[Tuddar]

Originally Posted by Venge

I don't like short durations either...believe me I don't. But they simply won't give it to us. No matter how many ways we plead for it.

Do they really believe that people want to participate in a button mashing fest? I'm a bit floored that they are so reticent against something that is fairly common sense. People can only handle a certain amount of variability and decision making. Particularly when there are time constraints.

Passive and long duration buffs allow the removal of the time constraint, and the ability to narrow down the decision making process.

You have to have a balance. You need a certain amount of variability to make things entertaining and challenging; too much variability and decision making and it becomes tedious and overwhelming.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Over and over you see a common theme within these threads where people say they only use abilities X, Y, and Z because they don't have time to deal with anything else, or the returns on that greater variability are so small as to negate them from the decision making process.

That is a pretty strong indicator for what the upper limit is for people's capacity. If the designers cannot recognize and reconcile that simple fact of human nature, they will be pushing boulders up steeper and steeper mountains.

This also creates balance issues. If class Z is balanced against class Y because it has abilities A, B, C, D, and E, but D and E can never practically be used then for all intents and purposes D and E don't exist. This wouldn't be a problem as long as all classes had to deal with the issue, but that isn't the case currently.

[Sojuro]

What im seeing is that practically everyone is asking for warriors to have long duration, medium recast commands. If they implement something where you have a buff which you can have active indefinitely via its duration being longer than its cooldown, or something you can have on 50-80% of the time, then guys, every single on of your commands is gonna be nerfed to hell.

I know someone is gonna start nagging about how I am a paladin and I shouldnt be posting here (mrbandersnatch) but here is my experience. Paladins get several pitifully weak buffs on long timers. Courage maxes out at about 450AC and 300 hp for an hour. Around 50 that translated to maybe 2% mit tops if you are on the low end of the curve. Sentinel's Blessing, 5 min duration armor buff, we can keep it on all the time, but it barely adds 1% mit, and so on and so forth.

I can imagine what would happen if every command became a passive buff.
Press the Attack: Increase group damage by 3%
Form a Line: Increase group mit by 3%
Strike Now: Increase group's melee crit chance by 1%
Withdraw: Group generates 5% less hate

The general balance formula for this kind of stuff is Power*Duration=Constant, or relatively constant. So if we take that 8 second +30% damage buff with a 45 second recast, we have +30% active 18% of the time. So 30*18=540(current). Divide by new duration of 100 and you get 5.4%, but since its passive we can now compare it to everyone else's passive buffs, and prolly nerf it down a % or 2.

I am not saying I dont want warriors to be a good class. My close RL friend is a warrior and we have/had plans of eventually tanking raids together, so I want nothing more than for him to become a viable soloer, grouper, and raider. But at the same time, I do not want him to be head and shoulders over me when it comes down to tanking just because he is a warrior...

[Karnos]

Personally, I don't mind relative short durations, if only 1) the effects are substantial and 2) the reuse times aren't too brief.

How about doubling the reuse times of our commands and shouts (not Withdraw, mind you) while also doubling their effects? I wouldn't mind waiting twice as long for an ability to refresh--in fact, I would welcome it--if only everyone would feel the difference when one of them was in use.

Remember, say, Cacophony of Blades or Dispatch from EQ2? Both short duration effects; both with a reuse time of more than a minute. Both quite powerful and recognized as such by the player base.

That kind of thing is what the class needs.

[Karnos]

While I'm out of stealth mode on these boards, a quick suggestion, Venge: Would it be possible to get rid of one or two of our single-target commands, or perhaps those pointless endurance/HP regens that seem to be in the works, and in return get access to our AE, perhaps even our AE finisher, in defensive?

Honestly, while warriors may have the best AE taunt in the game, I really don't feel our AE hate generation is anywhere near supreme while tanking in defensive. The reason being, of course, that the 40% hate bonus courtesy of the stance doesn't enhance our AE taunt, but solely applies to our damage, and we have no AE attacks whatsoever available.

[Silverbeard]

Originally Posted by Karnos

get access to our AE, perhaps even our AE finisher, in defensive?

I agree, my AE attacks never get used when I need them, Its totally counter productive to use AE attacks while in offensive, thus getting agro and not being able to take the hits. then switching to defensive to tank for your group and have no way to keep AE agro. AE taunt doesn't even counter act one heal from the cleric.

[Garbar]

Originally Posted by Venge

We did have that in beta...but it was taken away :\

So combat awareness and tactical recognition are totaly useless ?

I dont see one reason why they would remove that.... I really do like my warrior, I like tanking a warrior does a good job, I dont feel we are "under powered" at all. But thats very disapointing....

Is there any chance of it going back in at some stage venge? or did they scrap the idea all together?

PS: <3 Endurance regen =0

[Pudsley]

Originally Posted by Sojuro

What im seeing is that practically everyone is asking for warriors to have long duration, medium recast commands. If they implement something where you have a buff which you can have active indefinitely via its duration being longer than its cooldown, or something you can have on 50-80% of the time, then guys, every single on of your commands is gonna be nerfed to hell.

I know someone is gonna start nagging about how I am a paladin and I shouldnt be posting here (mrbandersnatch) but here is my experience. Paladins get several pitifully weak buffs on long timers. Courage maxes out at about 450AC and 300 hp for an hour. Around 50 that translated to maybe 2% mit tops if you are on the low end of the curve. Sentinel's Blessing, 5 min duration armor buff, we can keep it on all the time, but it barely adds 1% mit, and so on and so forth.

I can imagine what would happen if every command became a passive buff.
Press the Attack: Increase group damage by 3%
Form a Line: Increase group mit by 3%
Strike Now: Increase group's melee crit chance by 1%
Withdraw: Group generates 5% less hate

The general balance formula for this kind of stuff is Power*Duration=Constant, or relatively constant. So if we take that 8 second +30% damage buff with a 45 second recast, we have +30% active 18% of the time. So 30*18=540(current). Divide by new duration of 100 and you get 5.4%, but since its passive we can now compare it to everyone else's passive buffs, and prolly nerf it down a % or 2.

I am not saying I dont want warriors to be a good class. My close RL friend is a warrior and we have/had plans of eventually tanking raids together, so I want nothing more than for him to become a viable soloer, grouper, and raider. But at the same time, I do not want him to be head and shoulders over me when it comes down to tanking just because he is a warrior...

First of all, I'm not going to bash you just because you are a Paladin on a Warrior thread, your post was well worded and constructive.

The problem with the short duration buffs is we effectively have to triage and cut out the commands that have very limited benefit.

It's an impressively complex system being a Warrior (not saying Paladin isn't) juggling crits with the myriad of combo's to boost mitigation, damage or hate, then adding group commands and eventually single target commands, we simply don't have the time to use the extra commands, there's only so much you can get done and frankly it's mind boggling the thought of all of our single target commands being moved to seperate timers.

I hold aggro well for the most part, but if I lose concentration even for few seconds and slip behind and don't for example re-use my "Myrmidons Gift > Kick > Stinging Cut > Blades Bite" combo I'm risking losing aggro, if the mob is sufficiently hard and hits hard enough then I need to keep Warders Bulwark up as much as possible to keep my mitigation at it's peak.

Since both my hate building moves and my mit buff both run out at 30 seconds and my two 100% crit abilities are on 60 seconds and 30 second recasts respectively I have to juggle them and keep watching my cooldowns and rebuffs to keep enough hate to maintain aggro and mitigation, all the while watching my Withdraw command and using that on the person with the most aggro (myself aside) or the person most likely to over aggro, frankly it's a fairly tiring job juggling that stuff around, none the less it's effective and satisfying, don't forget to factor in the other tools we share, like counters and rescues.

Adding even more single target commands to the list of available options might well push it just a little too far, especially since I have to figure out who would benefit from which command and when, I'm not stupid or slow but my meagre brain is going to have trouble processing all this for hours on end.

Currently per fight I am constantly watching 5 short timers (buffs and recasts) I don't feel like adding another 5 to the list.

I can see why they did it, we always complained that we just used Strike Now and Withdraw so the rest were pointless, by removing the shared timer they were thinking that now we can use all of them, unfortunately I don't like having all the extra commands and I'm not sure they are all that useful anyway.

After all that prattling on I can't say for sure how it will turn out just yet, they were looking at Warders Bulwark anyway, maybe changing that in some form may help free up some cycle time in the average brain to make use of all the commands.

[Tanahlai]

Why is everyone trying to get rid of our single target commands (except withdraw)? Press the attack is a VERY good skill and I use it religiously. I have an extremely aggressive ranger that I have in every single one of my groups and he can work wonders with it. Raise defenses, while not on my every day usage list (since I'm always MT) will see it's use for things like...when a psionicist breaks charm (because they almost always end up taking 1 hit) since all commands are going to independant refresh.

Now even in the standard state, I have little use for Withdraw, though I know the vast majority of warriors worship it. But even if you do rely on withdraw a little too much for my tastes, you're going to be able to harness the power of Press the Attack *in addition* when these changes go in, so why in all of hell are people trying to get rid of it? It's a fantastic ability. Stop it.

Additionally, for those going on about button mashing fest...I like my combat active, and I don't feel that this current system with a slew of short duration buffs is a problem. Also keep in mind that virtually all of our regular use buffs don't activate the global cooldown. Hell, when these changes go live I could hit all six commands back to back inside of a second or two. Yes, we juggle a lot, with crit chains (and how to not interupt them), agro, keeping tabs on everyone in our group for stupid crap like standing in the way of pathing mobs, etc. But I like that.

[Pudsley]

Originally Posted by Sojuro

I am not saying I dont want warriors to be a good class. My close RL friend is a warrior and we have/had plans of eventually tanking raids together, so I want nothing more than for him to become a viable soloer, grouper, and raider. But at the same time, I do not want him to be head and shoulders over me when it comes down to tanking just because he is a warrior...

I agree, but at the end of the day all Warriors understand there has to be give and take....for longer durations on these buffs we understand there is going to have to be a weaker effect, that's balance for you.

At no point have I felt Warriors to be underpowered, we hold aggro and mitigate damage well in defensive stance, we deal substantial damage in offensive stance, what I do feel is that we aren't well put together.

We lack utility (commands have been getting attention by devs but even with these latest changes they may not be up to scratch yet)

We lack solo ability.

These two points put us well below our Paladin and DK counterparts, in terms of tanking ability I'd ay we are reasonably balanced, and I'm happy for it to stay that way.

[Pudsley]

Originally Posted by Tanahlai

Why is everyone trying to get rid of our single target commands (except withdraw)? Press the attack is a VERY good skill and I use it religiously. I have an extremely aggressive ranger that I have in every single one of my groups and he can work wonders with it. Raise defenses, while not on my every day usage list (since I'm always MT) will see it's use for things like...when a psionicist breaks charm (because they almost always end up taking 1 hit) since all commands are going to independant refresh.

Now even in the standard state, I have little use for Withdraw, though I know the vast majority of warriors worship it. But even if you do rely on withdraw a little too much for my tastes, you're going to be able to harness the power of Press the Attack *in addition* when these changes go in, so why in all of hell are people trying to get rid of it? It's a fantastic ability. Stop it.

Additionally, for those going on about button mashing fest...I like my combat active, and I don't feel that this current system with a slew of short duration buffs is a problem. Also keep in mind that virtually all of our regular use buffs don't activate the global cooldown. Hell, when these changes go live I could hit all six commands back to back inside of a second or two. Yes, we juggle a lot, with crit chains (and how to not interupt them), agro, keeping tabs on everyone in our group for stupid crap like standing in the way of pathing mobs, etc. But I like that.

Seriously, you have an extremely aggresive ranger you say......

If my Ranger or Sorc buddies go wild (which they frequently do) I WILL have aggro problems, adding press the attack to them is a sure fire way to get one of them killed or waste precious mana on our healers, it's not a question of how good a tank I am, it's a question of how much sheer damage they can sling out at level 50 with good equipment.

If you "have little use for withdraw" then frankly one of the following applies....

Your DPS'ers are not as agressive as you think they are.

They are not level 50 or wearing particularly impressive equipment (yes being level 50 makes a difference, many classes including Warriors get major upgrades as they go up throught he levels, the capabilities of a level 50 are vastly different from a level 30, maybe they are level 50 but you didn't say).

They are careful and experienced players who know how to manage their own aggro.

I use Withdraw on the Sorc usually, ask the ranger to back off and if I had the use of Press the Attack as well as Withdraw then I'd probably use it to bolster one of the lower damage members of the team, certainly not to send my Ranger and Sorc's damage through the roof.

Besides, nobody is trying to get rid of them, we want to change them....a longer duration press the attack with a lesser effect would benefit us more, less to keep recasting, and I'd probably be a lot better off with regards to stray aggro.

[Tanahlai]

Originally Posted by Pudsley

Seriously, you have an extremely aggresive ranger you say......

If my Ranger or Sorc buddies go wild (which they frequently do) I WILL have aggro problems, adding press the attack to them is a sure fire way to get one of them killed or waste precious mana on our healers, it's not a question of how good a tank I am, it's a question of how much sheer damage they can sling out at level 50 with good equipment.

If you "have little use for withdraw" then frankly one of the following applies....

Your DPS'ers are not as agressive as you think they are.

They are not level 50 or wearing particularly impressive equipment (yes being level 50 makes a difference, many classes including Warriors get major upgrades as they go up throught he levels, the capabilities of a level 50 are vastly different from a level 30, maybe they are level 50 but you didn't say).

They are careful and experienced players who know how to manage their own aggro.

I use Withdraw on the Sorc usually, ask the ranger to back off and if I had the use of Press the Attack as well as Withdraw then I'd probably use it to bolster one of the lower damage members of the team, certainly not to send my Ranger and Sorc's damage through the roof.

Besides, nobody is trying to get rid of them, we want to change them....a longer duration press the attack with a lesser effect would benefit us more, less to keep recasting, and I'd probably be a lot better off with regards to stray aggro.

Well you're right in that I'm not level 50. But at 33, it's a non issue. Also, if you look above, there's at least 2 people that proposed "Well let's get rid of our single target commands and give us X instead" which is what I'm primarily responding to. But regardless, having both press the attack AND withdraw available, quite possibly for the same people, is a major benefit.

[Pudsley]

Originally Posted by Tanahlai

Well you're right in that I'm not level 50. But at 33, it's a non issue. Also, if you look above, there's at least 2 people that proposed "Well let's get rid of our single target commands and give us X instead" which is what I'm primarily responding to. But regardless, having both press the attack AND withdraw available, quite possibly for the same people, is a major benefit.

Ok, fair enough...you have me there, some people have asked for them to be removed.

I personally just want them adjusting.

I'm sure you and your friends know how to play your classes, but trust me when I say at level 50 the classes are very different, I used to be the same as you, unfortunately most input I had before my Warrior hit level 50 was all that accurate.

Still, doesn't mean you shouldn't speak your mind, just remember it may not apply at level 50.

[mrbandersnatch]

Originally Posted by Sojuro

What im seeing is that practically everyone is asking for warriors to have long duration, medium recast commands. If they implement something where you have a buff which you can have active indefinitely via its duration being longer than its cooldown, or something you can have on 50-80% of the time, then guys, every single on of your commands is gonna be nerfed to hell.

I know someone is gonna start nagging about how I am a paladin and I shouldnt be posting here (mrbandersnatch) but here is my experience. Paladins get several pitifully weak buffs on long timers. Courage maxes out at about 450AC and 300 hp for an hour. Around 50 that translated to maybe 2% mit tops if you are on the low end of the curve. Sentinel's Blessing, 5 min duration armor buff, we can keep it on all the time, but it barely adds 1% mit, and so on and so forth.

I can imagine what would happen if every command became a passive buff.
Press the Attack: Increase group damage by 3%
Form a Line: Increase group mit by 3%
Strike Now: Increase group's melee crit chance by 1%
Withdraw: Group generates 5% less hate

The general balance formula for this kind of stuff is Power*Duration=Constant, or relatively constant. So if we take that 8 second +30% damage buff with a 45 second recast, we have +30% active 18% of the time. So 30*18=540(current). Divide by new duration of 100 and you get 5.4%, but since its passive we can now compare it to everyone else's passive buffs, and prolly nerf it down a % or 2.

I am not saying I dont want warriors to be a good class. My close RL friend is a warrior and we have/had plans of eventually tanking raids together, so I want nothing more than for him to become a viable soloer, grouper, and raider. But at the same time, I do not want him to be head and shoulders over me when it comes down to tanking just because he is a warrior...

Post WTF you want, it should be a free planet. If youre talking down the WAR class or telling us what we need though from your perspective as a PAL though (and this applies to DKs) dont be suprised when youre told to **** off.

Anyways you do make an interesting point here HOWEVER what you fail to realise is that as things stood MOST of the commands just were NEVER used. Seperating the timers gives us more options so its a distinct improvement but I suspect most people, because playing a warrior is an INCREDIBLY click intensive job, just put the three in a macro and use that most of the time; I know that will be 95% of the usage patern for me at least.

Anyways, again wheres the beef? HP regen passive? When where what how? Thats STILL **THE** major change that NEEDS to go in so that WAR is on par with DK/PAL in SOLO/OFFTANK and hell GROUPTANK roles.

[Dajag]

Projectile Vomits+

This whole thread is making me sick.

Warriors ride the little yellow bus and Verge wearing horse blinder is the driver.

Warriors need fixed, they need brought up to snuff and all we get is this Phlegm, hand me down sweater crud.

Wait till u see some of the love other classes are getting ur going to soil ur pants.

The Old Vision is gone and will never come back so bring warriors up to speed with the new Vision.

Warriors need to be able to solo damit - even solo quests have 3 dots in them and we can’t solo them yet every other class can. EVERY OTHER CLASS!

Warriors spend 1/3 of their play time when soloing on their knees eating hard boiled eggs EVEN WHEN SOLOING EVEN CON 2 DOTS! NO OTHER CLASS HAS THIS TROUBLE!

Bah wasting my breath again on Verge, he has his static group and has stated numerous times he wants warriors to the most group dependant class.

Well we are so dependant right now we are on welfare, food stamps and every other subsidy out there.

The game is loaded with TIME SINKS, FARMING, CAMPING and for the Warrior all these things become 3x as hard because we always have to piggy back with someone because we cant solo crud.

I sure hope something in this helps us out though I am not going to hold my breath, soon my Druid will be lvl 50 too and as things are I will be switching mains because at least the druid has no real down and can solo and group.

[Tanahlai]

Originally Posted by Dajag

Projectile Vomits+
Warriors ride the little yellow bus and Verge wearing horse blinder is the driver.
Venge has been doing fantastic the last few weeks.

The Old Vision is gone and will never come back so bring warriors up to speed with the new Vision.
Yes, the warrior class is one that hasn't weathered the shift in MMOs so well. I think we're working towards progress just fine.

Warriors need to be able to solo damit - even solo quests have 3 dots in them and we can’t solo them yet every other class can. EVERY OTHER CLASS!
I can solo yellow 3 dots with relative ease, due to many of the changes that have occured in the last several weeks. Granted, we do have more requirements to do so. I'm decked out head to toe in heroic armor and weaponry, but more importantly, its Qalian style crafted armor (armorsmithing + heal procs FTW). Also, rogues have solo problems.

Warriors spend 1/3 of their play time when soloing on their knees eating hard boiled eggs EVEN WHEN SOLOING EVEN CON 2 DOTS! NO OTHER CLASS HAS THIS TROUBLE!
Yes, warriors used to struggle with even con 2 dots. I largely don't believe this to be the case anymore. We do still struggle with 2 dots should we get more than one or two adds, but that can be largely dealt with by paying attention.

The game is loaded with TIME SINKS, FARMING, CAMPING and for the Warrior all these things become 3x as hard because we always have to piggy back with someone because we cant solo crud.

Again, the majority of time sinks and farming come in the flavor of 2-3 dot mobs, which I still maintain we don't struggle too terribly much with anymore.

.

[Silverbeard]

Passive bonus idea, Dual Wield Specialist. In order for Warriors to gain more DPS while in defensive stance and not loose are ability to tank, Give warriors an innate increase in parry while dual wielding in defensive stance. like 20% parry chance vs an even con. Thats equivalent to a Yellow Shields bonus to block. This would also give warriors a bit more use of the reposte line while losing the use of our block based attacks and counters. Let us do a bit more DPS while in defensive and not loose so much evasion.

[Venge]

Originally Posted by Dajag

Projectile Vomits+

This whole thread is making me sick.

Warriors ride the little yellow bus and Verge wearing horse blinder is the driver.

Warriors need fixed, they need brought up to snuff and all we get is this Phlegm, hand me down sweater crud.

Wait till u see some of the love other classes are getting ur going to soil ur pants.

The Old Vision is gone and will never come back so bring warriors up to speed with the new Vision.

Warriors need to be able to solo damit - even solo quests have 3 dots in them and we can’t solo them yet every other class can. EVERY OTHER CLASS!

Warriors spend 1/3 of their play time when soloing on their knees eating hard boiled eggs EVEN WHEN SOLOING EVEN CON 2 DOTS! NO OTHER CLASS HAS THIS TROUBLE!

Bah wasting my breath again on Verge, he has his static group and has stated numerous times he wants warriors to the most group dependant class.

Well we are so dependant right now we are on welfare, food stamps and every other subsidy out there.

The game is loaded with TIME SINKS, FARMING, CAMPING and for the Warrior all these things become 3x as hard because we always have to piggy back with someone because we cant solo crud.

I sure hope something in this helps us out though I am not going to hold my breath, soon my Druid will be lvl 50 too and as things are I will be switching mains because at least the druid has no real down and can solo and group.

The Soloist heh.

[Cobalty2004]

Originally Posted by Venge

The Soloist heh.

Any more goodies inc. Venge?

[Vaxer]

Better yet...when are they looking to go live? Hoping this is not a 2-3 month plan.

[Axle]

Originally Posted by Dajag

Projectile Vomits+

This whole thread is making me sick.

Warriors ride the little yellow bus and Verge wearing horse blinder is the driver.

Warriors need fixed, they need brought up to snuff and all we get is this Phlegm, hand me down sweater crud.

Wait till u see some of the love other classes are getting ur going to soil ur pants.

The Old Vision is gone and will never come back so bring warriors up to speed with the new Vision.

Warriors need to be able to solo damit - even solo quests have 3 dots in them and we can’t solo them yet every other class can. EVERY OTHER CLASS!

Warriors spend 1/3 of their play time when soloing on their knees eating hard boiled eggs EVEN WHEN SOLOING EVEN CON 2 DOTS! NO OTHER CLASS HAS THIS TROUBLE!

Bah wasting my breath again on Verge, he has his static group and has stated numerous times he wants warriors to the most group dependant class.

Well we are so dependant right now we are on welfare, food stamps and every other subsidy out there.

The game is loaded with TIME SINKS, FARMING, CAMPING and for the Warrior all these things become 3x as hard because we always have to piggy back with someone because we cant solo crud.

I sure hope something in this helps us out though I am not going to hold my breath, soon my Druid will be lvl 50 too and as things are I will be switching mains because at least the druid has no real down and can solo and group.

I don't necessarily believe that warriors should be able to solo just as well as any other class. If you wanna solo then you should have went with a druid from the beginning. At the same time, however, I agree that I shouldn't be getting my arse handed to me by 2 dot greens and be at 40% life after the fight is over.

I also think that NPCs that cast abilities that nuke a certain % of your HP is bogus. I've been killed by 3 dot level 40's and 4 dot level 25 mobs (at level 50) because they use these types of abilities that suck 1/3 of my hp away each cast. Nothing more disconcerting than being nuked for 3K by a level 25 mob that isn't even a named Resist Check?