Why did Brad use a Vision™ in VG

Johnhost · 03-27-2007, 10:12 PM

I will try and explain the reason for the Vision™ and why people were so excited about it.

For those of us who were in Everquest since the early days remember the disturbing trend the game took around Luclin. Most players I talked to seem to feel the game was fairly balanced around the Velious era, Luclin and especially Planes of Power took the game in a totally new direction. Many players who loved the game play mechanics and dynamics of the EQ were upset by this new direction.

The problems with EQ post luclin:

*Instant transportation
*Lack of need for player cities (ghost towns)
*Expansions launched too fast
*Each expansion created better items that were easier to get, older items devalued quickly
*Bazaar (item search made items sell for lower then worth to compete)
*The sudden dependence upon spells like KEI and Temperance
*Secondary market helped ruin economies (SOE did nothing)
*General rapid inflation caused mostly be expansions + secondary market

In fact it has got so bad, that the MOBS you kill appropriate to your level will not drop gear you can effectively use. You MUST purchase raid level gear which instantly devalues on merchants to be effective. And SOE has made MOBS tougher to keep them challenging against these ubber buffed and geared ebayed characters. An honest player has NO chance!

When it was evaluated as to WHY these problem existed, it was determined that SOE lacked a Vision for the game and was haphazardly releasing expansions for subscriber numbers, but ignoring the existing players totally.

The classic server thread:

For those disgruntled players may turned to an idea of a "classic server" and the thread on EQ's forums shows just how much this idea caught on. In fact you could say the progressive servers were SOE's response to this idea.

Everquest 2:

Listening to the whining and moaning of the forums SOE developed EQ2 and most of the game play mechanics designed to cut down on customer service issues (like training, kill stealing, etc). But they also created a quest driven game with more instancing and again took the EQ franchise down a completely different path. EQ2 didn't feel like it was really Everquest.

It was realized after playing EQ2 that their vision was totally different then the original EQ and so it didn't solve the classic players concerns.

Vanguard to answer these concerns:

Brad knew as we all did that Everquest was a success because of it's game play mechanics. It was addictive because the risk vs. reward was there. In EQ2 dying felt so easy compared to EQ1, and as a result MOBS and dungeons didn't have that heart stopping fear to it, lost it's mystique.

As the hopes for Vanguard went into design, the FAQ naturally came out of that, and those EQ1 players who felt by this time disenfranchised by the new direction of EQ were getting excited! These players stuck with Sigil through the beta phase and I remember the sheer mania to be in beta. We wanted to get that "first kiss" experience again.

What happened:

Sigil left Microsoft, went to SOE and had to launch before they were done. The game is still catching up to a finished product. Sigil had to make changes to the plan in order to make the game fun, the gaming population demanded more quests, more EQ2 and WoW style play progression. And worst of all, the game was far too much for most PC's to handle. So people who would otherwise be playing couldn't.

People talk about the Vision™ changing, it didn't change, the game IS NOT finished yet. There really is NO polish, and many of the featured we were promised will come later on down the line.

Conclusion:

Sometime down the road Sigil will put in the polish, add the features we are waiting for, and squash bugs. At some point people's PC's will be upgraded and they will get bored with their current MMORPG. I think everyone sees this game's awesome potential, but until they do these things most people will stay away.

Tirolan Lioncourt · 03-27-2007, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhost

I will try and explain the reason for the Vision™ and why people were so excited about it.

For those of us who were in Everquest since the early days remember the disturbing trend the game took around Luclin. Most players I talked to seem to feel the game was fairly balanced around the Velious era, Luclin and especially Planes of Power took the game in a totally new direction. Many players who loved the game play mechanics and dynamics of the EQ were upset by this new direction.

The problems with EQ post luclin:

*Instant transportation
*Lack of need for player cities (ghost towns)
*Expansions launched too fast
*Each expansion created better items that were easier to get, older items devalued quickly
*Bazaar (item search made items sell for lower then worth to compete)
*The sudden dependence upon spells like KEI and Temperance
*Secondary market helped ruin economies (SOE did nothing)
*General rapid inflation caused mostly be expansions + secondary market

In fact it has got so bad, that the MOBS you kill appropriate to your level will not drop gear you can effectively use. You MUST purchase raid level gear which instantly devalues on merchants to be effective. And SOE has made MOBS tougher to keep them challenging against these ubber buffed and geared ebayed characters. An honest player has NO chance!

When it was evaluated as to WHY these problem existed, it was determined that SOE lacked a Vision for the game and was haphazardly releasing expansions for subscriber numbers, but ignoring the existing players totally.

The classic server thread:

For those disgruntled players may turned to an idea of a "classic server" and the thread on EQ's forums shows just how much this idea caught on. In fact you could say the progressive servers were SOE's response to this idea.

Everquest 2:

Listening to the whining and moaning of the forums SOE developed EQ2 and most of the game play mechanics designed to cut down on customer service issues (like training, kill stealing, etc). But they also created a quest driven game with more instancing and again took the EQ franchise down a completely different path. EQ2 didn't feel like it was really Everquest.

It was realized after playing EQ2 that their vision was totally different then the original EQ and so it didn't solve the classic players concerns.

Vanguard to answer these concerns:

Brad knew as we all did that Everquest was a success because of it's game play mechanics. It was addictive because the risk vs. reward was there. In EQ2 dying felt so easy compared to EQ1, and as a result MOBS and dungeons didn't have that heart stopping fear to it, lost it's mystique.

As the hopes for Vanguard went into design, the FAQ naturally came out of that, and those EQ1 players who felt by this time disenfranchised by the new direction of EQ were getting excited! These players stuck with Sigil through the beta phase and I remember the sheer mania to be in beta. We wanted to get that "first kiss" experience again.

What happened:

Sigil left Microsoft, went to SOE and had to launch before they were done. The game is still catching up to a finished product. Sigil had to make changes to the plan in order to make the game fun, the gaming population demanded more quests, more EQ2 and WoW style play progression. And worst of all, the game was far too much for most PC's to handle. So people who would otherwise be playing couldn't.

People talk about the Vision™ changing, it didn't change, the game IS NOT finished yet. There really is NO polish, and many of the featured we were promised will come later on down the line.

Conclusion:

Sometime down the road Sigil will put in the polish, add the features we are waiting for, and squash bugs. At some point people's PC's will be upgraded and they will get bored with their current MMORPG. I think everyone sees this game's awesome potential, but until they do these things most people will stay away.

When are you people going to learn, EQ was awesome(for you and others) because it was your first, there was only one other competitor out there at release, Ultima Online...and later four if I am correct, adding Asheron's Call and DAoC...

It wasn't a success cuz it was uber hard, had raids or any of the other things, it was unique at the time because there was nothing like it... You will not ever get that same feeling again. Guaranteed.

givionte · 03-27-2007, 10:46 PM

Who cares? The game is fine, just play it for gosh sakes.

piknik2 · 03-27-2007, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhost

Sometime down the road Sigil will put in the polish, add the features we are waiting for, and squash bugs. At some point people's PC's will be upgraded and they will get bored with their current MMORPG. I think everyone sees this game's awesome potential, but until they do these things most people will stay away.

Unless their current MMORPG is VG.. and they leave for 'greener' pastures; leaving what money for all this supposed goodness to happen?

Also, agree with Tirolan in that everyone is always searching to recreate that first magical MMO experience they had whether it be EQ or otherwise ( for me that was Ragnarok, feel free to laugh it up heh ) but that feeling can never be recaptured. However, you may once again get something close to that feeling by playing something completely NEW; alas this and the countless other innovation-less clones cannot hope to do that for you.

Aginor · 03-27-2007, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tirolan Lioncourt

When are you people going to learn, EQ was awesome(for you and others) because it was your first, there was only one other competitor out there at release, Ultima Online...and later four if I am correct, adding Asheron's Call and DAoC...

It wasn't a success cuz it was uber hard, had raids or any of the other things, it was unique at the time because there was nothing like it... You will not ever get that same feeling again. Guaranteed.

When you say "You people" it doesnt sound like you've actually played EQ.

Besides, i've played UO, muds before that and even AO, DaOC, AC, Lineage in between all that, and have always come back to EQ. Even took a break from EQ2 to play EQ again for a while.

Why did i quit in the first place? Well i played it continuously the first 3 years, played alltogether like 6 years, thats a sign of a game delivering.

It also had "soul" compared to todays games.

AND *drumroll* the community was nothing short of awesome, best people i've played with, ever.

Oh well

SolZer · 03-27-2007, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhost

I will try and explain the reason for the Vision™ and why people were so excited about it.

For those of us who were in Everquest since the early days remember the disturbing trend the game took around Luclin. Most players I talked to seem to feel the game was fairly balanced around the Velious era, Luclin and especially Planes of Power took the game in a totally new direction. Many players who loved the game play mechanics and dynamics of the EQ were upset by this new direction.

The problems with EQ post luclin:

*Instant transportation
*Lack of need for player cities (ghost towns)
*Expansions launched too fast
*Each expansion created better items that were easier to get, older items devalued quickly
*Bazaar (item search made items sell for lower then worth to compete)
*The sudden dependence upon spells like KEI and Temperance
*Secondary market helped ruin economies (SOE did nothing)
*General rapid inflation caused mostly be expansions + secondary market

In fact it has got so bad, that the MOBS you kill appropriate to your level will not drop gear you can effectively use. You MUST purchase raid level gear which instantly devalues on merchants to be effective. And SOE has made MOBS tougher to keep them challenging against these ubber buffed and geared ebayed characters. An honest player has NO chance!

When it was evaluated as to WHY these problem existed, it was determined that SOE lacked a Vision for the game and was haphazardly releasing expansions for subscriber numbers, but ignoring the existing players totally.

The classic server thread:

For those disgruntled players may turned to an idea of a "classic server" and the thread on EQ's forums shows just how much this idea caught on. In fact you could say the progressive servers were SOE's response to this idea.

Everquest 2:

Listening to the whining and moaning of the forums SOE developed EQ2 and most of the game play mechanics designed to cut down on customer service issues (like training, kill stealing, etc). But they also created a quest driven game with more instancing and again took the EQ franchise down a completely different path. EQ2 didn't feel like it was really Everquest.

It was realized after playing EQ2 that their vision was totally different then the original EQ and so it didn't solve the classic players concerns.

Vanguard to answer these concerns:

Brad knew as we all did that Everquest was a success because of it's game play mechanics. It was addictive because the risk vs. reward was there. In EQ2 dying felt so easy compared to EQ1, and as a result MOBS and dungeons didn't have that heart stopping fear to it, lost it's mystique.

As the hopes for Vanguard went into design, the FAQ naturally came out of that, and those EQ1 players who felt by this time disenfranchised by the new direction of EQ were getting excited! These players stuck with Sigil through the beta phase and I remember the sheer mania to be in beta. We wanted to get that "first kiss" experience again.

What happened:

Sigil left Microsoft, went to SOE and had to launch before they were done. The game is still catching up to a finished product. Sigil had to make changes to the plan in order to make the game fun, the gaming population demanded more quests, more EQ2 and WoW style play progression. And worst of all, the game was far too much for most PC's to handle. So people who would otherwise be playing couldn't.

People talk about the Vision™ changing, it didn't change, the game IS NOT finished yet. There really is NO polish, and many of the featured we were promised will come later on down the line.

Conclusion:

Sometime down the road Sigil will put in the polish, add the features we are waiting for, and squash bugs. At some point people's PC's will be upgraded and they will get bored with their current MMORPG. I think everyone sees this game's awesome potential, but until they do these things most people will stay away.

A lot of what made EQ successful for it's generation was due to the fact that there wasn't much competition. It was absolutely revolutionary for its time, and there wasn't a heck of a lot to compair it to. Fortunately, there's a lot of competition these days, so unfortunately a game just like EQ will never be as successful as EQ.

In addition to this, the memories and feelings you had during this time will never be able to be replaced. It's time for new memories and new feelings. Nothing ever will be able to replace the experiences and feelings you had when playing your first gen MMO.

For some it was EQ. For others it was UO or even AC. Heck, my first MMO is still my favorite. Do I still play that game today? No. Why? Well, it's just not the same. What I miss and fell in love with was the EXPERIENCE.

There are all kinds of variables that go into an experience, and the game is but one.

I really hate to say it, but it's just the God honest truth.

Aginor · 03-27-2007, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolZer

A lot of what made EQ successful for it's generation was due to the fact that there wasn't much competition. There wasn't a lot to compair it to. Fortunately, there is a lot of competition these days, so a game just like EQ will never be as successful as EQ was.

In addition to this, the memories and feelings you had during this time will never be able to be replaced. It's time for new memories and new feelings. Nothing ever will be able to replace the experiences and feelings you had when playing your first gen MMO.

For some it was EQ. For others it was AC. Heck, my first MMO is still my favorite. Do I still play that game today? No. Why? Well, it's just not the same. What I miss and fell in love with was the experience.

There are all kinds of variables that go into an experience, and the game is but one.

I really hate to say it, but it's just the God honest truth.

Quote:

Besides, i've played UO, muds before that and even AO, DaOC, AC, Lineage in between all that, and have always come back to EQ. Even took a break from EQ2 to play EQ again for a while.

Why did i quit in the first place? Well i played it continuously the first 3 years, played alltogether like 6 years, thats a sign of a game delivering.

It also had "soul" compared to todays games.

AND *drumroll* the community was nothing short of awesome, best people i've played with, ever.

Oh well

I hate quoting myself

Did you ever play EQ?

Ralvark@Woefeather · 03-27-2007, 11:10 PM

For anyone who's saying that VG doesn't have the potential to recapture the magic of EverQuest, the second I logged in, heard the music and saw the typeface above the NPC's name in Tursh, my nostalgia was eased a great deal.

I can't imagine if they gave it the ol' EverQuest spirit but doing away with the whiners and build towards how the game is meant to be made.

Kenak · 03-27-2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tirolan Lioncourt

When are you people going to learn, EQ was awesome(for you and others) because it was your first, there was only one other competitor out there at release, Ultima Online...and later four if I am correct, adding Asheron's Call and DAoC...

It wasn't a success cuz it was uber hard, had raids or any of the other things, it was unique at the time because there was nothing like it... You will not ever get that same feeling again. Guaranteed.

I can prove you wrong right now: I played on The Combine, and had a blast. Granted a few things were there that were meh, but all and all it was almost as good as when I first played EQ. In fact, things got better and better: Kunark and Velius were actually great expansions that really improved gameplay (I never noticed the Original Planes to care). Once Luclin came out, the game felt (while not too much) different and lost a bit of its appeal. Once PoP came out, I was gone.

I can tell you that I have a more thrilling time grouping on Orc Hill in EQ1, than duoing Blackburrow in EQ2, fighting Yellow Heroic spiders that are supposed to be difficult. And if you die? I get 0.5% experience debt and respawn at the entrance of the dungeon.

SolZer · 03-27-2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aginor

I hate quoting myself

Did you ever play EQ?

Yes. It's been a while, but yes I did play.

Isobel · 03-27-2007, 11:13 PM

The polish, which i agree is icoming, and The Vision™ aren't the same thing at all and a good deal of those things which were advertised have already been abandoned...so yes, the vision has changed.

SolZer · 03-27-2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isobel

The polish, which i agree is icoming, and The Vision™ aren't the same thing at all and a good deal of those things which were advertised have already been abandoned...so yes, the vision has changed.

Right, and IMO this is a GOOD thing. If visions never changed we would have NEVER had EQ to begin with. We'd all be playing MUDs still.

Aroua999 · 03-27-2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenak

I can prove you wrong right now: I played on The Combine, and had a blast. Granted a few things were there that were meh, but all and all it was almost as good as when I first played EQ. In fact, things got better and better: Kunark and Velius were actually great expansions that really improved gameplay (I never noticed the Original Planes to care). Once Luclin came out, the game felt (while not too much) different and lost a bit of its appeal. Once PoP came out, I was gone.

I can tell you that I have a more thrilling time grouping on Orc Hill in EQ1, than duoing Blackburrow in EQ2, fighting Yellow Heroic spiders that are supposed to be difficult. And if you die? I get 0.5% experience debt and respawn at the entrance of the dungeon.

I'm not trying to be jerk, I am just confused as to how any part of this staement proved him wrong? It sounds to me like you are agreeing with him. Maybe I'm just not readin your correctly.

He is saying EQ was awesome in it's own right, but also because it was unique at the time. Now there are none that uniques so capturing that unique fell is harder. You just seemed to agree with what everyone else here is saying. ??

Ralvark@Woefeather · 03-27-2007, 11:21 PM

Comparing a first kiss being special to your first MMO being special isn't a fair comparison.

First kisses last a few seconds to a few a more seconds. For many of us, we grew with EQ for years.

Saying that no game will ever have the magic of EverQuest is like saying if you're married and your spouse dies you should give up hope of finding someone else to love just as much.

Isobel · 03-27-2007, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolZer

Right, and IMO this is a GOOD thing. If visions never changed we would have NEVER had EQ to begin with. We'd all be playing MUDs still.

The fact that visions change is, as a general rule a good thing. The direction in which this game is chaging isn't good, as far as i see it.

Aginor · 03-27-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralvark@Woefeather

Comparing a first kiss being special to your first MMO being special isn't a fair comparison.

First kisses last a few seconds to a few a more seconds. For many of us, we grew with EQ for years.

Saying that no game will ever have the magic of EverQuest is like saying if you're married and your spouse dies you should give up hope of finding someone else to love just as much.

awkward comparisment =/

Sylindril · 03-27-2007, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralvark@Woefeather

For anyone who's saying that VG doesn't have the potential to recapture the magic of EverQuest, the second I logged in, heard the music and saw the typeface above the NPC's name in Tursh, my nostalgia was eased a great deal.

I can't imagine if they gave it the ol' EverQuest spirit but doing away with the whiners and build towards how the game is meant to be made.

Agreed, pretty much the only thing for me that really blows about Vanguard is the little kids on the forums.......hanzo.....displeasingrealilty.

The game and these forums is like night/day, guess this is as good a place as any to absorb the venom, game on.

Sylindril · 03-27-2007, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isobel

The fact that visions change is, as a general rule a good thing. The direction in which this game is chaging isn't good, as far as i see it.

If you build it they will come.

VG needs to stick to the vision, polish her up and they will come.

If it becomes a victim of wowification, than ya it was a bad direction.

SolZer · 03-27-2007, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralvark@Woefeather

Comparing a first kiss being special to your first MMO being special isn't a fair comparison.

First kisses last a few seconds to a few a more seconds. For many of us, we grew with EQ for years.

Saying that no game will ever have the magic of EverQuest is like saying if you're married and your spouse dies you should give up hope of finding someone else to love just as much.

Interesting analogy here. True, you shouldn't give up hope for finding someone new that you love just as much, but that first spouse will be irreplacable from a memories point of view, or kids point of view, etc. You may find someone new, but no two people are the same. You will not love the same things about them.

Requiring that your new love be just like your old love will quickly result in you being alone. Trust me on that :P