that's a pretty nice ability. Here's another suggestion then.

Is it possible that we could get it at an earlier level..? Say... 16 or 18 maybe... Possibly a little bit higher. It could also be ranked like other abilities.

Level 18: Learn Ironfoe: You become as tough as iron, gaining immunity to stuns and knock-backs for 8 seconds.

Level 26: Learn Ironfoe Rank II: You become as tough as iron, gaining immunity to stuns and knock-backs for 16 seconds.

Level 34: Learn Ironfoe Rank III: You become as tough as iron, gaining immunity to stuns and knock-backs for 24 seconds.

Level 46: Learn Ironfoe Rank IV: You become as tough as iron, gaining
immunity to stuns and knock-backs for 30 seconds.

Also question, does it break whatever current ones you have on you?

It would make it available at a much earlier level (be very helpful in PVP and PVE), but wouldn't be as powerful. You'd then have to be more strategic with it, saving it for a more opportune time maybe. Would this be possible Venge..?

[Silverbeard]

An idea to boost warrior solo ability while not affecting group dynamics:

The Adamant Foeman line.
Either change this or make a new ability that does the following

10 END 2sec global cooldown.
Increases chance to block by 50%-70% but removes all hate for 10sec. (or a high amount) and allow auto attack to remain on.

This would allow the soloing warrior to use it often to reduce incoming damage by 3dot mobs without increasing our DPS. We could survive longer, enough to kill a 3dot without healing. It would not be useful in groups as removing all hate would cause the mob to attack someone else. It would make us feel much tougher solo and give us the ability to kill 3 dots in long drawn out fights using defensive stance. Making soloing 2 dots more efficient due to speed of kills but allowing us to kill the 3dots if it were required.

Comments are welcome.
Silverbeard Dwarven Warrior of Gulgrethor

[Perceval]

Originally Posted by Mortezzah

Sorry, I must not be communicating well if you are interprettiing "I want us to be balanced relative to other classes" with "I want to do it all" or "I want our DPS to be that of a ranger.". I do appreciate your efforts here, so bear with me I'm glad this isn't diving into a flame war, as that's useless.

There are a plethora of ways we could solo 3 dots, that wouldn't have to touch group dynamics....

Excellent post, saved me the trouble.

[Tomatochips]

I am strongly requesting you will give warrior a tool that help pulling,maybe a battleshout which can lull our target? I am hating to see my Pally groupmate is taken all my job and even better,Tanker is he,Puller is he,what my job in this group is DPSer! yes wtf I am a DPSer!(sure I am offtank too) they have lull spell,can help pulling a lot,I like pulling,but I know I may pull a train,so when in my fix group the puller is Pally,yes,Pally are spell caster so they should can,but I think you still can found a way to give warrior a lull type skill that reasonable,please consider about it



Sorry for my pool english

[Ravin-Xeru]

Originally Posted by Tomatochips

I am strongly requesting you will give warrior a tool that help pulling,maybe a battleshout which can lull our target? I am hating to see my Pally groupmate is taken all my job and even better,Tanker is he,Puller is he,what my job in this group is DPSer! yes wtf I am a DPSer!(sure I am offtank too) they have lull spell,can help pulling a lot,I like pulling,but I know I may pull a train,so when in my fix group the puller is Pally,yes,Pally are spell caster so they should can,but I think you still can found a way to give warrior a lull type skill that reasonable,please consider about it



Sorry for my pool english

I feel warriors can pull pretty well actually. I use my bow of course like anyone else. But I have yet to have much of a problem with it, and definitely haven't pulled any trains...meaning, I haven't pulled anything except for what I wanted to pull. The only problems I have is when I pull too quick when soloing and/or I'm not paying attention and there was another enemy right beside the one I just pulled. That's me not paying attention though . Other than that... I think the bow works rather well. I don't think a lull skill or any derivative would fit into a Warrior's retinue of abilities either. I think the bow is perfectly good and I'm happy with it.

[Tomatochips]

Originally Posted by Ravin-Xeru

I feel warriors can pull pretty well actually. I use my bow of course like anyone else. But I have yet to have much of a problem with it, and definitely haven't pulled any trains...meaning, I haven't pulled anything except for what I wanted to pull. The only problems I have is when I pull too quick when soloing and/or I'm not paying attention and there was another enemy right beside the one I just pulled. That's me not paying attention though . Other than that... I think the bow works rather well. I don't think a lull skill or any derivative would fit into a Warrior's retinue of abilities either. I think the bow is perfectly good and I'm happy with it.

hmm.. what level are you and you mostly play at outdoor or dungeon with your group? I am a lv 38 war right now and I mostly play at dungeon,most dungon the mobs spawning point is very close and with roamer,so if pull without lull will get 4-5 or more incoming,if my pally groupmate not here,the puller will be me,and I will ask cleric help lull(my group no PSI),but I am thinking why pally can do it himself but I need wait other ppl do for me,maybe you can say Pally is overpowered

[Kona[Combine]]

I know someone brought this up at somepoint in this thread but I just wanted to say he is correct, Warriors need a SNARE. This is for PvP, Warriors are far too easy to kite. Seems every class has some kind of run buff or snare, or both, except the warrior. Our DPS isnt high enough to kill someone with a 3second stun, yet we can be snared by someone who is using a run speed enhancement. There is no chance for a warrior at this point, you are snared by an enemy that moves faster than you even if you werent snared.

Snare is needed for PvP Warriors.

[Ravin-Xeru]

Originally Posted by Tomatochips

hmm.. what level are you and you mostly play at outdoor or dungeon with your group? I am a lv 38 war right now and I mostly play at dungeon,most dungon the mobs spawning point is very close and with roamer,so if pull without lull will get 4-5 or more incoming,if my pally groupmate not here,the puller will be me,and I will ask cleric help lull(my group no PSI),but I am thinking why pally can do it himself but I need wait other ppl do for me,maybe you can say Pally is overpowered

I'm only level 18 . And no... I still don't think you are right. On the one part, I can see how it would be difficult to pull in a dungeon setting like that. So I wont argue the fact that a lull would be useful. However, I will say that I don't believe that a 'lull' would have it's place in the warrior's retinue of skills. Venge said it best in another thread; he said that it seems like there's a lot of want to have Warrior's be able to do it all. (that's bad English, but w/e It's late ~ ) I don't believe warrior's should be able to do it all. I think we can be useful and we are. There is still a lot of work that needs to be done concerning Warrior's and there skills, and Venge is working on that as we speak. It's on the way. Just takes time. And yes, sometimes there or more-times there is a need to have another class do something specific that we may not be able to do. If this is being able to pull a single mob inside of a packed dungeon, then so be it. We don't need to be able to do anything. For me, that would ruin the group aspect of the game. There needs to be times where we rely on other classes for their abilities to do certain things. That's what I believe at least.

And just to reply to Kona[Combine], yes I do believe we need a snare. Especially for PVP. As far as we all know though, Venge is working on this. He did state that the new 'replacement' would have this effect (hopefully). Going off of another post that he made, he stated that 'Leap attack' would be making a return, at least that is what I believe I read. Anyways, IF it does make a return hopefully it will have that aspect as well. Time will only tell and Venge will let us know. I have complete faith that he is working his butt off right now trying to fix the Warrior. I also believe we are in for some big surprises coming up soon concerning the Warrior. (Mostly because Venge said so, lol). Anyways, Let's all try and have some patience and I'm sure we will all be very happy with the outcomes.

[Sheffy57]

Give me my snare Raive, give it to me now! =)


Methos
Triton

[Mortezzah]

Regarding this..
Slay III Has a 70% chance to kill an opponent that is at or below 10% health.

I wrote:
Pretty equal there, with the edge to Slay since the bigger mob you get the better a % based blow is.

Venge wrote:
We had life rend that did the exact same. Just had 100%. There are mobs immune to these form of abilities. Such as raid mobs and quest mobs.

Just watched a DK do a 170,000 damage slay on a 5 dot in Arena.

I guess some quest mobs aren't tagged appropriately.

To me there needs to be a global change to all 4 and 5 dots, removing things like fear, snare, slow, etc. I can't believe that this was intended -- and adding a "no fear" flag to one mob only leaves 100,000 left. Don't do it manually.

[Tuddar]

Originally Posted by Venge

I am still trying to find the logic behind your posts. To me, it seems you want to be able to do it all. I'm afraid such a trait will never be accomplished by a warrior. There is alot more than to say "Let the warriors solo 3 dots". If we were to be able to solo 3 dots level 40+, some of the following must happen.

- Increase the warriors dps to match that of a ranger.
- Lower the hit points of the mob to that of a 2 dot con.
- Activate an ability of healing potentials for the warrior.

I can tell you that, none of the 3 will happen.

I think the logic is there, but just needs to be stated a bit clearer.

Other classes can solo effectively because they have the necessary tools to be able to do so. They can either avoid damage altogether via fears, roots and snares, or mitigate damage through heals, lifetaps, debuffs, etc etc. Or a combination of both.

That is the basis of their ability to solo.

Warriors have no such abilities, save for some minor stuns.

If the goal is for all defensive fighters to be roughly equal in group/raid tanking, then it stands to reason that solo capability for all defensive fighters should be roughly equal also. Yet that is not the case.

As far as spell casting is concerned, let us be honest. Battle cries and commands are essentially Warrior spell casting, as are some of our abilities. Our mana is our endurance and energy.

As I often say, pointing out problems is only half the work. Solutions also need to be proposed.

So possible abilities could be:

Stumble: You catch the target off balance, causing them to try to catch their footing. Target moves in a random direction. As long as your not directly in front of them, you take no damage. If the target is under a bleeding effect, the effect lasts twice as long. 5/10 seconds.

Bruise: Target is bruised, 25% of any damage it inflicts will be directed back at it. Lasts until target takes 5 hits.

The goal is to make abilities that are solo-friendly, but otherwise undesirable or degrading naturally in the presence of a group. For example, in a group Bruise wouldn't be all that hot, because in a group 5 hits may come in a second or two which the mob may only be able to get in one hit. In a solo encounter, with the warrior being the only one engaged with the mob it would benefit to it's full effect. Stumble would also be detrimental in groups, since you want mobs staying stationary and facing the tank. Moving off in a random direction and possibly facing the backstabbers isn't desirable.

You *can* come up with viable solutions to warrior soloability and that remain in-character, you just have to think of how to cause those abilities to degrade in a group environment.

[mrbandersnatch]

Heres my problem with the whole argument that warriors shouldnt be killing 2/3/4 dot mobs.

Healers do this all the time. They dont need a tank to group with to finish that "small group/group" quest line. We have to stand by and watch/hope for a sympathy bone/friend to be onlne before we can progress. In short :-

HEALERS DO NOT NEED TANKS TO PROGRESS ON CONTENT/QUESTS. HOWEVER TANKS ARE ***RELIANT*** ON HEALERS TO PROGRESS.

Sorry this is currently one FUBARED design and something needs to change.

[carmineluper]

Hey venge I have 2 things that could really help out the class alot. Additions if you may. The first one would be alot harder to make work than the second one, but I beleive both of them would help out greatly.

1.) Give us an "unfocused" stance. One similiar to the bloodmages. It adds no bonus and takes nothing away. However in this stance you are able to use ALL your skills. This would allow for alot more flavor alone. Basically warriors would probably use this stance most when soloing, it would make us a plater wearing class with a little dps rather than a slightly higher mitigationed chain wearing class with moderate dps (offensive stance). When in group as an off tank warriors would go with offensive mostly, so that they can bring additionaly dps to the group, and they arn't worried about getting hit. And of course when MT they would use mostly defensive for the extra threat however switch between this and unfocused to deal additional dps to gain the little extra threat.

I beleive with this it would actually make us more of what our description says, (the dps of tanks) since it would allow us to use partial dps while tanking, as well as not waste all of our crits due to only having 2 chains in defensive. We would technically have 4 chains and be able to out dps the other tank classes like we are supposed to.

Like I said though, this one would probably be rather hard to implement at this time.... and I wouldn't be surprised if it never happened.... but its a thought :P.

2.) Give us a shout something like "Shout of Defience" or something. A shout that would allow us to gain and additional 10% of our base hp for 20 seconds (would also heal for that 10%). Cooldown of 2 mins.

There are 2 different ways of doing this... I am not positive which would be better. 1. Give the 10% hp bonus and heal for it at the same time, making this rather risky in some situations. If you are fighting almost dead, you pop this get 10% additional hp and then the mob still almost kills you, and then you loose the hp, well then you are dead anyways lol, this would make the skill situational and somewhat risky, but give us that extra edge in combat to do what needs to be done, prime for group near death situations.

The second way would be to grant the 10% additional hp, without a heal. The heal would come after the 20seconds is up, the shout would heal you for 10% of your base hp. I know when you are reading this you are thinking well this makes no sense. But in reality it does. When you gain that 10% hp with no heal, then it allows the healer of the group, or yourself (if an orc) to heal yourself in addition to what your normal hp is. Which essentially is what you are attempting to do anyways. The heal comming at the end would ensure that you are not able to die from this, making it safer to be used. This woud be ideal for both solo and group situations. Solo would allow for a longer solo period than to kill 1 even conned mob 2 dot then rest, you may be able to kill 2:P. In group this would be wonderful for a heal in tight situations where the healer or healers are almost out of mana... pop this in, wait 20seconds get a 10% heal (which mind you sn't much, but can be as much as 2-3 hits in some areas).


BTW thanks for all the replies and help with the class, really appreciate it (even if you don't like my ideas lol)

Though Earlier this week or last week I posted abouta skill where we could trade mana for endurance.... and you said that it wasn't possible with the currently combat system. I was just wondering why that is, since it is possible to transfer end into mana?

[carmineluper]

Originally Posted by Mortezzah

Regarding this..
Slay III Has a 70% chance to kill an opponent that is at or below 10% health.

I wrote:
Pretty equal there, with the edge to Slay since the bigger mob you get the better a % based blow is.

Venge wrote:
We had life rend that did the exact same. Just had 100%. There are mobs immune to these form of abilities. Such as raid mobs and quest mobs.

Just watched a DK do a 170,000 damage slay on a 5 dot in Arena.

I guess some quest mobs aren't tagged appropriately.

To me there needs to be a global change to all 4 and 5 dots, removing things like fear, snare, slow, etc. I can't believe that this was intended -- and adding a "no fear" flag to one mob only leaves 100,000 left. Don't do it manually.

Eh I dun mind the way things are with 4-5-6 dot mobs atm, though I would like to see all 5/6 dot mobs hace some type of Call, so they cannot be kited. But oh well, it doens't have to be.

Hey venge... I noticed you said we HAD life rend, which did dthe same thing... is it getting revamped or we just not gonna get it any more?

[Niteflyx]

Originally Posted by Mortezzah

Regarding this..
Slay III Has a 70% chance to kill an opponent that is at or below 10% health.

I wrote:
Pretty equal there, with the edge to Slay since the bigger mob you get the better a % based blow is.

Venge wrote:
We had life rend that did the exact same. Just had 100%. There are mobs immune to these form of abilities. Such as raid mobs and quest mobs.

Just watched a DK do a 170,000 damage slay on a 5 dot in Arena.

I guess some quest mobs aren't tagged appropriately.

To me there needs to be a global change to all 4 and 5 dots, removing things like fear, snare, slow, etc. I can't believe that this was intended -- and adding a "no fear" flag to one mob only leaves 100,000 left. Don't do it manually.

The damage displayed by a DRK's slay finishes the mob. It can only be used under 10% damage, and the damage listed is the full hp for the mob. Again, please don't make comparisons to things you don't know about.

If you want to remove DRK's 'utility' to 4 and 5 dot mobs, then don't judge what you 'should' have based on the 'utility' on 2-3dot mobs.