[Frozboz]

Originally Posted by Cas

So tell me, if this is so "abstract", why do you have a problem with limiting the scaling for the ability?

I love how many different phrases for "nerf" you come up with, shaman class lead. "Limiting the scaling", that's a new one. Anyway..

As it stands now, the spell converts a percentage of HP to mana. This means the individual bloodmage decides how much he should sacrifice other stats such as SDF, INT, crit chance and so on in order to suppliment sufficient mana from HP based around his individual playstyle. For some, it's not that much, if any. For a small minority of others (healbots) it's as much as they can get. I'd say I'm in the middle, and that's where I like it.

You're proposing (from your post on my poll at vgbloodmages) a flat return regardless of HP (you use 900 mana as a baseline). So if this happens, no matter what I do, I cannot improve this spell whatsoever. In its current state, the bloodmage controls how much mana he gets back. If the change is made, the class (and by extention the game) loses a lot of its 'customizable' feel.

Here's an example: In certain situations, I feel like I can't keep up being the solo healer in a group in say, RI or deep in NN. When that happens, I have emergency +hp gear: a few slots with 125+ hp. This weakens most noticably my crit chance (in turn, less insta-heal Blood Tributes, less blood union overall since I am straight-healing, and less damage), but boosts return on MT enough so I have the mana to run straight heals and keep the group alive. It's a choice any blood mage can make. It's good for the game, and good to have that feeling like I can *do* something about a problem that develops. It's also good to know that the class is more complex to play. The changes you propose will take away some of that complexity.

If you come back and claim all groups should have two healers, or no healer should be solo healing in those places, then well... I have to disagree.

Originally Posted by Cas

You need to look up the words twist and spin in the dictionary.

The shaman class lead insulting someone's intelligence. Statements like these coming from someone in an official position no longer shock me like they used to, sadly.

Originally Posted by Cas

Your mitigation is "below average" for a BM

Based on what data set? How many geared BM +mitigation numbers in unfocused stance (like I posted) have you seen, @ L50? I'd bet this month's mortgage the number is less than 5. And I'd also wager the over/under on "average" is 17%.

Originally Posted by Cas

Btw, look at that same profile linked above. See the 2800 AC in that screenshot? Feel free to post a Disciple's screenshot with 2800+ AC self buffed.

Oh yeah, I forgot. The shaman class lead thinks all healers should be equal. This keeps getting scarier every day, that someone with your outlook on the game has such influence on how it's developed.

Originally Posted by Cas

In fact you aren't even disputing the fact that MT's potential and scalability will eventually trivialize mana management, as it can already be done at this early stage of the game.

Round and round we go. Potential again? You have posted numbers such as 7.7k and in the same paragraph called for 'adjustments' or 'scalability' or whatever veiled term you want to use for "nerf them so shamans don't suck as bad". People will read this thread and come away with those numbers thinking this is normal. It's not. It's not even realistic. But yes, it can be done and for that matter alone, hey, let's nerf the ability into uselessness (like some of our symbiotes). You KNOW this is how SOE fixes things, if you've been around any length of time. That 900 mana return mark you're proposing will be more like 500 when they get done with us.

[Tashim]

Originally Posted by PerritoBites

Can BMs really only focus on one stat? Can they just go for SDF and ignore any HPs and ViT? I think it is safe that you can focus on 2 stats and a minor one in this game. You get enough points as you level to max out 2 stats and add a couple of points on the third stat. How much you put in your third stat depends on what your race is. But, race points are not the only way to get stats.

Then you go into armor (which can be swapped depending on your role). Armor never focuses on one stat only. Usual armor focuses on two to three stats. I do agree that light armor has less focus than medium armor on healing, just like medium armor has less focus on DMG. But that is just now, and we have to see what the future will bring when raids come out. Then add other classes buffs on top of that...

Btw, I am glad that you don't want to scare the newbs off the game, but you and I know that SV is not the place for that. Perhaps you could have given him a link to those forums? Either way, his questions were answered before this discussion started. If he had any other questions, I am sure we would answer them.

No one stat is sufficient in and of itself.
I've seen three schools of thought for bloodmages.
Offensive:
One, is to maximize their taps, focusing on int, sdf, accuracy, spell damage, and crit rate (caster-orientated) this seems to be the most efficient for bloodmages, they are effective solo, and in a group. The main reason why many bmg choose to play that class is to be different and challenging, and this build does it. They're light on hitpoints, and they use their hitpoints nonetheless. Good for people that like to live on the edge.

Healing:
One, is to maximize their direct heals, focusing on vit, and hf. Its alot harder for a bmg to get good healing focus compared to other healers, but it is doable. This build is not really safer, as it builds more agro, but it is always able to heal. It lacks solo power, but it is good for bmg who regularly group with people much higher level than they are, who fight mobs even higher still. When lifetaps aren't viable due to mob level difference, then direct heals are all that is left, and this build focuses on getting the most for them.

Hitpoints:
Lastly, is a build to focus on hitpoints exclusively. con, and hp gear, to maximize the benefits of MT. With a focus on hitpoints, a great deal of potential is sacrificed, for both offensive and healing. This build usually tries to scrape by with whatever it can find, but tending to lean on healing focus; I've yet to see gear sufficient for a solid hp build with good caster mods. Having less healing focus that a defensive build, this build relies on energy regeneration from hitpoints. This can last longer than most, but at the cost of smaller, less-efficient heals. Quantity over Quality. This build is even less solo-friendly than a healing build.


Overall, a bloodmage has more choices of useful stats than any other class, and if all stats were maxed, a bloodmage would gain the most effect from them. As the gear in game is not sufficient to max all stats, bloodmages must choose. Those choices however, all come with a significant cost.

[Cas]

Originally Posted by Tashim

Until the day comes, however, where we have raid-content, and raid drops, and classes have significantly more than they do now, there are far more pressing issues in the game compared to this. If anything, I'm inclined to let healers be overpowered, just because we, the rest of the classes, *need* them.

I totally agree and if it was for me, I'd be easily able and willing to wait another 6 months for the changes. However, as most of us have seen it happen in other games, if an ability is changed(nerfed) 6 months down the road, more people will be a) negatively affected by such a change b) argue that the class has been designed around a "bug" and that a change would "destroy" the balance.

Anyway, I saw a post on Vgbloodshaman by Soulreapper indicating that MT's returns might have been altered, so I will look into it today and see if that's the case.

[Frozboz]

Originally Posted by Cas

Anyway, I saw a post on Vgbloodshaman by Soulreapper indicating that MT's returns might have been altered, so I will look into it today and see if that's the case.

I'm pretty sure it's always been that way. I'll test it when I get home from work.

[Cas]

Originally Posted by Frozboz

I love how many different phrases for "nerf" you come up with, shaman class lead. "Limiting the scaling", that's a new one. Anyway..

And yet, no matter how many phrases I come up with, you don't seem to understand the difference. Looks like Tashim understands why "limiting the scaling" is a much more fitting expression than "nerfing" in this context.

You're proposing (from your post on my poll at vgbloodmages) a flat return regardless of HP (you use 900 mana as a baseline). So if this happens, no matter what I do, I cannot improve this spell whatsoever. In its current state, the bloodmage controls how much mana he gets back. If the change is made, the class (and by extention the game) loses a lot of its 'customizable' feel.

Let me ask you one question:

Does your mana expenditure increase after you have hit 50? Because if your mana requirements are "fixed"(which they are, as your spells will keep costing the same amount of mana regardless), why is there a need for your mana regeneration to increase more than any other healer's can?

The shaman class lead insulting someone's intelligence. Statements like these coming from someone in an official position no longer shock me like they used to, sadly.

You are trolling.

I told you to look up the terms you used, as they were inappropriate in the context you were using. If you call taking numbers posted by a member of any community and putting them into a valid equation, without projection or conjecture of any kind, "twisting" and "spinning", then I am sorry but you have a clear issue with the definition of the terms in question. And looking them up will certainly help.

Oh yeah, I forgot. The shaman class lead thinks all healers should be equal. This keeps getting scarier every day, that someone with your outlook on the game has such influence on how it's developed.

See, you can save yourself looking up those 2 words referred to above, because this, my friend, is twisting and spinning per definitionem. I never said all healers should be "equal".

Round and round we go. Potential again? You have posted numbers such as 7.7k and in the same paragraph called for 'adjustments' or 'scalability' or whatever veiled term you want to use for "nerf them so shamans don't suck as bad".

And you keep going. I want the BM class nerfed so the Shaman "don't suck as bad". Yep, I have been made.

People will read this thread and come away with those numbers thinking this is normal. It's not. It's not even realistic. But yes, it can be done and for that matter alone, hey, let's nerf the ability into uselessness (like some of our symbiotes). You KNOW this is how SOE fixes things, if you've been around any length of time. That 900 mana return mark you're proposing will be more like 500 when they get done with us.

You give way too much credit to what I can get done. If you think I have been spending my days by pointing devs at how overpowered MT is, feel free to ask Avair and you will see that the discussion has come up twice. Once when I was informed that MT was supposed to calculate off the base HPs and and once more, when I reported to him that it does indeed account for HP buffs, based on the numbers I had come up with and the numbers *you* provided, after I asked for verification on your boards.

Never again, did I directly push for a nerf to MT, because I am professional. Thanks.

[PerritoBites]

Originally Posted by Gecon

I stat my Bloodmage +2 Vit, +4 Wis, +4 Int, which probably is the most common skilling, and I dont see why I would throw points away into Con, like, ever. Even at level 50 1 point of Con only gives 3.5 HP. So what would be the point to put points into this stat ?

Drops on all levels, as well as T1 and T2 crafted armor, focus into one stat only.

Are you telling me your armor has +int in one piece only? By one stat you mean one effect? (aka +sdf, or +healing) i don't recall ever wearing any piece of armor that only had 1 stat. At lv 50, the pieces have more than 3 stats on it :/ I did a random search and I came up with this armor link: Gorgaluk Swamps That is 6-7 stats per piece.

[Tashim]

Originally Posted by Cas

I totally agree and if it was for me, I'd be easily able and willing to wait another 6 months for the changes. However, as most of us have seen it happen in other games, if an ability is changed(nerfed) 6 months down the road, more people will be a) negatively affected by such a change b) argue that the class has been designed around a "bug" and that a change would "destroy" the balance.

Anyway, I saw a post on Vgbloodshaman by Soulreapper indicating that MT's returns might have been altered, so I will look into it today and see if that's the case.

As I play a class that is designed/balanced around a few "bugs", I understand that completely. Even minor changes are usually met with a healthy dose of negativity. There will always be changes however, no game like this can remain static.

From what I can tell, MT returns energy based on current hp, not max. So, if your hp isn't at max, you're not getting optimum efficiency with it. Most bloodmages tend to hover around 80% to 90%. A bloodmage with full health, is a lazy bloodmage.
Regardless, I don't see bloodmages as being more effective than other healers, even in fights that last 30+ minutes.

[Cas]

Originally Posted by Frozboz

I'm pretty sure it's always been that way. I'll test it when I get home from work.

Not according to BM friends of mine and Vgbloodmage members. Also, the numbers posted by Soulreapper don't really match the "base HP" change theory.

[Frozboz]

Originally Posted by Cas

And yet, no matter how many phrases I come up with, you don't seem to understand the difference. Looks like Tashim understands why "limiting the scaling" is a much more fitting expression than "nerfing" in this context.

And Tashim doesn't play a healer, so his objectivity is probably better than yours or mine. I've answered you with an example as to why the scaling shouldn't be limited, but I'll do it again:

Originally Posted by Cas

Does your mana expenditure increase after you have hit 50? Because if your mana requirements are "fixed"(which they are, as your spells will keep costing the same amount of mana regardless), why is there a need for your mana regeneration to increase more than any other healer's can?

You're again assuming bloodmages shouldn't have more energy regeneration than other healers. If you say they should, then you're further proving my assertion that you believe healers should be equal (in the places that matter). But anyway, you'll find my answer in my previous response about the customizable feel of the BM class:

- If I'm in a normal group or with another healer, I wear sdf/int/crit gear for more an offensive stance.
- If we're in a tough spot and the mobs resist me, or I need more healing, I wear +hp/+hf gear and switch to healbot mode. In this mode, I do not nuke, so I do not crit or gain blood union.

In the first example, I heal a good tank very effectively, while critting often and doing respectable damage. If the situation is controlled and the mobs don't resist me, then things are peachy. I believe this is the way the class was intended to be played (my opinion), and it seems a lot of BMs have made this their build.

In the latter case however, the only thing I do well is keep my mana up. My heals are less effective (no crits, so no blood tribute insta-heals, no blood union so no large HoTs), my heals are slower, my group heal is almost worthless since it's so slow, and as I said, I gain zero blood union in Sangunine Focus. But - and this is the only positive point - it's harder to run out of mana.

So to answer you, the "need" to increase my energy regeneration over another healer is evident: we cannot use inefficient direct energy heals when we have to for very long without higher energy regeneration. Also look at what is given up when we switch to mana conservation mode. We have the potential (ugh) to keep the group alive for a longer time, but we go against the grain as to how the BM was designed. No other healer has to do this to effectively heal when things get tough.

Again, this customization is why I play the class. Take it away, and you take away some of what makes it challenging to play.

Originally Posted by Cas

feel free to ask Avair and you will see that the discussion has come up twice.

This is another thing that frustrates us. Why do we have to hear that one of our spells is bugged from the shaman class lead? Why can't our class lead or Avair come and request this info? Why do you have to do it? It makes it seem like you're crusading, rather than helping Avair. If he wants the info, he needs to ask Jeters..

Originally Posted by Cas

Never again, did I directly push for a nerf to MT, because I am professional. Thanks.

Maybe not at the beginning, but that's what it turned out to be. You can keep saying all you want how you're not asking for a nerf, but an "adjustment" or "change" or whatever. Call it anything you like..

[Frozboz]

Originally Posted by Cas

Not according to BM friends of mine and Vgbloodmage members. Also, the numbers posted by Soulreapper don't really match the "base HP" change theory.

Nods, I'll test it later as I'm not 100% sure. I can't say one way or another until then.

[Gecon]

Originally Posted by PerritoBites

Are you telling me your armor has +int in one piece only? By one stat you mean one effect? (aka +sdf, or +healing) i don't recall ever wearing any piece of armor that only had 1 stat. At lv 50, the pieces have more than 3 stats on it :/ I did a random search and I came up with this armor link: Gorgaluk Swamps That is 6-7 stats per piece.

I'm saying that there is dropped armor with only one stat bonus on it. For example, I remember one drop of heavy armor chest with only +Str.

If you are asking for armor pieces with only one property, then no, those really dont exist. Even a crafted T1 still will have also +HP or +MP on it, besides the stat bonus.

But "stat", for me, is short for "statistics", and addresses Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Vitality, Wisdom, and Intelligence.

[Cas]

Originally Posted by Frozboz

You're again assuming bloodmages shouldn't have more energy regeneration than other healers.

What?!

Ok, this may be a futile attempt at explaining what I said above, but I will do it anyways, by using arbitrary numbers:

Assume a Cleric needs X mana regeneration to heal for an amount of time that is considered balanced.

Now assume a BM needs X + 1 mana regenration to heal for an amount of time considered balanced.

When both get better gear, the Cleric's mana regen will remain X, while the BM's mana regen won't be staying X + 1, but will increase to X + 2 and X + 3, because of the mechanics of MT.

So while both their mana requirements have stayed constant, the BM's mana regen has increased independently of any mana regen effects on their gear or through buffs (+Energy regeneration).

Is that clear now? No, BMs shouldn't have the same mana regen as the Cleric, but their increase should be the same, as both start with a base mana regen that is balanced for their class.

I can't explain it any better than that, sorry.

So to answer you, the "need" to increase my energy regeneration over another healer is evident: we cannot use inefficient direct energy heals when we have to for very long without higher energy regeneration. Also look at what is given up when we switch to mana conservation mode. We have the potential (ugh) to keep the group alive for a longer time, but we go against the grain as to how the BM was designed. No other healer has to do this to effectively heal when things get tough.

This is blatantly false. Your healing isn't less efficient than the other healers'. Even with a damage build, your healing efficiency isn't inferior due to your 25% healing stance. We have all seen the numbers and I can put up a link to the healing comparison, if needed.(In the case of your group heal, there's not even the need to account for the healing stance for it to be more efficient.)

Again, this customization is why I play the class. Take it away, and you take away some of what makes it challenging to play.

So you started playing the class knowing that Mental Transmutation would have their returns increased by 200% at level 50?

This is another thing that frustrates us. Why do we have to hear that one of our spells is bugged from the shaman class lead? Why can't our class lead or Avair come and request this info? Why do you have to do it? It makes it seem like you're crusading, rather than helping Avair. If he wants the info, he needs to ask Jeters..

Which is exactly why I didn't continue the discussion with Avair. And you are right, it may have seemed like I was crusading, but the fact that I haven't brought this issue up *at all*, should actually make you understand what kind of attitude I bring to the job and that there's no crusade going on.

Once and for all, as much as it's convenient to make it look like I was "the enemy", I am not. If MT was a Shaman ability, I'd have the same kind of hesitations and you bet I would have brought the same discussion up(albeit in private).

When Hammer of Krigus was not working as intended and was reducing NPC damage too much, I informed Talisker the same day and it was fixed within 10 minutes.

For all you and I know, he probably talked to Jeters once he was made aware of it.

The issue here is, that the more I keep responding to explain where I am coming from and what the issue is in my opinion, the more will whoever is looking for an excuse, accuse me of a crusade. So I have nothing to gain out of discussing things openly on a message board other than drawing the hate of the entire BM community on me for something that has never been intended to be a witch hunt.

[PerritoBites]

Because it is "fixed" it meas you will have the same amount of energy recovery? That makes no sense.

I think the best thing to do for this spell would be to limit its scalability. Like I posted today on the BM boards, how will the following be a nerf to the ability? It will only prevent it from going out of control when there is better armor.

600 base mana recovery. (100% conversion rate)
Then have it so it uses 5% of your HP to scale it up. With 4k hp you will get an additional 200 mana...

So that will give you 800 mana per cast (double of what we get). But it will limit the amount you can scale it up to:
7.5k hps = 950 mana return.

PS: Numbers were just an example... Testing would be needed to find out ideal numbers.

[Arglaar]

Originally Posted by Gecon

I'm saying that there is dropped armor with only one stat bonus on it. For example, I remember one drop of heavy armor chest with only +Str.

If you are asking for armor pieces with only one property, then no, those really dont exist. Even a crafted T1 still will have also +HP or +MP on it, besides the stat bonus.

But "stat", for me, is short for "statistics", and addresses Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Vitality, Wisdom, and Intelligence.

More than likely that armor was a Common (Green) drop and does anyone really wear greens above level 35 anymore?

If you can find me some Rare (Yellow) or Heroic (Orange) gear above level 35 that only has a bonus to one attribute, I'll give you a cookie.

[Frozboz]

Originally Posted by Cas

I can't explain it any better than that, sorry.

Heh, and you're confused with what I said. You assume bloodmages shouldn't have better regen than other healers. Stop and think about that statement. Is there any chance BMs should have better regen? You're assuming the answer is no, when I am offering that as a possible reason as to why we have better potential (ugh) energy regen.

Originally Posted by Cas

This is blatantly false. Your healing isn't less efficient than the other healers'.

Did I say we were? In the healing stance, with the +hp gear, we are inefficient compared to what we are with max sdf, crit chance and the like. I wasn't comparing to other healers. I was comparing the two builds against each other.

But since you brought up other healers... If you compare our +hp/-sdf/-crit build with another classes "normal" build, it's not even close in terms of overall efficiency. We cannot build blood union as quickly (if at all), we cannot nuke with any efficiency, we can't use our good HoT as often, and BT will not fire off since we're not critting. Meanwhile, any other healer can still do these things.

Originally Posted by Cas

We have all seen the numbers and I can put up a link to the healing comparison

If you do, remember to put an asterisk near our large HoT and blood tribute, for the reasons stated above. Those two spells alone are 2/3rds of a normal BM's "normal" healing power. (The other being EV). If you gimp them, you gimp our healing power and thus this conversation takes on a whole new light.

Originally Posted by Cas

So you started playing the class knowing that Mental Transmutation would have their returns increased by 200% at level 50?

I play the class because it's flexible, challenging, and fun. Making gear-swapping pointless by having a flat return on MT will greatly lower that fun factor and will not reward a player for trying different gear choices.

Originally Posted by Cas

So I have nothing to gain out of discussing things openly on a message board other than drawing the hate of the entire BM community on me for something that has never been intended to be a witch hunt.

I couldn't agree more, although "hate" might be a little strong. Unfortunately, the BM community as a whole sees this, right or wrong, as a witch hunt, and sees you, right or wrong, as someone with SOE's ear, campaigning for changes to a class you don't lead..

[Frozboz]

Originally Posted by PerritoBites

600 base mana recovery. (100% conversion rate)
Then have it so it uses 5% of your HP to scale it up. With 4k hp you will get an additional 200 mana...

So with 4k hps (avg BM hp self buffed @50), you've be getting 600 (base) + 200 (additional) = 800 back?

[PerritoBites]

Originally Posted by Frozboz

So with 4k hps (avg BM hp self buffed @50), you've be getting 600 (base) + 200 (additional) = 800 back?

The numbers I used were an example of how the ability could be changed so it doesn't scale as much. Whatever the base number is, it should not allow BMs to go past 900-1k mana per cast of MT. 900 mana is about enough to cast 1 group heal every 10 seconds (MT recast). Even so, 900 mana still looks like a high number to me... but as I said... that was just an example. IMO if you are spamming group heals, you should be spending more mana than what you can get back.

600 mana is enough to cover 2 life tap spells.
900 mana is enough to cover 3 life tap spells.

Mana costs for base heals (not affected by dmg or hf):
Taken from: http://vgbloodmages.com/forums/index...pic,560.0.html
Big heal - 562 mana : 2414 hp : 3sec cast
Quick heal - 483 mana : 1458 hp : 1.5 cast
Life tap - 278 mana : 557 hp : 3 sec cast
Group heal - 933 mana : 1673 hp : 4.5 cast
Small HOT - 285 mana : 1034 hp : 0 cast / 16 duration


MT returns:
400 base + 3% of hp
4k hp = 520 return.
5k hp = 550 return.
6k hp = 580 return.
7k hp = 620 return.

400 base +5% of hp
4k hp = 600 return.
5k hp = 650 return.
6k hp = 700 return.
7k hp = 750 return.

MT right now? 15% of base
4k hp = 600 return.
5k hp = 750 return.
6k hp = 900 return.
7k hp = 1050 return.
(this is if you do a 1hp to 1mana conversion)

No one really knows if the 150% actually affects the spell. But, if it does: 15% base * 150%
4k hp = 900 return
5k hp = 1125 return.
6k hp = 1350 return.
7k hp = 1575 return.

[kastickboy]

Originally Posted by PerritoBites

600 mana is enough to cover 2 life tap spells.
900 mana is enough to cover 3 life tap spells.

Do you really need this much? Do you cast more than 3 taps every 10 seconds?

yeah we do. thats our most efficient spell we have. 1 cast of Infuse health is (483) so wed get to cast one 1.5 sec heal every 10 seconds at 600 return or almost 2 infuse healths at 900... the current setup for MT for a 4k bmg at 50 would give 900 and that gives a diminishing return just for using our small heal in heal bot mode. you can cast Infuse Health 4 times in 8.5 sec for 1932 energy...

UoB uses 400 energy and 200 health at level 50 so even the damage spells cost more than our healing spells (not including spells that use BU)

KA

[PerritoBites]

If you need to spam infuse health so many times in such a small amount of time... there is something wrong with your group. I am not talking about how what you are capable of... I am talking about what you need to cast in a group. You will never need to spam your quick heal that fast in order to heal at tank. And these cost are not taking into consideration natural regeneration and buffs.

[kastickboy]

Originally Posted by PerritoBites

If you need to spam infuse health so many times in such a small amount of time... there is something wrong with your group. I am not talking about how what you are capable of... I am talking about what you need to cast in a group. You will never need to spam your quick heal that fast in order to heal at tank. And these cost are not taking into consideration natural regeneration and buffs.

haha yeah thats called aoe damage, bad pull, emergency situation whatever you call it...

under normal circumstances, UoB (400), EV (280) is 680 energy in 6 seconds. Add a cyst or crit reaction to one of those and your adding even more energy to where you are at diminishing returns.

KA