[BigPapaBruno]

Depending on the classes you engage you can take out numerous people. Yesterday I molested a 46 dk and a 30 something bard. A 50 warrior couldn't kill me without a lowbie sorc chain mezzing me at level 42. You just have to use your roots, snares, and stuns. Taking out the ones you will kill the fastest helps in a situation where there are no mobs involved just straight up pvp.

[shermhead]

lol im a 44 war cleric and pwn all melee in the game... it was like that before the patch and now I just kill them much quicker.

Dont know if you guys ever rolled thinking "ima be a goog pvper!" but, you guys arent.. soo sorry.. do you see me crying on the boards everytime a druid insta kills me with starfall or I get put to sleep by a sorc for 30 minutes until his pals can run to the zone and kill me?

[BigPapaBruno]

lol im a 44 war cleric and pwn all melee in the game... it was like that before the patch and now I just kill them much quicker.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________


That is the truth. The only melee that can kill me sometimes are rangers that speed hack and sometimes they are bouncing around everywhere on the screen. I have no idea wtf it is but they warp to a different location and I can't root them. This only happens with rangers usually.

[warakus]

Clerics having to get chains off is no different then other melees. DKs have the same issues in PVP with the chains we have and people moving or stunning or whatever happens. The thing is we dont have the duality that clerics or other healers have... for instance shamans can DPS just as good or better then alot of melee DPS classes especially in PVP where like was said people jump around alot. They can actually do more. Clerics now melee on par with or out melee tanks yet still heal like clerics.

Im not saying its just clerics, its just another hard hitting item to add to the list for the melees in this game that leaves us in the dust. Now imagine they add the 40% damage rule... what healer would ever die in pvp to less then a group or stacked DPS classes focus firing.... vs one class.

It seems like mana regen and use is just nuts. It is very hard to run a healer out of energy. They simply outlast us even without the dps... now they can melee us to death with very few heals.... not sure how this can be fixed without upsetting the whole PVE game.

We cant just pick on healers imho. Not without looking at sorcs and metoer shower or druids with 2 sec recast starfalls. Lots can be done to make PVP better but I think until we address energy regen in some form nerfing damage would make healers even more insane.

I hope they find a way to make it a tad better without nerfing fun classes like clerics shamans.

[BigPapaBruno]

I'll tell you where Sigil went wrong initially. Damage in this game was way too high to begin with (My level 10 warrior hit for 900 damage). It is extremely hard to balance out the damage in a game when you are doing ridiculous ammount of damage like this. The damage in this game is exactly like it is in WoW. If the damage was on a lower scale like on EQ it would be a ton easier to make classes balanced and happy in pvp. By happy I mean it actually takes some coordination and using some kind of tactic to take down your opponent and not just some ridiculous burst damage. That's all it is right now is who does the most damage. Mitigation, defense, and resists go right out the window.

To be honest, I don't think they can fix the pvp in this game for the specific reason I just stated. The damage is just way to high. They would have to completely restructure the entire game to make this pvp balance. Expect it it just be a fast paced pvp game like WoW, especially since people are just getting better gear.

[Celidya]

Soloing 5 or 6 dots is in no way a critera on being overpowered. In fact most of the classes can do it as long as they have enough time to do so, which is, let's face it, not very often since it takes a while.

For the record, i have a 46 druid. I killed a 6 dots 2 lvl higher than me at lvl 33, then a 6 dots 5 lvl higher than me (that means, a PURPLE 6 dots) at lvl 37. Then about any 6 dots i can see as long as he's outside of a dungeon, adds do not matter much, only the room to kite.

I have a 41 DK, i can kill 5 dot named my lvl or higher, and i don't even have very good gear (mostly rare crafted gear since i only solo), i bet i could take a 6 dots if it's not immune to everything and i have better gear, and it's my level or below. Tanks have much more trouble against mobs higher level due to the miss rate.

My 40 ranger can kill 5 dots mobs 4 lvl higher, and probably would kill 6 dots too although i don't try, with the mobs pathing bug it's too boring and dangerous.

My 38 sorc could take 5 dots too and maybe more if i wasn't too lazy and i could go farm for the speed mask, levitation cloak, and willing to spend one hour running in circle and casting a spell once in a while to kill a mob with a ton of HP while waiting for mana regen.

And the list goes long, while i don't have all classes past lvl 35 yet, they almost all have the tools to kite. And if you can kite, you can kill about anything. Sure, some classes do it easier than the others: heals, levi, buffs, dots, pets are a bonus. But give a run speed buff to a monk and they could solo 6 dots with their shurikens.

If you stop grouping all the time and just follow the others to get exp and loot and try to do things by yourselves, learn the tricks and how to be effective at soloing, then you'll quickly realize how overpowered are most of the classes as long as you play them well. But now of course if you go with a 2 handed on your DK trying to deal more dps than the mob you'll die even against a 4 dots, if you're trying to CV the mob to death you'll die with your sorc, and whatever... Just play smart and everything is doable. Well, everything the computer can handle. I could kite 50 mobs of the same lvl at once with my ranger and kill them, but my computer died when i broke the 25 mark, although i managed to kill them all i had about 2 fps and it took me 15Min due to the terrible lag.

This is not to say clerics are more overpowered or less than the others, i don't know yet, my cleric is only lvl 15 for now and nothing amazing. In fact i doubt it will ever be overpowered, at best it can do what other classes can do, in a slower way. No speed, no high mana regen, no levi, no very efficient ranged attacks. By far not the most overpowered class around.

[VChateau]

My main is a BM. Any healing class has to be killed multiple times to effectively be killed once due to how easy it is for a healing class to get back to full or near full health. If healing were brought down to 50% in PvP it would make a huge difference because during that time damage could be taken by the healer trying to heal them self. Let say that a Healer whlie casting a heal that heals for 70% of total hp takes in 25% of total hp in dmg. Thats a net gain of 45%. If said heal was for 35% (half) then the net gain would be 10% (just an example w/ random #'s). Clerics prepatch post 40 pvp game was like WoW paladins. Also, mitigation doesn't really come into play until post 40. I think that changes will be made to the functions of mitigation.. especially since mit caps have been reached for quite a while now. If I had my way I would make dmg10%, heals 10%, and reduce mana and end cost by 50% for PvP for more epic longer larger battles.

[BalduranFaerun]

Originally Posted by Celidya

Soloing 5 or 6 dots is in no way a critera on being overpowered. In fact most of the classes can do it as long as they have enough time to do so, which is, let's face it, not very often since it takes a while.
.

yeah only if you can one hit an entire zone then it is overpowered or what are you talking about?!

same level:
3dots should have been a small group encounter or solo like 50% chance to survive
4dots only small group
5dots full group
6dots one or more full groups

so they should nerf the crap out of each class who can solo such mobs
and if all class can do it nerf all classes
or increase the power of mobs dramatically which would be nearly the same as nerfing classes


-cc immunity timers would be the first step (actual cc time * 3 for duration)
-much higher resists on all mobs from 3-6 dots infact 6 dots should have a near 90% chance to resist

then to the cleric I think the stances should have a 2-5minute cooldown
this way the tradeoffs are really tradeoffs and not a joke ...

oh damn I need to heal and I m in war stance ahh I have macroed stance dance to my heal awesome no tradeoffs at all

in pvp I would like to see much higher interrupts
daoc was a little to much where every what so ever abiltie would interrupt casting
but I would say let all higher meele dmg interrupt casting
and perhaps a 50% chance on higher cast dmg or ranged dmg to interrupt

this would open the game for much better tactical gameplay and increase the overall fun

[warakus]

I seriously dont see how someone can level a char to 15 then speak like they are an authority on the subject based off THAT experience.

The way I have seen it is that it changes from different levels some classes might rock at 20 then they become weak at 28 when opposing classes get new better spells abilities then it swings back again... What really counts is how it stacks at 50.

50 a druid can kill just about any class pretty fast. My vite would have been a 10 second timer on SF... but then they would never kill any healers... kind of unfair that way but vs anyone else more then fair.

50 Sorc and meteor storm... I mean COME ON! what were they thinking allowing it to hit so hard ( this one spell will wipe a group of 50s ) stun and dot... all crits unless the sorc is silly. Kind of unbalancing to be able to kill a whole group with one spell (yes it takes 6 seconds but with invis working like stealth... well you know)

To me allthough killable those are the 2 bad boys at this point.

Bard invis.... BMG buffs..... Cleric melee heals and plate.... its hard to know where to begin. The fights are too quick.... but if we nerf dmg then healers will be even more over powered.... if we nerf heals then will that open people to being griefed on mobs? Like I said... to me it isnt the size of the heals.. its the quantity one healer can spew out during a fight.... Very rarely at 50 do healers who heal in PVP and conserve energy run out of energy... then they can run off regen it back quick and get back in the fight. I think we need to slow down regen rates and make pvp combat last until someone is dead or they chunk so you cant regen or put a 2 min timer once out of combat range. (Please also fix the combat thing when your opponent dies so we can stealth regen invis ect)

Then if energy regen is nerfed.. we might can nerf damage so a healer has to choose dmg or heals in a fight because they cant do alot of both.

I have to say also I was kind of suprised people from the old eq team let classes start out young as power houses... i think this also kind of made things worse since everyone wants to improve... at level 10 hitting melee for 500 or more then at 20 for 1200 so on and so forth made the whole thing crazy. Giving mobs too many darn hit points was a bad move too.... because players have to hit hard like that to get anywhere.... nothing new or dynamic about that.

[Seven_PRX]

Clerics are somwhere in the middle of the PvP ladder. The top 4 classes are all casting classes:

Necro, Shaman (Phoenix), Sorceror & Druid.

Why people are yelling Nerf Clerics I don't understand, as Cleric don't go around killing people in 5 seconds, while the above classes can & do :-)

[Seven_PRX]

Quote by Sigil Class Lead Venge:

I've worked with different clerics, each from the different affinities, and for those claiming they can dps close or more than a warrior. I would have to say that you are fooling yourself. This goes to dk, paladin, or warriors. I have not seen any hard proof. Yes the war cleric stance looks "nice" but as far as making them a tank is foolish and down right incorrect. Their stance may give them 30% damage, block, and what not. However even with it, they still do not come close to a warrior's dps, not even remotely. The stance is nice, but not all clerics have it and its optional and must be chosen out of 4 other options. Besides, ours has no penalty to our primary job, their's do.

So, no nerf needed for Clerics, it's official.

[Gecon]

Originally Posted by Skilganon

I got owned hard by a 39 cleric today, and I am a 42 DK.

So what ? DRKs get owned by healers in Vanguard. Nothing new.

Originally Posted by Skilganon

To make it worse in my last encounter with him, a 43 ranger saw us fighting and decided to give me a hand.... and guess what the result was... i went down and the ranger went down shortly after, I think the cleric lost 1/3 bubble of health at the most taking on the two of us....

Why hasnt that ranger just silenced the Cleric with a bow, making him easy prey ?

Originally Posted by Skilganon

Atleast when fighting necro's and sorcs i can win some, or i can loose some, but I didn't see anyway possible of being able to take this cleric down.

Which is something clerics cant do, for all I heard.

Originally Posted by Smedy

SOE has taken over, what the hell do you expect.

Everyone knows SoE took over AFTER the Patch 1835.

Originally Posted by Cobalty2004

They have cool HoTs and reactives though

Except that Clerics have no reactive heals. Thats what Shammys get, instead of HoTs.

Originally Posted by Cobalty2004

I thought druids can one shot people.

Druids aren't healers in Vanguard.

Ive suggested this on other forums, and Ill suggest it here as well, they need to reinstitute a reuse timer on Rout and Bloodhammer attack series.

I second that part. Also there should be again a timer on Maul of Divinity, our group buff finisher.

Originally Posted by Hanzou_Masamori

As for PVP, I play a 44 Monk and a 40 Cleric on Varking and I will say one thing- PVP is completely unbalanced at the moment.

Yeah, thats wellknown.

[Gecon]

Originally Posted by Seven_PRX

And about soloing 5/6 dots: tell me how it's done. At lvl 49 I can solo 46/47 4 dots, but it takes a while, and can be dangerous.

Uber gear, and probably also a PvP skilling (+5 Str, +4 Dex, +5 Vit instead of the usual +5 Vit, +5 Wis, rest on Str/Dex/whatever).

[david99]

Originally Posted by Seven_PRX

Clerics are somwhere in the middle of the PvP ladder. The top 4 classes are all casting classes:

Necro, Shaman (Phoenix), Sorceror & Druid.

Why people are yelling Nerf Clerics I don't understand, as Cleric don't go around killing people in 5 seconds, while the above classes can & do :-)

The problem is cleric's are HEALERS. They are not meant to kill people in 5 seconds (neither are phoenix shamans, but I have never seen them do what you are claiming).

Cleric's have a -80% healing debuff to healing effectiveness. They also wear plate. They also have arguably the best heals and buffs in the game. They also out DPS other healers, ESPECIALLY rakuur/turgin shamans - where cleric's regular hits hit much harder than their CRITICALS and are comparable to some DPS focused classes.

So why would anyone chose a healing class other than a cleric in the current state of the game?

[BalduranFaerun]

exactly
desciples should have been the healer with the max meele dps
then close behind them rak/tur shamans and then with a huge gap talking about atleast 200% avg dmg dif clerics

and no buffing the other classes to the same op status isnt good mobs are curently much to easy anyway killing 4 dots solo is just silly
I´m all for swinging the nerf bat and swing it hard and not only clerics other classes need it too

there is just no room for improvement left (for example for future addons) what should they be about killing 100dot lvl 100mobs solo with your lvl 50?

[warakus]

I have learned not to take Venge seriously. He also doesnt have any proof to dispell the idea that a cleric can out dps a warrior.

Also it isnt just about clerics being tanks... allthough capping mit and evasion I dont see why they cant tank. With the current content monks can tank, not as well but they can tank RI which is about as hard as it gets atm.

Also there is PVP... why should a cleric do more damage or even close to the same dmg as a tank in PVP?

Reality is I have an alt healer... Tanks nowadays are rare.... very rare and I have had clerics tank more often lately then a tank class and even see them hold aggro better ( level 30 ish).

Sorry .. with the cleric boost and the easy caps....Id say I would consider a cleric for a tank.. hell we used em as offtanks before the patch... what makes you think they cant tank now? Hell they are the best offtanks... no heals required!

[Seven_PRX]

Well, Monks are gimped, that's true.

But the other DPS classes do more DPS than a Cleric.

Mind: i say DPS classes, Defensive Tanks aren't meant as DPS classes obviously, hence the name Defensive. War/Pal/DK aren't suppoed to deal great amounts of damage - Rangers/Rogues/Monks/Bards are.

[Gecon]

Originally Posted by david99

Cleric's have a -80% healing debuff to healing effectiveness. They also wear plate. They also have arguably the best heals and buffs in the game. They also out DPS other healers, ESPECIALLY rakuur/turgin shamans - where cleric's regular hits hit much harder than their CRITICALS and are comparable to some DPS focused classes.

1. Correct, we got a new nifty debuff for -80% healing with the new patch. And if you want to Clerics to be tanking healers, you have no reason to complain about it at all. If someone has low damage output, a healing power debuff is an ability that fits perfectly.
2. Yes, we wear plate. It has been said often, but I will repeat it for your: that Clerics wear plate does NOT mean that they get any close to the defense of a real tank. In fact, offensive melee warriors are at least as hardy as Clerics. The big advantage of Clerics is actually that they can use SHIELDS, but you dont even bother mention that.
3. No, we are not the best healers in the game. Clerics and Shamans are a lot easier to manage than Disciple and Bloodmage, but all four healer classes can take the job of the main healer about equally well unless you gimp them in their equipment or skilling.
4. No, we are absolutely not the best buffer in the game. Any mage you tell that will roll on the ground laughing loudly and .. you get the idea. We are second best, and very close to the first, warrior buffers after Bear Shaman, thats it. We get no nice utility buff like the Shamans Speed or the Bloodmages Levitate / Immunity to Poison Symbiotes, EVER, either.
5. Rakuur Shaman could kill two mobs when I could kill one, before the patch. I doubt I'm THAT much ahead of them, now, though I would have to have another duo party with one to really check. In any case Shamans need a review about their damage and their many bugs, anyway.

Originally Posted by BalduranFaerun

desciples should have been the healer with the max meele dps
then close behind them rak/tur shamans and then with a huge gap talking about atleast 200% avg dmg dif clerics

1. What kind of maths is that ? If I do 200% less damage than someone else, I heal the mob for the same damage that the other guy hurts it.

2. Would you care to explain why Clerics are supposed to deal less damage than Bear Shaman ? What advantage exactly do we get over Bear Shaman that would justify that ?

Originally Posted by warakus

I have learned not to take Venge seriously. He also doesnt have any proof to dispell the idea that a cleric can out dps a warrior.

He has reviewed your claims extensively and couldnt verify them. Its not his task to assure you. Even less he's supposed to hang on your lips and believe everything that comes out.

Originally Posted by Seven_PRX

Well, Monks are gimped, that's true.

But the other DPS classes do more DPS than a Cleric.

Uh, that is AFAIK VERY outdated information. I have been assured in the offensive melee subforum here that Monks deal good damage now, compareable to Ranger, but of course they lack on the utility side in comparison.

Originally Posted by Seven_PRX

Mind: i say DPS classes, Defensive Tanks aren't meant as DPS classes obviously, hence the name Defensive. War/Pal/DK aren't suppoed to deal great amounts of damage - Rangers/Rogues/Monks/Bards are.

Actually, my new lowlevel Warrior deals impressive amounts of damage.

I dont even buy it that Cleric stands a chance to outdps any tank class. Its just the opposite of what I see ingame. And I am not even a pure healbot Cleric; I wear mostly armor from quests and drops, therefore mostly tank armor, and both Str and Dex are quite high.

[Seven_PRX]

@Gecon:

I said Defensive Fighters are not SUPPOSED to do much damage. In reality they can be doing a whole lot of course :-) But the idea of a Defensive Fighter is not doing a lot of damage, but is taking a lot of damage.

[Cobalty2004]

Originally Posted by Seven_PRX

@Gecon:

I said Defensive Fighters are not SUPPOSED to do much damage. In reality they can be doing a whole lot of course :-) But the idea of a Defensive Fighter is not doing a lot of damage, but is taking a lot of damage.

Hey and the idea for a cleric is to do large amounts of healing if you want to play by that logic.

And your War stance and the DPS you get from that can be argued thats what O-stance for tanks is, so where is the logic in that?

You forget tanks CANNOT DO DAMAGE AND HOLD AGGRO TANK AT THE SAME TIME.

CLERICS CAN IF THEY STANCE DANCE, WHICH WAS PROBABLY NOT INTENDED IN THE DESIGN/