[BigPapaBruno]

I see care bears...

They are everywhere...

And they post on this forum

[warakus]

Originally Posted by Gecon

1. Correct, we got a new nifty debuff for -80% healing with the new patch. And if you want to Clerics to be tanking healers, you have no reason to complain about it at all. If someone has low damage output, a healing power debuff is an ability that fits perfectly.

!!Of course you think it does.. I would have given this to Necros or DKs... but obviously these debuffs go to Pallies and Clerics. You will spew anything to defend your class.!!

2. Yes, we wear plate. It has been said often, but I will repeat it for your: that Clerics wear plate does NOT mean that they get any close to the defense of a real tank. In fact, offensive melee warriors are at least as hardy as Clerics. The big advantage of Clerics is actually that they can use SHIELDS, but you dont even bother mention that.

!!Whats a 50 cleric in crafted gear cap mit and block at? Best gear level 50? DO they cap lower then 65% on mitigation? Be interesting to know that.... I mean if they can hit the same caps... doesnt that put them on par with a tank? I imagine if a cleric used all tank gear he would be on par with tanks and probably DPS as good or better and still have heals... not as good mind you but still far beyond that of other tank classes.!!

3. No, we are not the best healers in the game. Clerics and Shamans are a lot easier to manage than Disciple and Bloodmage, but all four healer classes can take the job of the main healer about equally well unless you gimp them in their equipment or skilling.

!!I agree here all healing classes seem to heal about the same.. BMGs really good because they have low aggro heals for tanking more then one mob. !!

4. No, we are absolutely not the best buffer in the game. Any mage you tell that will roll on the ground laughing loudly and .. you get the idea. We are second best, and very close to the first, warrior buffers after Bear Shaman, thats it. We get no nice utility buff like the Shamans Speed or the Bloodmages Levitate / Immunity to Poison Symbiotes, EVER, either.

!!Ok buffs. You can buff everything but energy regen.... If asked on any toon what buffs I would want it would be cleric every time. Thats just me though. I could care less about haste in this game... the dex is sweet from Rak shm but I prefer buffs that up my top end damage over haste. !!


5. Rakuur Shaman could kill two mobs when I could kill one, before the patch. I doubt I'm THAT much ahead of them, now, though I would have to have another duo party with one to really check. In any case Shamans need a review about their damage and their many bugs, anyway.

!!This isnt a comparison between healers.. all though I dont think other healing classes tank as well but the can utlity and dps on the side... but so can clerics.!!



1. What kind of maths is that ? If I do 200% less damage than someone else, I heal the mob for the same damage that the other guy hurts it.

2. Would you care to explain why Clerics are supposed to deal less damage than Bear Shaman ? What advantage exactly do we get over Bear Shaman that would justify that ?

!!Plate armor.!!



He has reviewed your claims extensively and couldnt verify them. Its not his task to assure you. Even less he's supposed to hang on your lips and believe everything that comes out.

!!No he hasnt. Your right he should not. I just think this was thrown out with out any testing really taking place. I mean if hes the war class lead shouldnt he be concerend if clerics can reach the same mit/block cap or hold better aggro? Isnt that sort of infringing on a role the 3 tanks are allready fussing over? Thats just me... Like the mit cap being hit allready.. I brougth it up and got some vague lame answer. Ahh well.!!



Uh, that is AFAIK VERY outdated information. I have been assured in the offensive melee subforum here that Monks deal good damage now, compareable to Ranger, but of course they lack on the utility side in comparison.



Actually, my new lowlevel Warrior deals impressive amounts of damage.

!!and my low level cleric can PK 3 equal level warriors at once.../shrug!!

I dont even buy it that Cleric stands a chance to outdps any tank class. Its just the opposite of what I see ingame. And I am not even a pure healbot Cleric; I wear mostly armor from quests and drops, therefore mostly tank armor, and both Str and Dex are quite high.

Clerics can now do many things.... DPS/Heal/tank/Untility/debuff and most classes cannot fit into all those catigories. They arent on the low end in any of these catorgories by any means.... it just seems that things are going a bit too far. Imagine Paladins getting heals that differed from clerics by the amount of difference between the mitigation maxed out of a pally and a cleric... is there a difference? seem ok now? I mean sure they arent clerics.. but they heal good enough to do any content... sort of like a clerics tanking ability now.
Now since this is the PVP forum.... and clerics take good dmg ..... do good dmg and are juggernaughts in pvp.... what do tanks and melee dps classes do against them? Run? DPS like that in PVP big hard hits is what counts... now a healing block debuff on top of that? Id say your just on the defensive here.... spew away man... we know what its really like int he PVP game and this makes clerics too powerfull. You defending it doesnt change anything... and yes there are other overpowered abilities classes.... this didnt help.. it made it worse.

[warakus]

Originally Posted by BigPapaBruno

I see care bears...

They are everywhere...

And they post on this forum

I would Pk you Bruno..... but I see your a cleric and youll own the crap out of my 50 DK thats if you know how to pvp... oh wait I will kill you! No danger there!

[BigPapaBruno]

Originally Posted by warakus

I would Pk you Bruno..... but I see your a cleric and youll own the crap out of my 50 DK thats if you know how to pvp... oh wait I will kill you! No danger there!

I will send you a tell later tonight in game sweet tits

Until then.. I have to work.

[warakus]

Ok Ill be on my cleric. Name is Tankeatereplacer

[Jebus]

-80% healing debuff should NOT work in PVP
Cleric's should have LESS DPS than other HEALERS because of the fact they GET PLATE. But no, lets give them better DPS as well. Leave them as one of the best healers, buffers and utility - yeah, thats real balanced!

[Aristotle]

The devs did a horrible job of class balance.

No amount of cleric defending their turf will change the fact that they are overpowered by a long way.

They should be thrown in the defensive tank class subset now and balanced accordingly. Paladins have buffs and minor heals (on a timer) so naturally have less dps than the other two tanks. Clerics have even better buffs than a paladin and unlimited heals , so guess where the dps for a cleric should go........way down for balance.

If SOE is in charge then they will want subscriptions and they cannot get that if there is only 5 playable classes in game at present(druid, necro, sorc , hyatet shaman and cleric), because people dont only want to play those classes, some actually want to play melee classes.

[WarZephyr]

you might want to add rangers to that list of playable chars, they are pretty damn good now, in fact just got 3 shotted by one before i could even run away.

[Seven_PRX]

You forget tanks CANNOT DO DAMAGE AND HOLD AGGRO TANK AT THE SAME TIME.

??? Uh? Tanks do fine damage wise and hold aggro... Not sure which game you are playing, but it can't be VG.

Cleric's should have LESS DPS than other HEALERS because of the fact they GET PLATE. But no, lets give them better DPS as well. Leave them as one of the best healers, buffers and utility - yeah, thats real balanced!

Ask any Cleric: even though we wear plate, we have shitty Mitigation. My level 35 DK, in pretty crappy armor, has almost twice the Mitigation of my lvl 50 Cleric in a lot better armor...

Of course tanks are supposed to have good mitigation, but the truth is, is that the mitigation of Clerics suck. 1-3 dots it's not a problem, but 4*+ and we take hits for a lot of damage.

[Ybini]

This must be a higher level feature then, because at lvl 29 it takes me _forever_ to kill anything higher level than me (3-dots).. Then, the stupid mob will run away and heal up while I chase it around like an idiot, until it heals enough to stay still and I go at it again and if I'm lucky get a chain on it that dps's enough to drop it.

Maybe the cleric got a bunch of lucky chains on you.

[BalduranFaerun]

the problem is a dps specced war cleric (well atleast with I have experiance with this specc)
with cap str and str gear and good amount of dex they deal the same dmg as offensive fighters (400%chains without recast timer)
but still have much more other stuff which the offensive fighters have given up (except ranger for some unknown reason) in order to be damage dealers
ie: heals, good buffs, castable root

now lots of offensive fighters especially monks ask themself why did I roll an offensive tank if I could have rolled a cleric with str,dex spec and deal nearly equal damage?

my monk for example only has one chain which is atm better then a 400% chain which is thousend fists and its on a 1 minute timer

I group regularly with a cleric and he deals more damage then I do except when I land thousend fists(although he uses only a one handed weapon which is 2 dps better then one of my two claws...)

now that simply isnt correct so either monks damage chains should be increased to equal 800% dmg chains or clerics meele dmg needs to be nerfed...

p.s.: and no this isnt only a pvp issue for those nay sayers telling everyone that the classes will not be balanced around pvp its a pve issue too

[Way]

No healer ingame should be able to out-dps ANY of the offensive fighters ! period !

the mere fact that clerics can 1) absorb 3 initial hits , 2) get invulnerability , 3) root that hardly breaks , 4) no reuse timers on the high dps chains ? wtf ? 5) AWESOME heals 6 ) excellent buffs amongst other things should make them currently the most broken class ingame.

Clerics out-dps me as a ranger in pvp ... 1 on 1 .. working as intended im sure.

If you wanna level up fast and kill ANY encounter ingame - just have 6 clerics - the end.

Alas - by the time this gets fixed, all those people who farm bindstones and invuln+hearth when they're in trouble will have 50k + infamy. Not that infamy means anything.

[WarZephyr]

At least you rangers are doing better than Bards or monks. You can take down a Bard or Monk in 2-4 hits.

I agree with what your saying, but if i can get a cleric down to about 3/4 of his health im pretty sure u have a better chance then me.

Right now class balance is horrible. My bard has no perks and the worst damage in game and it sucks.

I see a cleric and i run. i see a sorcerer and i run, i see druid and i run, i see a ranger and i run, i see anything and i run.

that is shit pvp.

once this game gets somewhat balanced and the merge happens, i will most likely not quit this game for years.

[Jebus]

Originally Posted by Seven_PRX

??? Uh? Tanks do fine damage wise and hold aggro... Not sure which game you are playing, but it can't be VG.

Ask any Cleric: even though we wear plate, we have shitty Mitigation. My level 35 DK, in pretty crappy armor, has almost twice the Mitigation of my lvl 50 Cleric in a lot better armor...

Of course tanks are supposed to have good mitigation, but the truth is, is that the mitigation of Clerics suck. 1-3 dots it's not a problem, but 4*+ and we take hits for a lot of damage.

But you still have MUCH better mitigation than any other healing class, with BM's being a close second. Couple that with the best DPS of any healer and arguably the best healer to boot - you have one overpowered class.

That's not even mentioning the fact clerics get -
War shields, lvl 3 version absorbing 5 hits!!
Invulnerability
Stuns
-80% healing effectiveness debuff (i win button vs other healers)
And access to stun immunity

Whoever thinks cleric's are NOT overpowered is plain and simply defending their OP class.

[Seven_PRX]

1) absorb 3 initial hits , 2) get invulnerability , 3) root that hardly breaks , 4) no reuse timers on the high dps chains ? wtf ? 5) AWESOME heals 6 ) excellent buffs amongst other things should make them currently the most broken class ingame.

1) It's 2 actually with the default trained 1, 4 with the highest learned one. but that takes 400+energy to cast. But it's a nice spell, in PvP mainly, in PvE it's not a big deal.

2) Invul, well, it sounds nice, but it's 10 seconds only, and is on a 10 minute recast timer. I almost never use it, and when I do, it's usually not enough to save me, as you can't do anything when you use it (ie cant run, heal, fight).

3) Huh? Yes, we have a root. And it's just like any other root. It even last quite short.

4) Well, on mty DK, my chains also don't have a re-use timer, so I don't see the problem.

5) Yes, we have good heals, but I have seen how a good specced BM can heal, and his healing is better.

6) Our Buffs are ok, but so are the buffs of many other classes.

There is nothing broken about the Cleric. You have to remember, IF you fully spec DEX + STR, your healing will be very limited due to low VIT + WIS. So you certainly won't be a good group healer. Also, please remember we have a low mitigation, meaning we can't tank (take hits).

I do think it's strange that our melee chain is 3 long (4 if you count the opener). They could take away the last ability in the chain, making our chain as long as the 'normal' 'long' melee chains that DKs have.

[BalduranFaerun]

Originally Posted by Seven_PRX

...lots of other stuff...

There is nothing broken about the Cleric. You have to remember, IF you fully spec DEX + STR, your healing will be very limited due to low VIT + WIS. So you certainly won't be a good group healer. Also, please remember we have a low mitigation, meaning we can't tank (take hits).

the point is you still have healing and all the other nice toys for pvp while offensive fighters esp monks have given up nearly every single bit of utilitie/abilties to deal more meele dmg then other classes - but now they DO NOT
so why roll a monk (other then rp reasons)? you can roll a str/dex cleric
and have the same offensive capabilities and heals/buffs a root a stun on top of it?

THIS IS THE PROBLEM offensive fighters now have

p.s.: you still have higher mitgation then any offensive tank due to heavy armor
p.p.s.: every person who is a bit aware of class balance should be able to realize the major problem which this implies or not?

[Seven_PRX]

Originally Posted by BalduranFaerun

THIS IS THE PROBLEM offensive fighters now have

That says it all: it is not a problem with Clerics, but with certain other classes lacking things. So people shouldnt yell "Nerf Clerics", but should be asking for some additions to their class.

p.s.: you still have higher mitgation then any offensive tank due to heavy armor

Not really, I duo a lot with a Ranger, and he can take hits as well as I do. And actually a BM, in Cloth, in their defensive stance, has a higher Mitigation than a Cleric in Plate. Go Figure :-))) Our Mitigation USED to be nice, but in one of the earlier patches, they lowered it a lot.

p.p.s.: every person who is a bit aware of class balance should be able to realize the major problem which this implies or not?

Clerics aren't overpowered or the most powerful class out there. Look @ Druids, Sorcerors, Shamans (Phoenix), Necro's... Now THOSE are classes who can literally wipe out groups, 1-2 shot people, etc. You will never ever see a Cleric do such things :-) So, if they are looking @ class balancing, they should FIRST look @ Pet Damage and Spell Damage, and then they can come look @ a WAR Cleric...

[BalduranFaerun]

well of course there is always the option of increasing monks and bards dmg output

although these two classes are more in line with the actual power classes should have gotten in the "vision" of the game... well I guess that was long ago given up
e.g. can barely kill 3 dots even 4 levels below etc

so in light of the system sigil wanted to make
2 dots solo
3dots small group
4dots small group/group
...
all classes except monks, bards and rogues are overpowered atm and need to be nerfed
IF this system is no longer desired by soe then these offensive fighters need a huge boost (200% dmg increase to be able to kill 3 dots same level and stand a 50/50 chance against 4dots)

I am aware of the problem with caster althoug this could be easily fixed by giving higher resists/hp for con which would also make this stat more desireable
the thing why lots of offensive fighters cry out loud atm is that clerics are stealing now in our turf which is high meele dmg :-P

[Kaltor]

Originally Posted by Jebus

That's not even mentioning the fact clerics get -
War shields, lvl 3 version absorbing 5 hits!!
Invulnerability
Stuns
-80% healing effectiveness debuff (i win button vs other healers)
And access to stun immunity

ward sheild III is 4 hits not 5

stun immunity is only with preservation affinity which I have not heard anyone complaining about their DPS being to high (just war and death)

[Ybini]

Originally Posted by Seven_PRX

That says it all: it is not a problem with Clerics, but with certain other classes lacking things. So people shouldnt yell "Nerf Clerics", but should be asking for some additions to their class.

Yeah I'd agree here. Just bump up the mitigation on the tanks they're sposed to be tough anyway, the complaint is only against a subclass of clerics anyway.