[Jammu]

Yes, I am one of the ones who finds crafting needlessly maddening, but the rumors of nerfing crafting by making it easier and less dependent is the wrong way to go.

You would be wise to look at the experience of EQ2 - at launch there were thousands and thousands of cries that it was too hard, people were dependent on each other for supplies, blah blah blah. They ended up nerfing the crap out of it now everyone has 6 max level crafters on every account.

Personally, I find the implementation of complications to be unduly frustrating, but I have lived with it through 20 levels of crafting. I just plod along until I have had enough. But really, the only problems with crafting atm are the plat dupes and the fact that drops are far too frequent. The game is awash in money, and the money is pretty much useless because so much loot drops you can pretty much buy whatever you want for a song.

Fix the plat dupes. Make stuff a little more rare. Once there is a demand for a bit of cash people will take up crafting and fill some of the niches that are currently open. But until cash means something, people will prefer to grind away on work orders, or bypass crafting altogether.

My 2c.
Regards.

[Qandow]

Originally Posted by Jammu

Yes, I am one of the ones who finds crafting needlessly maddening, but the rumors of nerfing crafting by making it easier and less dependent is the wrong way to go.

You would be wise to look at the experience of EQ2 - at launch there were thousands and thousands of cries that it was too hard, people were dependent on each other for supplies, blah blah blah. They ended up nerfing the crap out of it now everyone has 6 max level crafters on every account.

Do not remember any cries of it was too hard. Do remember a really borked sytem of interdependency though and that had to go. There were quite a few of us who had multiple maxed crafters long before it got even easier. In typical SOE fashion, they used a sledge hammer when a scalpel could have done the job. It was all for the best in the end though since any type of grind was ultimately pointless after they nerfed crafted gear into oblivion.

Interdependency never really works for the majority of crafters even when designed well and some thought was put into interdependency in Vanguard so it is not as bad as it could be. Naturally works well for large guild crafters but flat out sucks for unattached players or players who play at odd hours. Still frustrating as hell when you cannot find someone to make what you desperately need and let's face it, there is nearly zero incentive for anyone to make any real items in Vanguard if they can avoid it due to no experience for doing so.

Way too much grind in Vanguard crafting atm. It's is simply boring and repetitive to the extreme. With crafted gear slowly being relegated to the junk heap anyway, here also there is no justification for such an extreme grind. I'll take a grind if at the end of the day I can make some really worthwhile gear. No way I'm enduring a massive grind to make horseshoes or bags.

Crafter advancement should be in lock step with the adventuring side. When it takes twice as long to level a crafter the system is retarded. They always stated it would take as long to level a crafter to max level as it would an adventurer. The never said anything about twice as long.

[Jammu]

Originally Posted by Qandow

Do not remember any cries of it was too hard. Do remember a really borked sytem of interdependency though and that had to go. There were quite a few of us who had multiple maxed crafters long before it got even easier. In typical SOE fashion, they used a sledge hammer when a scalpel could have done the job. It was all for the best in the end though since any type of grind was ultimately pointless after they nerfed crafted gear into oblivion.

Interdependency never really works for the majority of crafters even when designed well and some thought was put into interdependency in Vanguard so it is not as bad as it could be. Naturally works well for large guild crafters but flat out sucks for unattached players or players who play at odd hours. Still frustrating as hell when you cannot find someone to make what you desperately need and let's face it, there is nearly zero incentive for anyone to make any real items in Vanguard if they can avoid it due to no experience for doing so.

Way too much grind in Vanguard crafting atm. It's is simply boring and repetitive to the extreme. With crafted gear slowly being relegated to the junk heap anyway, here also there is no justification for such an extreme grind. I'll take a grind if at the end of the day I can make some really worthwhile gear. No way I'm enduring a massive grind to make horseshoes or bags.

Crafter advancement should be in lock step with the adventuring side. When it takes twice as long to level a crafter the system is retarded. They always stated it would take as long to level a crafter to max level as it would an adventurer. The never said anything about twice as long.

I agree...the problem is zero incentive. Not only because of no experience for items, but also zero incentive for money.

As for leveling adv vs crafter - some of the difference is (perhaps) unintended - you can't compare aoe missive group experience to anything else. That is, I believe for the most part adventure exp is way too fast but only if you min max the experience which a lot of people do.

And I tend to agree that the crafting curve is a bit harsh. However, I think it is the only sphere in VG atm that is anywhere near working as intended. It's not the difficulty I object to in crafting - it is more the psychology of it is reversed what it should be (constantly frustrating as opposed to constantly rewarding) if that makes any sense.

Regards.
Jammu

[Tonev]

Originally Posted by Qandow

Do not remember any cries of it was too hard. Do remember a really borked sytem of interdependency though and that had to go. There were quite a few of us who had multiple maxed crafters long before it got even easier. In typical SOE fashion, they used a sledge hammer when a scalpel could have done the job. It was all for the best in the end though since any type of grind was ultimately pointless after they nerfed crafted gear into oblivion.

Interdependency never really works for the majority of crafters even when designed well and some thought was put into interdependency in Vanguard so it is not as bad as it could be. Naturally works well for large guild crafters but flat out sucks for unattached players or players who play at odd hours. Still frustrating as hell when you cannot find someone to make what you desperately need and let's face it, there is nearly zero incentive for anyone to make any real items in Vanguard if they can avoid it due to no experience for doing so.

Way too much grind in Vanguard crafting atm. It's is simply boring and repetitive to the extreme. With crafted gear slowly being relegated to the junk heap anyway, here also there is no justification for such an extreme grind. I'll take a grind if at the end of the day I can make some really worthwhile gear. No way I'm enduring a massive grind to make horseshoes or bags.

Crafter advancement should be in lock step with the adventuring side. When it takes twice as long to level a crafter the system is retarded. They always stated it would take as long to level a crafter to max level as it would an adventurer. The never said anything about twice as long.

I started this long post that got erased simply because you said everything I wanted to say about the crafting system in Vanguard.

I'm currently adv level 25 and crafting level 23 and I agree the grind is crazy maddening and the quests are too dependent on other crafters (to effectively do quests my level I have to have a tailor and artificer the same level as my BS/AS) which is rediculous.

The quest system period for crafting is a joke and needs to be overhauled reworked. I think what they should have done is do it just like with quests, pick up a quest from a NPC and craft certain items within your level (not above it) to get XP, with a reward that is actually useful and helpful towards your chosen sphere.

Have WO around for the hardcore who wants to grind 1 million Iron pry bars but also have many quests that I can grind as well.

[tdewey10]

1. Crafters need to get XP from making items for players. The "you've mastered a recipe no more xp for you" mechanic is insanely stupid.

2. Crafters (and Diplos) need 2 double XP weekends -- some time in the next month to even out the adventurer double XP weekends.

3. Yes there needs to be much more interdependence between the spheres. Crafting recipes should be a mix of learned, from WO and world drops. Right now adventurers need crafters, but crafters don't really need adventureers. Ultra-rare materials should only be available from world locations. [Similiarly there should be world drops of diplo cards and many more dungeons where diplo -- from low diplo at say Stronghold to high diplo at Nusibe -- is useful].

[Malosar]

Originally Posted by tdewey10

1. Crafters need to get XP from making items for players. The "you've mastered a recipe no more xp for you" mechanic is insanely stupid.

I think the best way to achieve this would be to give the crafter xp when the item is equipped. The BOE flag prevents multiple xp already. That way it prevents crafters from just making items constantly then selling them to vendors, deleting them, whatever. Of course people will just try and give stuff to alts or friends to wear to get the xp, then remove the item, but they still have to go through the process of making the items and sending it to other characters (and making a further money sink if mailed) so they've earned their xp?

I guess there are a lot of caveats with giving xp more than once for making items, which is why I assume we don't get it.

[Gecon]

Originally Posted by tdewey10

2. Crafters (and Diplos) need 2 double XP weekends -- some time in the next month to even out the adventurer double XP weekends.

You are not serious, are you ? The double xp weekends of adventurers is now MONTHS ago. Double xp weekend for crafters now is really stupid.

And besides, crafting a whole weekend will be a sure way to assert I never want to do it again.

[shrikke]

Originally Posted by Gecon

You are not serious, are you ? The double xp weekends of adventurers is now MONTHS ago. Double xp weekend for crafters now is really stupid.

And besides, crafting a whole weekend will be a sure way to assert I never want to do it again.

I guess I am a causual crafter being only at 26. It's really too early to tell for me, but if I had to guess right now, I would say crafting seems to be getting more dificult. I don't want this game nurfed. I also do not want to have this game turn into eq1 where no one new comes to play from ANY demographic once the power-gamers start driving off the casual gamers. Then the crying starts becuase of server merges. Well, there would not BE any need for server mergers if all of my friends except me had not been driven off becuase there are no <65 players to group with, and no one want's to "catch up" by grinding or paying money for someone else to" have their fun" leveling and flagging there brand new toon.

PS-Those of you making a fortune on stuff because your already 40+ in crafting; get your job security some other way, like crafting raids or camps or something like that. DO NOT start making it harder and harder for newer players to advance just so you can keep competition away. You also drive people out of crafting, like me, real close to dumping since last patch, VERY frustrating.
Don't make crafting harder, don't make crafting easier, that simple

[mrbandersnatch]

Im a sub 20 crafter and the XP rate has seemed fine compared to adventuring so far. That may change

What REALLY hurts for crafting compared to adventuring IS the lack of crafting XP quests. A few times now adventuring Ive found a repeatable quest with a worthwhile XP reward and just ground it out until it wasnt worth it anymore (while lfg that is). Not an option as a crafter (unless you count WO which I dont).

Oh and certain items it would be nice to get XP for each time we made them - consumables in particular I am thinking of here.

[Socratic]

Originally Posted by shrikke

PS-Those of you making a fortune on stuff because your already 40+ in crafting; get your job security some other way, like crafting raids or camps or something like that. DO NOT start making it harder and harder for newer players to advance just so you can keep competition away. You also drive people out of crafting, like me, real close to dumping since last patch, VERY frustrating.
Don't make crafting harder, don't make crafting easier, that simple

Crafting hasn't been getting harder, what exactly are you talking about? If anything it's gotten easier as the months have gone by. Then again I liked it best when gear was broken and it took real effort to get C's on mod WOs. I'm not advocating they make it harder than it is, I just don't see where they have done so already or are planning to. Your statment just seems like paranoia.

As for crafting quests all you have to do is buy something from another crafter, that generally costs very little to make. Is your rep so bad on your server that no fellow crafter will make something for you?

The only real adjustment I see worthwhile to quests is that they have more of them. Right now there really is no progressive crafting quest line that pulls you along as you level, other than the teir quests for recipes. It would be nice to see a quest line that yielded good experience and moved you around the world doing orders for various NPCs hidden within large cities or even barren landscapes. That's just flavor though, not really any fundamental change to the sphere.

Comps on trivial recipes should have their math changed so that they appear less often, but some people advocate removing them entirely which I don't agree with.

For the person who said crafting wasn't rewarding I must say I don't understand. I've been rich since my mid teens as an Armorsmith. Server merges should also help this, as crafters will have more of a market for their goods. Some crafts have better payoff than others, but all of them have something to sell.

[shamusmacgowan]

Originally Posted by tdewey10

1. Crafters need to get XP from making items for players. The "you've mastered a recipe no more xp for you" mechanic is insanely stupid.

2. Crafters (and Diplos) need 2 double XP weekends -- some time in the next month to even out the adventurer double XP weekends.

3. Yes there needs to be much more interdependence between the spheres. Crafting recipes should be a mix of learned, from WO and world drops. Right now adventurers need crafters, but crafters don't really need adventureers. Ultra-rare materials should only be available from world locations. [Similiarly there should be world drops of diplo cards and many more dungeons where diplo -- from low diplo at say Stronghold to high diplo at Nusibe -- is useful].

1) Nope, I can agree with increasing the reward for the first time mastering, and maybe an small increase for WO's, but allowing them to gain xp every time they craft an item is just asking for a flooded market. Hell all the carpenters would be level 50 in a week just grinding out planks.

2) Definately no double xp weekend.

3) I can agree with 3, although seriously, I've never gotten an ultra-rare anywhere except for adventuring. As for diplo, that would be fine, but should probably be brought up where it'll be noticed.

[Poldano]

Originally Posted by shamusmacgowan

1) Nope, I can agree with increasing the reward for the first time mastering, and maybe an small increase for WO's, but allowing them to gain xp every time they craft an item is just asking for a flooded market. Hell all the carpenters would be level 50 in a week just grinding out planks.

2) Definately no double xp weekend.

3) I can agree with 3, although seriously, I've never gotten an ultra-rare anywhere except for adventuring. As for diplo, that would be fine, but should probably be brought up where it'll be noticed.

Hey, as a mineralogist I turn just about every bit of common stone I can get into bricks, and every bit of rare stone into cornerstones, and they all sell, so I really doubt the market would be saturated if I got some experience for it. Right now I have to make a tradeoff decision, whether to continue to advance myself in crafting or to devote my time to making stuff for customers, because I can sell just about all of some things I make.

I don't think just making things should qualify, the items would have to be used in some way (usage XP or use XP). Housing materials are easy, because these are one-use and no-resale (at least for now), so experience could accrue upon placement into a plot. Soulbound items have a similar one-time accrual point, which is the first time they are equipped. Freely-tradeable items are problematic with usage XP, as I've said in another thread.

Work orders are no less repetitive than standard recipes, so crafters' main way of getting experience is by grinding out the same thing over and over again. Usage XP would not be all that much different, and would have the disadvantage to the crafter of being deferred. The trick to balancing usage XP with WOs is to make the WOs slightly more preferable for experience and faction. They are already somewhat more predictable. Perhaps a "matching" policy would work, i.e., accumulated usage XP matches WO and quest XP, effectively doubling it, until the crafter's pool of usage XP is exhausted.