[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by kcxiv

Hopefully they can put some money into the game, and do some advertising and have a re-release with some free trials for anyone that cares to try it.

But they were contractually obligated to promote and distribute the game all ready. As a co-producer and chief marketer from last spring they should have all ready done this. Remember, they are in charge of distribution. So they should have all ready spent their wad on advertising.

If subscriptions are going down, then it's not a matter of "trying" the game.

[Zarthaine]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

But why do you think the rumor is true? And, why would SGO sell their only source of income?

For starters, they have often said that the game was not ready for release yet, who knows honestly when "release" would have really been set based on the several years of development and huge amount of money dumped into the game. If they released it because they had no choice in the matter then they did not have the full control they assumed they would continue to have with the SoE backing. Why do people declare to be bankrupt after investing so much in a business? Because at some point they realize the debt far exceeds the potential to pay it off.

It sounds like you think SOE would be a money source. Well, they all ready are as a co-producer. They supported the team from last spring to release. From what I've seen, Brad and Sigil would rather have not released the game in Jan. but Brad insisted that the release was caused by a lack of funding, i.e. SOE said no more and pulled the release cord. Now that Sigil is making a couple of million a month, why do they need another sugardaddy?

Because they most likely are not making a substaintial income off the game. Out of the box sales, how many are All Access subscribers that went back to the SoE games while the bugs are being fixed? That would represent "0" income, yet still a subscriber to them. Out of the box sales, how much of that went into SoE hands as the distributer/producer?

If it's just a matter of taking time to work out details to improve the game, why would they need to sell? Sigil has a steady income when they did not for the past five years. And, it's common knowledge that the lifespan of games like this is years. Why start talk now of selling the game when they could take a year and see how things develop?

Sigil had Microsoft as a backer, then SoE as a backer. I don't really see that as self sufficient. Unless Brad and Company came up with the 35 Million out of pocket, then there are notes and investors to be paid. It's far easier to hold off debt while developing a product than it is after release. No one can really tell if it's going to be a white elephant until the doors open, if there are too many problems, investors start to get nervous about potential payback of the investment.

I doubt people are saying that Sigil wants to sell their game. What are the reasons for forcing a sale?

Under the assumption that the rumor is true, which it may very well not be, then I would speculate that 5 years and 35 million dollars would be the reasoning behind it. Were SoE to take over, it would mean that SoE who already has the staff, servers and experience in the field would spend less to maintain the game as there would be no one but SoE to share the profits with, unlike Sigil who is forced to maintain their staff and pay a share over to SoE.

Being forces to pay back investors now? I doubt anyone in the MMO field would decide a game's fate in three months. Brad has said that the ROI is something like 250,000 players (but he did not say for how long). In that light, it looks like Sigil is close, so why would an investor panic now and demand his money?

Again, if it was not Sigil's choice to release when they did, then obviously the crunch for money was on well before this point in time. To me it sounds like "We will release it, but here's your one shot at proving it's a winner, take it or leave it". Obviously, if the numbers were crunching, then everyone is happy and no one rocks the boat. I would guess that part of the selling feature on the SoE side to investors was "If it flops, we buy it, it costs us far less to maintain and we require less of a return; if it flies, we make extra money for an existing infrastructure" so it would be a win/win for SoE.

Buy-out clause in SGO/SOE deal? What in the world could make Sigil do a $30 million bet that is called in the first three months of the game? When we discussed the SGO/SOE deal, I don't remember any hint of this and I don't see any support for this on the forums this year.

Well, there was a movie with Dannie D'Vito called "Other People's Money" which pretty much explains in a comical way how when your playing with other people's money, they are the ones really in control.

Sigil giving up? I cannot fathom this. Developers do not put years into a game and building a company to just quit after a few bad months.

Sigil needs money for other investments? No company would cut off their legs to put a tool in their hand. Vanguard is Sigil's funding; there would be no reason to sell that.

So what reasons do people think the rumor is true? No, I'm not asking about people's opinions or fears, but reasons. So far all I have seen are laypeople thinking about the way the wind is blowing today. I am looking for reasons and foundations.

My opinions are simple in the matter. If someone on a website posted that there was a rumor that the company was being taken over and it was not true, both SoE and Sigil would have their lawyers who sit on retainer working overtime to sue you for libel as well as a PR department doing serious spin control.

If nothing else, they would be responding to the posts telling people not to worry, everything is going great, were turning a profit, the game is getting better every day (which it is) and all is well.

The fact that they released the game when it was not in their best interest to do so indicates they were no longer in the driver's seat.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Zarthaine

The fact that they released the game when it was not in their best interest to do so indicates they were no longer in the driver's seat.

You make it sound so black and white. There is a huge gap between not having the funding to further development and being on their last dime.

But thank you for your response. It hinged only on the "if this was their one last gamble, then..." concept, which I highly doubt and see no basis for (considering it's a real company with real accountants), but maybe.

[ilnati]

There are no Americans in Baghdad! I repeat, there are no Americans in Baghdad!

[QforQ]

Originally Posted by Nólaquen

Take that for what it is worth, which is circumstantial evidence at best. Maybe SOE's Brenlo (who registered here just last Thrusday and approved for posting today) can clarify for us soon.

Brenlo registering here would lead me to believe that it was true...but hey I'm already pretty well convinced the rumor is true :P All I'm saying is if SOE's head of community relations starts registering at the bigger affiliate fansites for the game, I wonder what that may mean? Sigil already has a community manager(Elrar), I dont know why SOE would be putting theirs out here for no reason at all

Originally Posted by Atoyota

yeah we will most likely get a long explanation from Brad how all of this was inevitable but good for the game!

Just more spin...

I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see a Brad post on FOH in the near future.

I bet by Friday we'll have the answer to this rumor.

[Jalex]

Brad Speaks on this issue!...on the SOE support forum.

Subject: Update on the future of Sigil and Vanguard coming soon...

It's all ultimately good news, but complicated enough to justify one of my verbose postings I should have my first Sigil/Vanguard update up tomorrow and then look for regular updates as to the future of the game here and on the affiliate sites (probably weekly or so, depending on what's going on). I will post here first and then immediately copy the post to a set of the Vanguard affiliate sites.

thanks,

-Brad


Message edited by Aradune on 04/28/2007 21:18:02.

I guess that makes it official then?

[peppy13]

Originally Posted by Jalex

Brad Speaks on this issue!...on the SOE support forum.




I guess that makes it official then?

Hold on to your butts.

[Cristof]

It's a robotic double! it's a trap! run for it!


Actually, whats the url to that thread? ^^

[Kimi]

Originally Posted by nuandy

so why did you not edit the post where i was called pompus (pompous)

you are talking totle bollox (total)

it is pathetic

Legally, the truth is a defense against libel.

[nuandy]

Originally Posted by Kimi

Legally, the truth is a defense against libel.

and you are insulting me and the fasy i have word blindness which means i cant spell for shit but i live with it



looks forward to another warrning for being honest from the complretly fair mods

EDIT: for content. ~fozz

[Vyanu]

I have never seen a game so under pressure like Vanguard from outside sources. So i really hope Sigil wont give up!

In no game i found so much Goldselling attacks, hacks and stirring up rumors and unhappiness against the game.
There is bugs, there is mistakes.. but whoever starts such a project will face the same, Sigil has done a great job and just has started.
For me the whole situation rather looks like sabotaging the game.

For those who complaint about lacking fast bugfixes, please keep in mind that Sigil's time is majorly occupied by all the forces trying to wreck up the game.
I just hope Sigil keeps control and has time to improve.

I remind that EQ1 originally was coded from Verant - the former Sigil people.. and went down when SOE bought out the game.

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by Vyanu

I remind that EQ1 originally was coded from Verant - the former Sigil people.. and went down when SOE bought out the game.

Personally I think PoP was the pinnacle of EQ. So many Gods and stuff to kill. Cool AA's and good itemization with varied focus effects and clickies. It was truly the best time to be a hardcore gamer.

[Zarthaine]

Originally Posted by Vyanu

I have never seen a game so under pressure like Vanguard from outside sources. So i really hope Sigil wont give up!

In no game i found so much Goldselling attacks, hacks and stirring up rumors and unhappiness against the game.
There is bugs, there is mistakes.. but whoever starts such a project will face the same, Sigil has done a great job and just has started.
For me the whole situation rather looks like sabotaging the game.

For those who complaint about lacking fast bugfixes, please keep in mind that Sigil's time is majorly occupied by all the forces trying to wreck up the game.
I just hope Sigil keeps control and has time to improve.

I remind that EQ1 originally was coded from Verant - the former Sigil people.. and went down when SOE bought out the game.

May I remind you that Verant was ALWAYS under SoE control, it was a division owned by them. Who wrecked the game in it's 5+ years of development? Who was it that said the game was released 6 months early and based on the cutting edge PC's that will be affordable in six months and now states that we should all be upgrading to DX-10 machines so were ready for the re-launch at the end of the year?

Please, do explain how their time is spend trying to defend themselves instead of fixing bugs because of those who are out to wreck the game? Last I checked, the bugs were all their's, not the work of hackers sabotaging the game.

Oh, for the record, Verant was not coded by the former Sigil people, Sigil was coded by the former SoE team. If we want to be truthful, EQ continued on in fine shape and still continues to produce content long after the team that could do it so much better left to create...well...this.

Edit: Remember the old SoS ~vs~ Brillo adds? Guess what, they were owned by the same company, so matter who won the battle, the company won the war. In the case of Verant ~vs~ SoE, it was always a case that if the MMoG flopped it would be remembered as Verant's doing, if it did not, well, now you know the rest of the story. Sometimes companies use smoke screens to their advantage.

[Chebo]

Originally Posted by Zarthaine

May I remind you that Verant was ALWAYS under SoE control, it was a division owned by them. Who wrecked the game in it's 5+ years of development? Who was it that said the game was released 6 months early and based on the cutting edge PC's that will be affordable in six months and now states that we should all be upgrading to DX-10 machines so were ready for the re-launch at the end of the year?

Please, do explain how their time is spend trying to defend themselves instead of fixing bugs because of those who are out to wreck the game? Last I checked, the bugs were all their's, not the work of hackers sabotaging the game.

Oh, for the record, Verant was not coded by the former Sigil people, Sigil was coded by the former SoE team. If we want to be truthful, EQ continued on in fine shape and still continues to produce content long after the team that could do it so much better left to create...well...this.

Edit: Remember the old SoS ~vs~ Brillo adds? Guess what, they were owned by the same company, so matter who won the battle, the company won the war. In the case of Verant ~vs~ SoE, it was always a case that if the MMoG flopped it would be remembered as Verant's doing, if it did not, well, now you know the rest of the story. Sometimes companies use smoke screens to their advantage.

Sorry? Scars of Velious was the last good expansion for EQ. Everything after that was, pretty much, garbage.

As for Vanguard? Hate to see it happen but, I saw this coming 2 months ago when I beta tested the thing and SoE and Sigil had already come to an agreement for publishing etc. This is the way SoE operates. It always has and always will. Good luck to you staying with VG.

Those of you praising SoE are seriously deluded. That company is nothing but one big giant Parasite.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Vyanu

I have never seen a game so under pressure like Vanguard from outside sources. So i really hope Sigil wont give up!

I cannot comprehend someone being this ignorant.

Who do you think put themselves in this situation? Who created this game, and along with it, all the problems surrounding said game? Have you stopped to think that if SGO hadn't bombed the release so badly, that people wouldn't have a reason to be upset?

I'm glad you enjoy the game; obviously there is nothing wrong with that. However, people who paid money are every bit as justified to complain and gripe - I'm sorry if that is a tough pill to swallow for VG fans.

[Athalus]

Verant was always owned by SOE, which means Everquest was NEVER outside of SOE's scope. Your information is incorrect in that regard.

[Akuma]

Originally Posted by Chebo

Sorry? Scars of Velious was the last good expansion for EQ. Everything after that was, pretty much, garbage.

As for Vanguard? Hate to see it happen but, I saw this coming 2 months ago when I beta tested the thing and SoE and Sigil had already come to an agreement for publishing etc. This is the way SoE operates. It always has and always will. Good luck to you staying with VG.

Those of you praising SoE are seriously deluded. That company is nothing but one big giant Parasite.

A bit one-sided aren't you?

Do you really think Smedley came up with an evil scheme from hell 1 year ago in his office while reading machiavel? :"har har har, i'm gonna publish vanguard for brad, this game will fail so badly that he will be forced to accept our support and we'll pull another NGE on players and they will all be upset!!!"

Get real. VG bombed because Sigil designed a piece of crap and SoE is here to save the day. Without SoE, servers would close.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Chebo

As for Vanguard? Hate to see it happen but, I saw this coming 2 months ago when I beta tested the thing and SoE and Sigil had already come to an agreement for publishing etc. This is the way SoE operates. It always has and always will. Good luck to you staying with VG.

The way SOE operates? What other game, that they did not develop, did they distribute and then take over? MxO was bought after distribution and after it was known to be a low-population MMO. Any other?

[Vyanu]

No, i am not all happy about the game went and there is things i would love to see changed, but i give people the time to improve.
After working on such a project for years you are outburned and then face a bunch of companies who want to see your game fail and go down the drain.
For those who dont believe there is outside influence check how much Goldsellers attack the game. To kick them out someone has to check, prove and make sure hes not kicking the wrong person ..else the yelling will be huge!
For those who dont believe there has been hacking.. the 2nd day after launch the graphic of mob in Kojan was definitely changed to Micky Mouse figures.
For those who dont believe about spreading unhappiness there is people who are definitely working for big companies and i hear them jumping on each bug and stirring up what a mess that coding is and spread in guild aswell as forum hate.
I am definitly not running closed eyed, neither in one nor the other side.

The reason i dont mention the suff i like to be different is , that i realize that there is a different player generation around now , what want nothing but fast money, fast exp and a fast easy game. A challange for them is just a waste of time.
I hear complaining and hear bugs aswell in game as in beta i never witnessed as bugs BUT as not correctly reading quest demand.
Ok we pay for the game.. thats correct.. but there is an easy way to stop to be unhappy.. just stop and thats it. But stop whining too!

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Vyanu

For those who dont believe there has been hacking.. the 2nd day after launch the graphic of mob in Kojan was definitely changed to Micky Mouse figures.

LOL, this is Sigil's placeholder from beta. Sigil hacked their own system and placed a placeholder graphic in a spot?