[etchazz]

Originally Posted by Vyanu

No, i am not all happy about the game went and there is things i would love to see changed, but i give people the time to improve.
After working on such a project for years you are outburned and then face a bunch of companies who want to see your game fail and go down the drain.
For those who dont believe there is outside influence check how much Goldsellers attack the game. To kick them out someone has to check, prove and make sure hes not kicking the wrong person ..else the yelling will be huge!
For those who dont believe there has been hacking.. the 2nd day after launch the graphic of mob in Kojan was definitely changed to Micky Mouse figures.
For those who dont believe about spreading unhappiness there is people who are definitely working for big companies and i hear them jumping on each bug and stirring up what a mess that coding is and spread in guild aswell as forum hate.
I am definitly not running closed eyed, neither in one nor the other side.

The reason i dont mention the suff i like to be different is , that i realize that there is a different player generation around now , what want nothing but fast money, fast exp and a fast easy game. A challange for them is just a waste of time.
I hear complaining and hear bugs aswell in game as in beta i never witnessed as bugs BUT as not correctly reading quest demand.
Ok we pay for the game.. thats correct.. but there is an easy way to stop to be unhappy.. just stop and thats it. But stop whining too!

i have been reading SV for a long time but have never responded to a post until now. i think this has to be said. seriously, no one from the outside is trying to bring down VG, sigil is doing it all by themselves. do you think blizzard cares one iota about this game? or any other company for that matter? the people that sigil were counting on to leave WoW and come play VG by the truckloads arent going anywhere (especially as flawed as this game currently is) and the few who did leave is an insignificant drop in the bucket as far as blizzard is concerned. blizzard is laughing the whole way to the bank, and brad is heading toward that same bank but instead of depositing money he's gonna be filing for chapter 11.

[Matt-Kire]

other than the economy, what is everyone complaiing about? I have yet to be bored of the game which is the first time I can say tha SINCE SWG... not WOW... not EQ2.... not GW... and not Lineage 2...

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by Matt-Kire

other than the economy, what is everyone complaiing about?

Well, Brad said the game wouldn't be finsihed/ready/completed/approved by the silver surfer until 2008. I'd take that as a hint that there's a bit more work involved in fixing Vanguard than just sorting out the economy.

[Matt-Kire]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Well, Brad said the game wouldn't be finsihed/ready/completed/approved by the silver surfer until 2008. I'd take that as a hint that there's a bit more work involved in fixing Vanguard than just sorting out the economy.

but WHAT needs fixing? I am able to adventure both solo and in group.... I am able to chat... able to make things.... buy things... sell things... trade things.... I am able to harvest.... I am able to do Diplomacy....

I have fairly good FPS and don't disconnect or crash a whole ton, actually very very rarely...

so WHAT IS BROKE???

just saying there is a lot to be fixed doesn't mean a whole lot


in every single game ever created "there is ALOT of things that need to be fixed"...

from someone's point of view...

[Zarthaine]

Originally Posted by Matt-Kire

but WHAT needs fixing? I am able to adventure both solo and in group.... I am able to chat... able to make things.... buy things... sell things... trade things.... I am able to harvest.... I am able to do Diplomacy....

I have fairly good FPS and don't disconnect or crash a whole ton, actually very very rarely...

so WHAT IS BROKE???

just saying there is a lot to be fixed doesn't mean a whole lot


in every single game ever created "there is ALOT of things that need to be fixed"...

from someone's point of view...

First off, congratulations on a awesome system, perhaps you and the 20% of the user base with such systems don't encounter as many problems as those who meet and exceed the recommended specifications that don't really cut it, however that does not mean the game functions as intended. For the game to function as intended it needs to be able to run on those listed specifications ON THE BOX; otherwise, they need to put those specifications on the box.

Problems:

1. Duping through exploits ruining the economy on some servers.

2. As a result of duping, servers are no longer being reset until it is fixed, thus many long quests cannot be completed as the boss/named is not spawning.

3. Logging into a crash and then not being able to recover a corpse.

4. Chunking and disconnecting from the current group.

5. Chunking and crashing to desktop.

6. Chunking and being disconnected from chat servers.

7. Logging in to discover that the long quest you were on the previous day no longer updates resulting in deleting the quest after several log in's and still not getting updates. This is especially fun on quests that involve collecting 5-10 of a rare drop of a common mob or a kill 100 of a triple dot 2 levels above you requiring a small group.

8. Unable to for groups in many cases if the person is not near you. It would be nice to be able to invite that person from another continent who is making a long trip to you and be able to communicate with them without resorting to tells.

9. Fellowship, well, their working on that one still.

10. Lag spikes resulting in deaths. Engage a mob, start fighting, everything comes to a stop for say 10 seconds, you get to gamble on if you lived or died. Meanwhile you can be hunting in that area for an hour and not have it happen at all, then have it happen on the next few mobs.

11. Mobs becoming stuck when engaged, they can hit you with spells, you get "Target out of Range".

12. Spells not refreshing on certain pulls resulting in not being able to cast on a mob in range that is casting on you just fine. If your a solo class with no ability to heal, this can be rather unfavorable.

13. Loosing buffs while chunking into some areas.

14. Heal Target (person next to you fighting) is out of range, even though their right in front of you.

These are just the ones that I encounter from day to day play. Don't get me wrong, the game is great fun, but bug free? No, I really don't think so.

[shrikke]

Originally Posted by etchazz

i have been reading SV for a long time but have never responded to a post until now. i think this has to be said. seriously, no one from the outside is trying to bring down VG, sigil is doing it all by themselves. do you think blizzard cares one iota about this game? or any other company for that matter? the people that sigil were counting on to leave WoW and come play VG by the truckloads arent going anywhere (especially as flawed as this game currently is) and the few who did leave is an insignificant drop in the bucket as far as blizzard is concerned. blizzard is laughing the whole way to the bank, and brad is heading toward that same bank but instead of depositing money he's gonna be filing for chapter 11.

Interesting. I am going to go out on a limb and state that one of the awesome features of Vanguard SOH is that it IS disappointing so many of the people that I really did not want in the game AT ALL. If I wanted a bunch of narrow-minded instant gratification junkies I would still be playing WoW. This game has fantastic people in it. I have not even had to start a jerkwad list. I don't need a friends list, the people are so awesome it is part of the FEATUREs of the early EQ1: kindness, generosity, and a whole bunch of things you guys that LOVE WoW just don't get. Maybe when you grow up some you can come join us in VG. Maybe not, but whatever, I am having fun NOW.

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by shrikke

Interesting. I am going to go out on a limb and state that one of the awesome features of Vanguard SOH is that it IS disappointing so many of the people that I really did not want in the game AT ALL. If I wanted a bunch of narrow-minded instant gratification junkies I would still be playing WoW. This game has fantastic people in it. I have not even had to start a jerkwad list. I don't need a friends list, the people are so awesome it is part of the FEATUREs of the early EQ1: kindness, generosity, and a whole bunch of things you guys that LOVE WoW just don't get. Maybe when you grow up some you can come join us in VG. Maybe not, but whatever, I am having fun NOW.

Man, that is the most rose-tinted thing I have seen all day. Early EQ was more drama-rific than anything to date other than corp battles in EVE.

I'm glad you have the final say though, and are making Vanguard be so unappealing that it is tanking. Good business move there. You and 35k people that you deem worthy will surely have the time of your lives.. at least until they pull the plug or patch in the NGE.

[Zarthaine]

Originally Posted by rhagz

Man, that is the most rose-tinted thing I have seen all day. Early EQ was more drama-rific than anything to date other than corp battles in EVE.

I'm glad you have the final say though, and are making Vanguard be so unappealing that it is tanking. Good business move there. You and 35k people that you deem worthy will surely have the time of your lives.. at least until they pull the plug or patch in the NGE.

Funny, I played since almost Beta EQ-1 and don't recall the "drama" that you speak of. I guess, like here, you had to be one of the "drama queens" to really be a part of all that, we tended to simply "Guild Remove" those who engaged in drama.

I also don't recall a "NGE" in EQ-1 or EQ-2? Ahhh...your reliving the "Drama" of SWG yet again that you seem to be unable to let go of.

The previous poster that you replied to spoke highly of the players in the game that I agree are rather enjoyable to be around. I guess in your world, that makes a game a waste of time. There is hardly a zone that I pass through where players don't buff and revive other players without being asked. There have been times where I wiped on a mob trying to solo in the area and got asked if I wanted some help in completing the quest. I have been given gear without ever asking by players just passing through a zone.

I guess I must also be seeing all this through my "Rose Tinted Glasses" and need to put on the "SWG NGE" ones that you have equipped.

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by Zarthaine

through a zone.

I guess I must also be seeing all this through my "Rose Tinted Glasses" and need to put on the "SWG NGE" ones that you have equipped.

Actually I don't give a flip either way about SWG or the NGE. The game was crappy before and it's still crappy after.. but yeah, you are looking back at EQ with clouded vision. The 'drama' I refer to was prevelant from day 1. People griping about camp spots, camp stealing, KSers, training, racing for spawns, etc. If you never saw any of this, then you probably should have spent enough time to move past orc 1 in the commonlands.

[ikaoma420]

Originally Posted by rhagz

Actually I don't give a flip either way about SWG or the NGE. The game was crappy before and it's still crappy after.. but yeah, you are looking back at EQ with clouded vision. The 'drama' I refer to was prevelant from day 1. People griping about camp spots, camp stealing, KSers, training, racing for spawns, etc. If you never saw any of this, then you probably should have spent enough time to move past orc 1 in the commonlands.

But, but, but, that's what made EQ so cool and separated the men from the boys.

[shrikke]

Originally Posted by ikaoma420

But, but, but, that's what made EQ so cool and separated the men from the boys.

It is a sad thing that this statement is the best you can come up with. Look. People like different things. If you like a PC game that plays like a console go knock yourself out in WoW. I tried it. I even liked it a little bit. I really enjoy a crowd and a game more like Vanguard SOH. If you don't like it then go play what makes you happy. Be happy you're in the 90%+ of gamers that like things simple and will always have new games to play! I wish I could say the same thing. Unfortunately playing WoW and batting low-brow insults of 1337 or other varieties arround is not what I enjoy. That is bad for me, good for you. My crowd is always going to be smaller. At least I know what I want and for now have a place to go and have fun. Good enough for me

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by shrikke

I really enjoy a crowd and a game more like Vanguard SOH.

There are crowds in Vanguard? Where?

[shrikke]

Originally Posted by rhagz

There are crowds in Vanguard? Where?

Rhagz, your incredible wit and the mutual respect you exude has earned you the first push of my ignore button ever outside an MMO. I wonder if they have forums somewhere with a minimum age and IQ requirement?

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by shrikke

Rhagz, your incredible wit and the mutual respect you exude has earned you the first push of my ignore button ever outside an MMO. I wonder if they have forums somewhere with a minimum age and IQ requirement?

Being quite old and having an IQ of 140, I am sure I could end up on any forum you think to restrict me from.

[Tanaril]

Originally Posted by Zarthaine

I also don't recall a "NGE" in EQ-1 or EQ-2? Ahhh...your reliving the "Drama" of SWG yet again that you seem to be unable to let go of.

Er, EQ2 LU10 or 13. Alright not quite on the NGE lvl but redesign of classes, redesign of the death penalty to the point its non-existant, resdesign of the crafting system..need i go on?

I think you have some sort of rose-tinted glasses on or you didnt play eq2 from go live.

[Gori]

Originally Posted by Tanaril

Er, EQ2 LU10 or 13. Alright not quite on the NGE lvl but redesign of classes, redesign of the death penalty to the point its non-existant, resdesign of the crafting system..need i go on?

I think you have some sort of rose-tinted glasses on or you didnt play eq2 from go live.

I have played EQ2 from live and still do. LU13 fixed a lot of broken mechanics; it did not take the game in a completely new direction. LU13 was good for the game as a whole.

You are also lumping changes into LU13 that took palce independently and at different times.

[ikaoma420]

Originally Posted by shrikke

It is a sad thing that this statement is the best you can come up with. Look. People like different things. If you like a PC game that plays like a console go knock yourself out in WoW. I tried it. I even liked it a little bit. I really enjoy a crowd and a game more like Vanguard SOH. If you don't like it then go play what makes you happy. Be happy you're in the 90%+ of gamers that like things simple and will always have new games to play! I wish I could say the same thing. Unfortunately playing WoW and batting low-brow insults of 1337 or other varieties arround is not what I enjoy. That is bad for me, good for you. My crowd is always going to be smaller. At least I know what I want and for now have a place to go and have fun. Good enough for me

Funny you say batting around low-brow insults of blah blah blah is not what you enjoy. Yet we were talking about all the drama that EQ live had with camp stealing and KSing groups training each other. When those things would happen the insults would start flying drama was all about and things became not fun. I guess when you say people like different things you like those things.

Should I assume you were like my old roommate. He used to try and farm the PBB with his wizard from the eyeballs in the gorge. At lvl 20 we went there and a group told us we couldn't have one half of the camp. That pissed him off to no end. He didn't train those people but I can tell you this. When he got to the point he could one shot those eyeballs with his wizard he controlled that camp and ruined a lot of peoples days and fun. As he said to me when I asked him why would you do that he replied "because it separates the men from the boys"

But interesting your response has nothing to do with what were talking about instead you basically attack me and tell me to go back to WoW. Hmmm I don't see where in my post I want an easy game. You think its sad? I think its sad you attack someone on a forum when the attack isn't even relevant.

[blade2040]

Originally Posted by ikaoma420

Funny you say batting around low-brow insults of blah blah blah is not what you enjoy. Yet we were talking about all the drama that EQ live had with camp stealing and KSing groups training each other. When those things would happen the insults would start flying drama was all about and things became not fun. I guess when you say people like different things you like those things.

Should I assume you were like my old roommate. He used to try and farm the PBB with his wizard from the eyeballs in the gorge. At lvl 20 we went there and a group told us we couldn't have one half of the camp. That pissed him off to no end. He didn't train those people but I can tell you this. When he got to the point he could one shot those eyeballs with his wizard he controlled that camp and ruined a lot of peoples days and fun. As he said to me when I asked him why would you do that he replied "because it separates the men from the boys"

But interesting your response has nothing to do with what were talking about instead you basically attack me and tell me to go back to WoW. Hmmm I don't see where in my post I want an easy game. You think its sad? I think its sad you attack someone on a forum when the attack isn't even relevant.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Wish i had a room mate like that. That's awesome dude.

[Tereval]

These threads are always interesting and I try to avoid doing more than reading them but what the heck.

Most of the replies in this thread have a creative detachment from reality, or a complete lack of comprehension there of.

Lets address a few diverse comments that have very simply answers rooted in reality.

1-Whose fault is it that Vanguard was released in its current condition?

Answer- Sigil's fault, 5 years and 30 million dollars is more than ample to have developed a full and functioning game. Any commentary about SOE, investors, Galactus, The Watchers Council, or any other mysterious outside force pushing Sigil to release early is irrelevant. Sigil failed to meet a realistic deadline in development, the deadline they had was quite generous by industry standards. Mistakes were made that cost time and money in the development process, unfortunately enough of them were made to put us in our current situation.
-Would it have been better to not release right around Burning Crusade? Yeah that one was a bonehead move and can't be blamed fully on Sigil but its a seperate but related issue from the state of the game.

2- If SOE buys this game will it mean the end of Vanguard as we love it?

Answer: Can you end something that really hasn't fully began yet? There got my sarcastic answer out of the way. In all likelyhood what will happen is Sigil will become a creative team on SOE's payroll, or a partnership arrangement which will amount to much the same thing. The creative control will probably remain mostly in control of Sigil but with final approval will go through SOE and likely SOE will have strong creative imput as well as the administrative capacity to keep Sigil on realistic deadlines.

3-SOE will turn it into another EQ2

Answer: No they won't they have clearly stated already that given the chance they would go back in time and stop EQ2 from being EQ2 and choose a seperate IP from Everquest. In an economic sense it would be mentally deficient for them to make it an EQ2 clone, and Sony is a big company that has shown they like to make money and are willing to be invested for the long term. If they purchase Vanguard/Sigil it will give them another game in their name with an alternate approach to their current games hence expanding their player market, hence attracting more customers, hence lining their pockets, hence making shareholders happy campers.

4-SOE is infamous for "insert complaint"

Answer: People have a weird definition of infamous. Most of these complaints are something Sony did once, and learned from. Sony made this mistake, and this mistake and this mistake, etc......
Yeah they made those mistakes because they were the pioneers of the genre, they were the first company to have the opportunity to make that mistake. NGE was a big screw up no denying it, Lucas Arts and SOE both hold blame for the debacle there as either could have enforced it or prevented it. Regardless it was one mistake, a big mistake that SOE and the industry as a whole has learned from.
- The irony of this "mistake" tangent is that many of the things people complain ruined EQ are the same features that are now applauded in newer MMO games. Whether or not you like the features many of them set new standards and created the MMO market as it is today. WoW borrows so heavily from EQ and DAOC that if you had the cite the references it would be a complete book on its own.
So you may view them as mistakes because they changed "your game" but some of those features further developed into fantastic trademarks of todays MMO gaming.
SOE was the pioneer company of the MMO genre, as a result they were the first to achieve great new successes and the first to make great big new mistakes. Other companies had the benefit of learning from their mistakes because they were followers.
To be fair Mythic was the pioneer of truly developed meaningful PvP content, and a couple other games probably did a little pioneering of their own just not to nearly the same degree.

5-SOE is the devil

Answer: No they are not, they do serve him but I believe the duties are mostly just ceremonial.

6-Matrix Online Crashed so if SOE buys Sigil Vanguard will crash too.

Answer: Making alot of assumptions aren't we. Matrix Online crashed because it was a crappy game with a bad IP. The few people who still play that game should be thankful it still exists at all as it really doesn't deserve to. SOE is wise to not invest further development into that trainwreck.

7-SOE will make all the creative decisions

Answer: That would be unacceptable to both Sigil and SOE. Why would they buy a game and then get rid of existing development staff and experienced workers just to hire their own and retrain them. It makes no economic sense in the end economic sense is what matters, no mindless examples of other companies doing the same thing please, those are those trademark mistakes we were talking about earlier that people/companies learn from.
-Sigil/McQuaid are heavily invested in this game emotionally and financially. They cannot and will not walk away, SOE will give them the manpower and financial backing to get it done right. As well SOE will be there to crack the whip and enforce deadlines, make sure big dreams don't destroy budgets and expand deadlines to the half a decade marker. Big dreams are great but if you don't produce anything dreams is all they are.

There thats a few maybe I will add more as the mood strikes me. Am I making alot of assumptions? yeah probably but every single person here is making a ton of them anyways, many with less reasonable background for them than I am so, its my turn.

Before anyone jumps on this potential assumption. I am not saying SOE buying/partnering with Sigil will be a wholey good thing, some bad could certainly come from it, but the potential for good that could come from it is strong.

SOE joining in certainly does not deserve to be treated like the coming of the MMO anti-christ, pretty sure the MMO anti-christ will be coming from a Mac developed game anyways.

[Kurron Nye]

Originally Posted by Tereval

These threads are always interesting and I try to avoid doing more than reading them but what the heck.

Most of the replies in this thread have a creative detachment from reality, or a complete lack of comprehension there of.

Lets address a few diverse comments that have very simply answers rooted in reality.

1-Whose fault is it that Vanguard was released in its current condition?

Answer- Sigil's fault, 5 years and 30 million dollars is more than ample to have developed a full and functioning game. Any commentary about SOE, investors, Galactus, The Watchers Council, or any other mysterious outside force pushing Sigil to release early is irrelevant. Sigil failed to meet a realistic deadline in development, the deadline they had was quite generous by industry standards. Mistakes were made that cost time and money in the development process, unfortunately enough of them were made to put us in our current situation.
-Would it have been better to not release right around Burning Crusade? Yeah that one was a bonehead move and can't be blamed fully on Sigil but its a seperate but related issue from the state of the game.

2- If SOE buys this game will it mean the end of Vanguard as we love it?

Answer: Can you end something that really hasn't fully began yet? There got my sarcastic answer out of the way. In all likelyhood what will happen is Sigil will become a creative team on SOE's payroll, or a partnership arrangement which will amount to much the same thing. The creative control will probably remain mostly in control of Sigil but with final approval will go through SOE and likely SOE will have strong creative imput as well as the administrative capacity to keep Sigil on realistic deadlines.

3-SOE will turn it into another EQ2

Answer: No they won't they have clearly stated already that given the chance they would go back in time and stop EQ2 from being EQ2 and choose a seperate IP from Everquest. In an economic sense it would be mentally deficient for them to make it an EQ2 clone, and Sony is a big company that has shown they like to make money and are willing to be invested for the long term. If they purchase Vanguard/Sigil it will give them another game in their name with an alternate approach to their current games hence expanding their player market, hence attracting more customers, hence lining their pockets, hence making shareholders happy campers.

4-SOE is infamous for "insert complaint"

Answer: People have a weird definition of infamous. Most of these complaints are something Sony did once, and learned from. Sony made this mistake, and this mistake and this mistake, etc......
Yeah they made those mistakes because they were the pioneers of the genre, they were the first company to have the opportunity to make that mistake. NGE was a big screw up no denying it, Lucas Arts and SOE both hold blame for the debacle there as either could have enforced it or prevented it. Regardless it was one mistake, a big mistake that SOE and the industry as a whole has learned from.
- The irony of this "mistake" tangent is that many of the things people complain ruined EQ are the same features that are now applauded in newer MMO games. Whether or not you like the features many of them set new standards and created the MMO market as it is today. WoW borrows so heavily from EQ and DAOC that if you had the cite the references it would be a complete book on its own.
So you may view them as mistakes because they changed "your game" but some of those features further developed into fantastic trademarks of todays MMO gaming.
SOE was the pioneer company of the MMO genre, as a result they were the first to achieve great new successes and the first to make great big new mistakes. Other companies had the benefit of learning from their mistakes because they were followers.
To be fair Mythic was the pioneer of truly developed meaningful PvP content, and a couple other games probably did a little pioneering of their own just not to nearly the same degree.

5-SOE is the devil

Answer: No they are not, they do serve him but I believe the duties are mostly just ceremonial.

6-Matrix Online Crashed so if SOE buys Sigil Vanguard will crash too.

Answer: Making alot of assumptions aren't we. Matrix Online crashed because it was a crappy game with a bad IP. The few people who still play that game should be thankful it still exists at all as it really doesn't deserve to. SOE is wise to not invest further development into that trainwreck.

7-SOE will make all the creative decisions

Answer: That would be unacceptable to both Sigil and SOE. Why would they buy a game and then get rid of existing development staff and experienced workers just to hire their own and retrain them. It makes no economic sense in the end economic sense is what matters, no mindless examples of other companies doing the same thing please, those are those trademark mistakes we were talking about earlier that people/companies learn from.
-Sigil/McQuaid are heavily invested in this game emotionally and financially. They cannot and will not walk away, SOE will give them the manpower and financial backing to get it done right. As well SOE will be there to crack the whip and enforce deadlines, make sure big dreams don't destroy budgets and expand deadlines to the half a decade marker. Big dreams are great but if you don't produce anything dreams is all they are.

There thats a few maybe I will add more as the mood strikes me. Am I making alot of assumptiosn? yeah proably but every single person here is making a ton of them anyways, many with less reasonable background for them than I am so, its my turn.

Before anyone jumps on this potential assumption. I am not saying SOE buying/partnering with Sigil will be a wholey good thing,some bad could certainly come from it, but the potential for good that could come from it is strong.

SOE joining in certainly does not deserve to be treated like the coming of the MMO anti-christ, pretty sure the MMO anti-christ will be coming from a Mac developed game anyways.

A nice post but I am not sure you really said any thing new. It seems more of a summary of others points.

Which really is SOE does what makes the best business sense for itself at any given time. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesnt. Just like any other company. (folks hate SOE because they act like a BUSINESS, and folks, specially gamers like the 'FIGHT THE POWER' feel that comes with bashing SOE.)

The gaming anti-christ has already appeared, and yes it orginated from the Mac..its called Halo (from Bungie, formerly the kings of the small Mac gaming world) and its firmly in the grips of the real Devil (Microsoft)