[Orlun]

I'm not talking so much of quest like "Go find this or that" and have them unsolvable... I'm talking clues and hints that may not lead to a quest or a resolution. If there are such clues or hints in game, then someday there may be a continuation quest or storyline that builds off of them. It all goes back to MMOGs before the quest journal. It was up to the player to keep track of what they were after and what was required, not some log book.


In EQ, "Miragul's Highway" is exactly what I mean. Clues and hints spread throught the cities, but no quest...or is there? we never found out.

Google it if your interested.

[Elrar (of Silky Venom)]

Progressive quests would rock, and actually, the bards did get basically an upgrade to their epic through their 1.5/2.0 quests, which was very nice. However, if anyone ever read what bards had to do for their epics...well, you'd be eating your eyes right now screaming horrors with night terrors of kiting Fear forever killing amaligilyian warriors....not to mention...everything else...0_0

That said, I'd love to be able to do quests that have arching storylines over years, levels, and expansions. In WoW, I loved alot of the stories they had for the newbie quests, I got very involved, and was ready to rock and roll, and then bam, they just stopped, leaving you hanging. It was very unsatisfactory.

Now if you could continue these storylines, that eventually led you to the parties responsible for causing evil and fear within Telon, well that would rock, because eventually peoples paths would merge, and then explode outwards again as the progression of their "epic" quests changed.

Deffinately though I would love a truly gigantic ongoing quest, that involved you deeply into the lore, and was based around your own personal feelings and views of the world itself.

Of course, the logistics and planning required would be rediculous for so much multi tiered and intertwining going on. One can dream though

[Skarlath]

Originally Posted by Orlun

It all goes back to MMOGs before the quest journal. It was up to the player to keep track of what they were after and what was required, not some log book.

Ok, I think im with you a little more now.

One player might make rough notes, but another player might record everything comprehensively and be in awe when the hint of a story carries on in patches far far later.

From what I remember(and someone already mentioned this) AC1 did have many situations like this. As you all know, their story arcs were second to none. Some smaller quests might give you a piece of a story (Thorsten Cragstone - the green knight, for example) but then when the story arc spilled out its bounty much later, you would see how the story of Cragstone's final days fits into the entire history of Dereth.

People say WoWs lore is good, because of the comprehensiveness of lore from the previous Warcraft games. However I never felt too in touch with it. I never felt the awe that I felt when I heard about Cragstone's green cuirass, which could still be found deep in his dungeon tomb. Or the amazement when I participated in Martine's part of the saga.

I think games like AC1 and EQ probably were made special by hints at a past that players weren't there to witness. And so if this discussion was posed as a question from Sigil then i would definitely say YES! Give us hints to wonder at. Hints from items we might find, or a place we might visit, a quest we might complete, a book we might discover or an NPC we might talk to. Make us wonder whether there is more to the story than we know so far. Even if these are not always developed, the times they are will make the game feel the way it should.

[Loampounder]

I wonder if the unsolveable quests were great because they were a) unsolveable and b) players' desires and efforts made them more mythical that they really were. Did EQ designers ever ponder a story behind the markings on the druid rings or Neriak cauldrons? During the hunts for the answer, players usually attribute more creativity or ingenutity to designers than the designers actually showed. So, sounds like it would be BETTER if the quests were unsolveable.

As long as the designers don't TELL anyone that they are unsolveable.

[Dillgaar]

I still remember the original soulfire quest and how paladins were scrambling like mad to try to find and figure out the quest... I think that was onw of the one quests that was so incredibly hard to find out... the addition of the epics past that point kind of lessened the impact of the whole line of quests...

those were the quests I remember and still enjoy in a game

[Skarlath]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

I wonder if the unsolveable quests were great because they were a) unsolveable and b) players' desires and efforts made them more mythical that they really were. Did EQ designers ever ponder a story behind the markings on the druid rings or Neriak cauldrons? During the hunts for the answer, players usually attribute more creativity or ingenutity to designers than the designers actually showed. So, sounds like it would be BETTER if the quests were unsolveable.

As long as the designers don't TELL anyone that they are unsolveable.

Well b) really brings out what is special about MMORPGs. Things like the druid rings in EQ would have continuously had players wondering.

I can't tell you how long I spent as a newbie in AC1 running around in those damn underground rooms in every town. Those ones with the antechamber, the stone throne, the three side rooms and the mana pools that players later used for efficient macroing. I was convinced there would be a secret passageway, or something special if I visited them all.

[Sergo]

Part of the magic of Norrath were the things that made you wonder. The ruins in Kithicor... the chessboard... the cave under the ice river in Everfrost. "What the hell happened here? How can I find out? Is this the key to something really big?"

I think Orlun has a good idea. I remember a few times I thought I had an idea on a quest, but they didn't pan out. There should be enough payoff on just a few of those crazy notions to make players constant wonder, "Could it be?"

[Nath'aal]

I'm going to rephrase and expound on what I said on the OVF. Anything you can think up is fine with me, just so long as it works as intended. That said, I can imagine the devs writting part of a quest that would not have an complete ending until a later expansion, however, I canNOT imagine them writting a quest that no matter how much you work you are going to get nothing. Also, with a quest that is designed to be solved at a later expansion I think there would be some kind of hint (however vauge or obscure)that that is the way it is intended. In conclusion, Broken quests (I thought the Miragul thing was determined to be broken?) are bad, mmkay.

[Eclipse]

I understand now, Orlun. I thought your question was a bit different. Skarlath helped me understand it better with his allusions to AC (which is what i played in EQ's stead). I loved that game quite a bit, and I have to agree that there was an awe felt in its storyline that goes unmatched from what i've seen from any other game.
Some of the mobs they created were also pretty incredible. Until the last dregs of their first expansion when they started bringing in EQ mobs like frogs and crap. Virindi were my absolute favorites...always will be.

Those guys were awesome. I know Ominous agrees with me!

Storyline quests that aren't solvable for months later would rock my world, plain and simple, I'm glad I understand now.

-Eclipse

[Orlun]

That sense of wonder about if something is a quest or not is what I fear Vanguard could miss if it has the standard EQ2 type quest journal. Once a quest is activated or triggered, it is written in you journal and there is no doubt that your on a quest. Sooner or later, players will finish the quest and move on. I want there to be a more devious level to some quest. A level that requires only the most curious and determined fact finder to even know a quest exist... or explore places where most other players give up. Unacknowledged quests are the key.

[Nath'aal]

From that perspective...I suppose...you could have unfinishable (is that a word?) quests. For example you could over hear two people talking about...well...anything, but lets just say a lost item. There could still be a entry into your journal that says something like you heard soandso talking about a missing item. There would be no other direction, not even a general locale to look for said item. If I understand what you are saying, it could be possible that you will never find this item, yet there is an entry into your journal. This gives you back the feeling that you had when there was no journal (I think).

I don't know...maybe. I mean I would have to look at that unfinished quest for the rest of my playing time...I would have to have some kind of dev acknowledgement of this quest and them telling me its not broken (even if there is no way to finish it) and that it is working as inteded. And even still, it would flick the back of my OCD head until it was finished. I'm not sure I would like it. All I can say is maybe.

[Orlun]

Maybe then the official quest trigger could be very hard to find or activate. Non quest journal triggering clues and hints could exist in the game to direct the players to where these hidden quest begin. Players would have to hit the clues correctly in order to be granted the quest. Hidden flags could be used to record if the players progress in finding these clues. All this preliminary stuff would be off the quest journal.

[Nath'aal]

Now quest that start but aren't logged into your journal until sometime later is a different story. Vague hints that you would have to pick up on and would secretly flag you sounds great. But does this accomplish the desired effect? Those old unfinished EQ quests do have a certain mystique about them. Towards the end of my EQ career I started researching how far some of them had gotten and started searchig a bit for solutions myself. The problem was when I found out most (if not, all) of the unfinished quests were just broken. This is what I want to avoid. If sometime later down the line someone picks up an old quest that hasn't been finished, they should be assured there is, or will be, a way to finish it. You see what I'm saying? I like your intentions (and I believe I now fully understand them), but there has to be something there. Like I said before, it could just be a dev acknowledgement of a quest and that it is working as intended, whatever that may be.

[Eclipse]

Do we know for sure we will have a journal? I hope we don't.

-Eclipse

[Orlun]

Originally Posted by Eclipse

Do we know for sure we will have a journal? I hope we don't.

-Eclipse

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/faq...aq=31#faq_31_8

[Fynn]

Originally Posted by Orlun

Ages ago, we learned that Sigils quest system for Vanguard would be based upon the quests having multiple solutions. I'm proposing that they sprinkle a few outrageous leaps of faith into the mix that lead to surprising and very unexpected outcomes. They could tie it into the game clock or weather patterns to further reduce repeatablity or spoilerage.

Keep the players somewhat confused and you keep them hungry for a solution.

Well the OP reminded me of the frustration of beating on the alleged oaken scimitar quest in early EQ1 that had something to do with saving the ambassador from an assassin. I can't remember if it was a busted quest that eventually got fixed or just forgotten. The most frustrating thing about it was not being sure if it was a broken quest or if I just needed to keep pluggin away at it. How do you get around that? I'm happy (enough) to keep pluggin away at a challenging puzzle, but feeling like the puzzle is busted is just plain not fun.

Other than that....I would love being rewarded for an outrageous leap of faith that could not necessarily be easily recreated.

I really like the idea of consequences for screwing up the inevitable fed/ex quests and othe similar multiple non-linear outcomes.

As far as weather being a variable, along similar lines I was thinking the other day that a detailed night sky with it's own constellations would lend itself to all kinds of "proper alignment of the stars" variations and quests. But I digress...sorry, bad habit.

[Skarlath]

Originally Posted by Orlun

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/faq...aq=31#faq_31_8

Originally Posted by SV FAQ

Its purpose is ultimately to store information about locations that don't necessarily have to do with a quest.

Hmm, I didn't realise that before. Hopefully this means that the quest journal will not be as comprehensive as journals in WoW or EQ2. Throughout this discussion I have felt more and more that the world is a better place if players aren't given all of the information. That way they are left to wonder about it.

Morrowind's quest journal always gets mentioned at some point or another ... but it is a clear comparison. If Vanguard's quest journal was to take a more 'written notes' form, but perhaps a little more organised than Morrowind's (the ability for the player to move entries around and add their own notes would be nice) would be quite ideal. Initiators would flag you, but in many circumstances would also cause the character to write what they know about it into their diary.

How would that be for mystery? This would force even unobservant players (or those who are too lazy to care) to wonder. You stumble upon a stone circle, and your character writes about it in their journal - not about any more than they know, "I stumbled upon a strange stone circle blah blah". If the player walks close to a certain stone then they might notice runes, and the entry into the journal would update.

Perhaps the character could have a little more memory than the human controlling them, and might draw comparisons that the player did not notice - "The stones are the same as those of the stone circle far to the east, and to my knowledge these stones do not naturally form in this area".

I know that if I was to experience this stone circle, I would wonder if there is more to come in the story. I might draw a comparison between what my character has already witnessed elsewhere, or I might not. I know for sure that I would feel far more involved if I thought "Hmm, identical stone circles, stones brought in from afar ... maybe I should keep my eyes peeled for an NPC who can tell me more" rather than 'Ding! You have a quest called "Talk to Drovan Matleghast about the stone circles".

Mystery is fantastic, and a quest journal could surely be used as a technique to enhance it, rather than turning the game into a column of tick-boxes.

Originally Posted by Eclipse

Virindi were my absolute favorites...always will be.

I was actually frightened of Virindi in my AC days. I was always a noob at heart in Dereth, and the sight of a Virindi scared the pants off of me. I was forever haunted by the first time I had been given a portal to the west. On the other side I had run through the desert a while, and could see high level creatures around me. I was out of the aggro range of one particular Virindi, but as I ran past it, it turned and out of my speakers came a harsh, whispering voice ...

"I see dead people ..."