[Mortezzah]

When are 4/5/6 dot solos going to stop?

[Venge]

Originally Posted by Mortezzah

When are 4/5/6 dot solos going to stop?

That is the question...

[Gecon]

Easy - they wont.

With very good equipment, you can even kill a 4dot on a Warrior. I killed a level 11 4dot on my Warrior 15.

Granted, you need the lucky crits - or you are dead before the mob is dead.

If even the Warrior can do that, naturally other classes can do so, too.

[Errid]

they mean mobs equal to or higher than the players level. Besides all classes can solo well up to about 15-20 because the mos are increadibly weak to prevent new players from getting frustrated so early.

[Cobalty2004]

Originally Posted by Gecon

Easy - they wont.

With very good equipment, you can even kill a 4dot on a Warrior. I killed a level 11 4dot on my Warrior 15.

Granted, you need the lucky crits - or you are dead before the mob is dead.

If even the Warrior can do that, naturally other classes can do so, too.

This game doesn't scale that well... look at Fraktal's gear on vgplayers and I can tell you I cannot solo a 4dot green mob...

[rordell]

Originally Posted by Cobalty2004

This game doesn't scale that well... look at Fraktal's gear on vgplayers and I can tell you I cannot solo a 4dot green mob...

hence your problem (not that any warrior with ANY gear could do it easily, but your gear needs some work bro, mainly your AC)

Hit Points 6249

Endurance 100

Energy 3310

Strength 327

Constitution 244

Dexterity 339

Vitality 111

Intelligence 66

Wisdom 120

Armor Class 1772

Melee Attack 920

Defense 5700

[Mortezzah]

The stats you listed look inaccurate (like I bet his AC is more around 3300).

However, it's not the AC nor is it the player -- its the class.

I'm over 4000 AC unbuffed (and using either a 96 DPS 2hander or 70 DPS 1 hander with board) and tanking even-conned 4 dots ain't happening.

The Warrior class fits their vision quite well. The problem is its about the only class that does.

Fix Warriors or in nerf everyone else (or if saying nerf isn't politically correct then make mobs more powerful in such a manner that it negligably affects the Warriors solo game, yet effects everyone else who is soloing 4/5/6 crap).

[Venge]

Originally Posted by rordell

hence your problem (not that any warrior with ANY gear could do it easily, but your gear needs some work bro, mainly your AC)

Hit Points 6249

Endurance 100

Energy 3310

Strength 327

Constitution 244

Dexterity 339

Vitality 111

Intelligence 66

Wisdom 120

Armor Class 1772

Melee Attack 920

Defense 5700

Its very inaccurate...if his AC is that low, i will personally slap him

[Tuddar]

Originally Posted by Gecon

Easy - they wont.

With very good equipment, you can even kill a 4dot on a Warrior. I killed a level 11 4dot on my Warrior 15.

Granted, you need the lucky crits - or you are dead before the mob is dead.

If even the Warrior can do that, naturally other classes can do so, too.

Uh, no.

Warrior DPS and HP do not scale at the same rate 3+ dot mob's DPS and HP do.

Think of it like this: Let's say every 2 levels, you get 5% more HP and DPS. But 3+ dot mobs gain 10% more HP and DPS.

So lets say that the warrior has 1000HP and 50DPS at Lvl10, and the mob has 2000 HP and 50 DPS. It will take you 20 seconds to kill the mob, and it will take the mob 10 seconds to kill you. Now let us say you get a string of lucky crits that increase your DPS x4, giving you 200DPS. So in 5 seconds, you chop through the mob.

Now, add 10 levels. The warrior now has 1647HP, and 82DPS. The mob now has 5,414 HP and 135DPS. It will take it 14 seconds to kill you. It will take you 66 seconds to kill it. Even with a lucky string of crits as before, giving you 410 DPS over 5 seconds, it would still take you an additional 41 seconds. Even if every attack crit, it would still take you 13 seconds to kill them mob.

After only 10 levels, it has now taken you twice as long to kill the mob, and the time it takes you to kill the mob vs. it killing you under best case scenario has gone from a difference of 5 seconds to 1 second.

Continue the trend upward, and you can see that after a certain point it simply becomes impossible to kill a mob before it kills you.

Now, the scaling is not as simplistic as this and there are other factors involved (new abilities to avoid/block/mitigate, etc) but it effectively shows how scaling works.

Kiting classes can simply avoid damage altogether, and thus in their case the factors are the length of time it takes to kill the mob and how efficiently they use their endurance/mana. Healers take the damage, but can counter it with their heals. Which again reduces the factors down to length of time to kill the mob and their efficiency.

[Tuddar]

Originally Posted by rordell

hence your problem (not that any warrior with ANY gear could do it easily, but your gear needs some work bro, mainly your AC)

Hit Points 6249

Endurance 100

Energy 3310

Strength 327

Constitution 244

Dexterity 339

Vitality 111

Intelligence 66

Wisdom 120

Armor Class 1772

Melee Attack 920

Defense 5700

VGPlayers isn't correct. I checked my stats, and many of them are wrong. Str/Wis/Vit and HP are all correct. Everything else is wrong.

Regardless, even if he had max mitigation % and avoidance, he still wouldn't be able to take down an even con 4-dot mob. The scaling simply makes it impossible.

[Cobalty2004]

Originally Posted by rordell

hence your problem (not that any warrior with ANY gear could do it easily, but your gear needs some work bro, mainly your AC)

Hit Points 6249

Endurance 100

Energy 3310

Strength 327

Constitution 244

Dexterity 339

Vitality 111

Intelligence 66

Wisdom 120

Armor Class 1772

Melee Attack 920

Defense 5700

Lol, I forgot some of my numbers, but some of those seem a little off...

Logging in too check exactly and will post back

But regardless of my gear, my gear is far greater than any solo player can ever get, so they would be at an even more disadvantage...

[Cobalty2004]

In offensive gear: (O-stance obviously, no other buffs)
439 STR
282 Con
349 DEX
6093 HP
2085 energy
3169 AC
5447 defense (29.5% MIT, and 16.9% evasion)
550-634 Attack Mainhand
273-315 Offhand

In defensive gear: (D-stance obviously, no other buffs)
453 STR
282 Con
363 dex
5944 HP (lol @ the decrease)
2085 energy
3467 AC
7148 Defense (47.9 MIT, 40.8 evasion)
454-515 Attack Mainhand


My gear has been broken for over a week, just got done doing a guild event...

[Karnos]

Originally Posted by Venge

- Wardar's Bulwark - Duration has been increased from 30 seconds to 60 seconds.
- Wardar's Bulwark - Reuse timer has been increased from 30 seconds to 5 minutes.
- Wardar's Bulwark - Damage has been increased significantly.

So, in other words, the sole survivability-enhancing advantage we had over paladins and dread knights in a raid context is now gone.

We went from enjoying the top mitigation among defensive fighters to having the highest mitigation of all tanks for merely 1 min out of 5, after which we will have the lowest mitigation of all tanks for the remaining 4 minutes out of 5.

That is considered balanced by someone somewhere?

Personally, I would much rather have a non-finisher buff affording 5% mitigation at all times. At least then I wouldn't have to suffer through having the lowest mitigation of all tanks 80% of the time.

By the by, dread knights enjoy a 750 AC buff which can be maintained indefinitely. At 50th level, that is the equivalent of 5% mitigation. Do let us not forget that dread knights also have the highest block chance of all defensive fighters.

As for paladins, they don't have quite as much of a permanent mitigation edge as dread knights, but their class does afford three separate invulnerability lines, which is certainly superior to our new Warder's Bulwark.

And all of that on top of us having the lowest DPS of all tanks while in defensive and the least utility at all times.

Apropos utility, did all of you know that paladins at 50th level get a hate reducer, akin to our own Withdraw, which reduces the target's hate by 100%, rather than the 90% of our command?

Oh, and how about the 6 second stun paladins get at high levels? Unlike our shout, it doesn't break on damage.

I have been damned patient, waiting since Beta for the developers to bring warriors up to par with the other classes, and this is the reward? They have the sheer audacity of nerfing the sole survivability advantage we retained while the other two tanks remain superior in nearly every other aspect of the game? What the hell is going on?!

[Mortezzah]

Originally Posted by Karnos

So, in other words, the sole survivability-enhancing advantage we had over paladins and dread knights in a raid context is now gone.

We went from enjoying the top mitigation among defensive fighters to having the highest mitigation of all tanks for merely 1 min out of 5, after which we will have the lowest mitigation of all tanks for the remaining 4 minutes out of 5.

That is considered balanced by someone somewhere?

Personally, I would much rather have a non-finisher buff affording 5% mitigation at all times. At least then I wouldn't have to suffer through having the lowest mitigation of all tanks 80% of the time.

By the by, dread knights enjoy a 750 AC buff which can be maintained indefinitely. At 50th level, that is the equivalent of 5% mitigation. Do let us not forget that dread knights also have the highest block chance of all defensive fighters.

As for paladins, they don't have quite as much of a permanent mitigation edge as dread knights, but their class does afford three separate invulnerability lines, which is certainly superior to our new Warder's Bulwark.

And all of that on top of us having the lowest DPS of all tanks while in defensive and the least utility at all times.

Apropos utility, did all of you know that paladins at 50th level get a hate reducer, akin to our own Withdraw, which reduces the target's hate by 100%, rather than the 90% of our command?

Oh, and how about the 6 second stun paladins get at high levels? Unlike our shout, it doesn't break on damage.

I have been damned patient, waiting since Beta for the developers to bring warriors up to par with the other classes, and this is the reward? They have the sheer audacity of nerfing the sole survivability advantage we retained while the other two tanks remain superior in nearly every other aspect of the game? What the hell is going on?!

I've been saying it from the day I started my DK. It is so much more versatile than my Warrior and tanks almost identically. The Warrior has no purpose right now. The Warrior is not the tank DPS master (defensive it sucks; against undead Pal's shine). It's not the melee master. It doesn't tank better. It solo's the worst by a mile (least reliability; most downtime; riskiest; etc).

If you want to give Warriors the DPS edge, them give them access to all abilities in defensive stance.
Give them a snare.
Give them a HP regen.
And FFS fix all 4/5/6 dot mobs.

[Karnos]

Originally Posted by Mortezzah

I've been saying it from the day I started my DK. It is so much more versatile than my Warrior and tanks almost identically. The Warrior has no purpose right now. The Warrior is not the tank DPS master (defensive it sucks; against undead Pal's shine). It's not the melee master. It doesn't tank better. It solo's the worst by a mile (least reliability; most downtime; riskiest; etc).

If you want to give Warriors the DPS edge, them give them access to all abilities in defensive stance.
Give them a snare.
Give them a HP regen.
And FFS fix all 4/5/6 dot mobs.

I had come to accept the shortcomings of the class because we still were able to maintain 15% more mitigation than any other tank.

The Warder's Bulwark nerf, however, changes the entire equation.

We are now clearly inferior raid tanks unless, somehow, our Ironfoe buff becomes crucial in most raid fights. I don't really see that happening, especially considering the duration and recast.

Meanwhile, we remain the worst soloing class and the worst group tank, unless we are able to tank while in offensive and thus bring our DPS to bear, but versus content that can be tanked in offensive, the group doesn't really need a tank in the first place, so what is the point.

If WB is to remain as Venge posted, then drastic changes are called for. Warriors need several abilities which improve our survivability vs spike damage, we need substantial in-combat HP regen on par with the overall healing power of paladins, and we need access to all of our abilities in defensive.

Warriors would end up with the best hate generation of all tanks, AE and single-target alike. We would be able to solo on par with paladins. We would require somewhat more healing than paladins and dread knights 80% of the time on raids, but we would be a little more reliable due to our situational stun invulnerability and superior aggro control.

Paladins would have a minor overall mitigation advantage (which they will enjoy once the WB nerf is effectuated), their gifts of virtue (including the best group taunt/rescue in the game), their superior rescues, their anti-undead advantages, their group healing capabilities, their lull, their unbreakable stun, their safe fall buff, and their shield focusing buffs (reactive heal, taunt, and damage procs).

Dread knights would remain the best soloers of the three, have better block than anyone, better overall mitigation, lifetaps, self-runes, and the second-best single-target aggro.

That is balance. Not the sorry excuse of a warrior class we will be left with after WB has been marginalized.

[Venge]

Originally Posted by Mortezzah

I've been saying it from the day I started my DK. It is so much more versatile than my Warrior and tanks almost identically. The Warrior has no purpose right now. The Warrior is not the tank DPS master (defensive it sucks; against undead Pal's shine). It's not the melee master. It doesn't tank better. It solo's the worst by a mile (least reliability; most downtime; riskiest; etc).

If you want to give Warriors the DPS edge, them give them access to all abilities in defensive stance.
Give them a snare.
Give them a HP regen.
And FFS fix all 4/5/6 dot mobs.

That is what would make them fit the description.

[Karnos]

Originally Posted by Venge

That is what would make them fit the description.

Of the three tank classes, only warriors have to give up 12+ of their abilities, including their best finisher chain, while in defensive.

Assuming there is a purpose to class design choices, rudimentary logic dictates that such a heavily penalized defensive stance must be affording warriors some manner of significant advantage that the other two defensive fighters do not have.

With WB nerfed to hell, what, pray tell, is that advantage, Venge?

[Wodar]

Karnos speaks the truth

Listen to him and learn.

Otherwise continue the slide into oblivion with this game.

There are people who like and desire to play a warrior class. We choose to play here and we do not deserve to be punished for trying to play a warrior in Vanguard.

[Venge]

Originally Posted by Karnos

Of the three tank classes, only warriors have to give up 12+ of their abilities, including their best finisher chain, while in defensive.

Assuming there is a purpose to class design choices, rudimentary logic dictates that such a heavily penalized defensive stance must be affording warriors some manner of significant advantage that the other two defensive fighters do not have.

With WB nerfed to hell, what, pray tell, is that advantage, Venge?

I honestly never understodd if we were to be the "melee masters". Then why would we have separate ability sets compared to the DK/Paladin. See what I mean?

[Pudsley]

Originally Posted by Wodar

.

There are people who like and desire to play a warrior class. We choose to play here and we do not deserve to be punished for trying to play a warrior in Vanguard.

Welcome to Vanguard, home of the all time worst Warrior class in the history of MMO's.

We tell Venge how we feel about the class, Venge tells the devs, the dev's do the total opposite of what the class needs.

In their quest for balance inside the archetypes they have created the most imbalanced spread of classes I have ever seen, from Necromancers who can solo 6 dot dungeon bosses like Hegnarian to Warriors who run away from two common 2 dot mobs, and many of the classes just aren't fun to play (not all mind you).