[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by rhagz

The single biggest shift in the game was between beta 2 and 3.

So at least I got you to move a step back eh?

We saw it then, but the planning for that change happened earlier...

So that makes the changes even earlier.

Suggest any timing to you?

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by Atoyota

So at least I got you to move a step back eh?

We saw it then, but the planning for that change happened earlier...

So that makes the changes even earlier.

Suggest any timing to you?

You are still under the assumption that SOE took over as soon as they stepped in. I am going with the assumption that those changes were in the works already.

If the game had been amazingly awesome in beta 2, changing publishers wouldn't have changed anything. The game sucked then. It had like 50 peak players. Changes came because the vision was archaic and refused to acknowledge the shift in the market.

[taurus999s]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ....

Finally, the idiotic flop of a team known as Sigil, is getting some proper management in place.

[anagain]

Originally Posted by Finja

they should all (Sigil and SOE) stop EQI, EQ II and vanguard and work all together on a real good new game, perhaps EQ3.

It will never be what EQ was because no company has the guts to make a fully immersive and seriously challenging game anymore. Too many players want an easy ride nowadays.

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by anagain

It will never be what EQ was because no company has the guts to make a fully immersive and seriously challenging game anymore. Too many players want an easy ride nowadays.

CCP disagrees. EVE is one of the 'hardest' games out there.

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by rhagz

You are still under the assumption that SOE took over as soon as they stepped in. I am going with the assumption that those changes were in the works already.

If the game had been amazingly awesome in beta 2, changing publishers wouldn't have changed anything. The game sucked then. It had like 50 peak players. Changes came because the vision was archaic and refused to acknowledge the shift in the market.

I was'nt there, but I have heard from some that were that the combat changes were a huge compromise.

Putting the two events together leads me to my assumption, and the real truth may never be known.

I see Sigil having gone out on a branch, MS cutting them off, running to SOE which insisted on change in design before they signed on, and the rest is history. That in a nutshell is how I see the events leading up to what may be announced this week.... SOE taking the reigns.

Sigil bit off too much and got swallowed up, they took big steps instead of baby ones, which means a lot more time in developing, but insures the creative control that may have made for a much better game in the end.

People laugh at Darkfall (adventurine), but i think they are a lot smarter than what Sigil has managed with Vanguard.

[Moocow]

I think it would be great if SOE were to take over: Look at what they did with EQ2.

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by Atoyota

I was'nt there, but I have heard from some that were that the combat changes were a huge compromise.

Because combat in beta 2 sucked. It was slow and tedious. All of half a dozen people liked it. When WoW launched and people saw just how damn fun it was to have fast and responsive combat, it caused a huge shift in what people would expect from a new game.

You are right about one thing, I don't think we will know the truth unless someone writes a tell-all book. That would be a best-seller I am sure. (hint hint Brad, need to get out of debt? Write that book!)

[Multiplex]

Come on SOE... gobble them up!!!

/crossfingers

[Potential]

Hey Sony.


You can't polish a turd.


(but apparently you can sell them).

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by rhagz

Because combat in beta 2 sucked. It was slow and tedious. All of half a dozen people liked it. When WoW launched and people saw just how damn fun it was to have fast and responsive combat, it caused a huge shift in what people would expect from a new game.

You are right about one thing, I don't think we will know the truth unless someone writes a tell-all book. That would be a best-seller I am sure. (hint hint Brad, need to get out of debt? Write that book!)

Well some will never get it, but others do.

WoW does WoW better than anyone else (naturally)

SOE already has an EQ2, so what does that make Vanguard? EQ3?

I dont think VG will die, not saying that... but it will change with this, and if that's good or bad I can't say. I suspect it will be bad at least in the next 6 months, but after that... anyones guess.

[DCpunk]

I guess this is what Atoyota has harping on me about all morning in PMs.

Meh, who cares, really? I should care, but I just can't anymore. At least we know to expect silence from SOE instead of expecting Brad to "manage expectations" only to have him hem and haw around a point 2 months too late and never really address anything.

Seriously. I like Brads ideas, but his follow-through is about as lacking as it gets. He might wanna consider changing his name to Brad McMilquetoast.

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by Atoyota

WoW does WoW better than anyone else (naturally)

SOE already has an EQ2, so what does that make Vanguard? EQ3?

So why would you think SOE would have pushed Sigil into making VG into a EQ2-like game if they already had one?

I think the idea that WoW is a better WoW so don't do anything they do is a very bad philosophy.

WoW didn't say 'okay let's not do anything like EQ did' but instead took the good things and tried to eliminate the bad. That's how you evolve. You work on your strengths and make them stronger, and you minimize your weaknesses.

[Kamira]

Originally Posted by Speaker

At the same time, many of us gave up and left EQ2 once they made travel super easy and for all practical purposes removed the death penalty, completely ,removing any risk vs reward. Out of a guild of 150 that started playings EQ2, not one member plays the game now.

If SOE takes over and make similar changes to Vanguard like they did with EQ2, I won't stick around.

You have been spewing this garbage since back in Beta! When are you going to learn to shut up?

Get a new argument because death penalties don't make an MMO, genius. You and your love for punishments and preaching how that's where the FUN lies. You're so out of touch with how MMO's thrive it's not even funny anymore.

You and your friends from beta are the reason why this game has been held back for so long. Causing drama, cursing out Nino and everything else you did to stir discontent on the drawing boards. As if you even had that right or were important enough to listen to. HINT: You're not! I would have thrown you out from day ONE! Instead of concentrating on how to breathe live into the game, you breathe death into it at every turn.

When are you going to get it through your thick head that people aren't signing up to escape the oh-so-bad challenge of not dying!!! They sign up to experience a virtual world at a reasonable pace that finds a thrill at each step. If there's no thrill to be found when you're character is alive, your masochistic death penalties are sure to cinch their decision to push the cancel button.

Your threats to quit have been long and tired. JUST DO IT ALREADY!

[Teek]

I just find it funny that some people still refer to SOE as "proper management"

EQ was king. They changed it and gave the crown to WoW.

EQ2...well changes have seemed to make it better, but during the course of making numerous changes...well.

SWG, geez. CU some of the playerbase said ok. NGE, well, the player base exploded, riots in the streets of theed. playerbased forced server crashes. And they still RUSHED it out.

MxO, is that game still around. Well, at least they got the DC Comics IP from it I guess. Since that was the goal anyway.

DC Comics. ROFL. You all know it's going to blow.

And now vanguard. So they make drastic changes. hmmmmm, lets see make it harder? noooooo. Lets make it more WoWsy and easier. Thus again, just like all the other attempts, they fail. WoW people will keep playing WoW because it's finished, their friends our there, and why play a knock-off of the original.

A year or two Smed talked about SOE's business plan. Which was to host as many IP's as possible. basically trying to corner the market by hosting IP's, then buying them out.

Like I said, SOE takes over you will see the following.

1. Game becomes easier (more WoWsy).
2. Playerbase leaves in droves, they did not come here for an easy game.
3. SOE can't understand why WoW subs aren't coming over.
4. More changes in 6 months, (see SWG NGE)
5. Playerbase bottoms out, with only die-hards remaining.

The only difference is with SWG people had invested years into their character before the changes happened, making it that much harder to cancel due to the time invested and the friendships developed.

With Vanguard it's only been months. And many people have been burned by SOE before. Whole guilds would not join Vanguard after it was announced SOE would only be HOSTING the game. Think of the number fo people who will leave if it's announced SOE is RUNNING the game.

Regardless, for all you who are heralding SOE as the savior I say good luck. And I hope they fix the game into something you will enjoy. As for me, SOE's vision of an enjoyable game seems to be at odds with what I find enjoyable in an MMO. And because of that, I will be leaving if the announcement comes...as will all but a select few of my my RL friends.

I guess the majority of our guild who said that we shouldn't start vanguard because SOE was involved were right, and they would end up getting control.../sigh.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Teek

hilarious dramatization

LOL...... good stuff right there. The sky is darkening, fire and brimstone, hell on Earth, etc.....

with SOE right at the helm. You just don't see comedy of this quality much any more

[Loampounder]

From Yesterday...

Originally Posted by Atoyota

yeah we will most likely get a long explanation from Brad how all of this was inevitable but good for the game!

Just more spin...

I still doubt it's about Sigil selling Vanguard, but with a warning from Brad like that it sounds like just as bad or just as much of a failure.

I would not quit over SOE's increased involvement. I will quit over Sigil's failure. While not lying, they certainly have not stuck to their ideals and promotions over the past two years while "managing expectations".

[HolyAvengerOne]

Wow. Ever since they announced the launch date, this has just been an avalanche of more bad news and more bader news. And now this.

[HolyAvengerOne]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

[...]
I would not quit over SOE's increased involvement. I will quit over Sigil's failure. While not lying, they certainly have not stuck to their ideals and promotions over the past two years while "managing expectations".

Yup, pretty much where I stand, at this moment.

I've found myself less and less involved in the game lately, with the direction its been taking, and I've found myself logging in even more rarely.

Not quite sure what's been holding my finger from the cancel button... maybe years of having my expectations managed

[Teek]

Originally Posted by Rayne

LOL...... good stuff right there. The sky is darkening, fire and brimstone, hell on Earth, etc.....

with SOE right at the helm. You just don't see comedy of this quality much any more

Possibly, but at the same time, except for the prediction, name one thing said that isn't true...