Prospecting for a non-gaming PC

GuyJantica · 06-25-2007, 08:23 PM

Hey, all. I'm in the process of considering a non-gaming build and I would appreciate advice on which components I might consider favoring over others (as, say, in a more traditional gaming build). Basically, the computer will be for numerical computation ala MATLab and various other math apps. The price range is around $1000 USD.

My initial thoughts are CPU and RAM will be paramount with GPU and HD falling back slightly. I don't really need to be able to do monster visualizations since the computations are purely numerical (calculating forces and such).

The portability afforded by a laptop would be nice, but there's no way I could hope to approach the power I'd like with just $1000. I'm also not married to the notion of making it a PC/Windows build. I've used some Macs in this frontier that were mighty impressive (though seemingly a tad expensive). A monitor is not necessary to include in the build price since I already have one that is adequate.

I'd welcome any insights you guys may have. I realize this is primarily a gaming hardware forum, but hardware knowledge is hardware knowledge.

Thanks a lot.

-GJ

rabb1t · 06-25-2007, 09:17 PM

[Computer] Working *beep*poot*squeak*beep*

K... here's what I'd probably do...

Abit AN-M2 Micro-ATX MB $87 - not familiar with that chipset
Athlon 64 X2 5000+ $160 - 65nm means lower heat production
Corsair XMS 2 gig DDR2-800 $83 post rebate x2 for 4 gig = $166
Evga 7600 GS $63
Apevia X-Qpack2 case/PSU $90
Logitech X-230 2.1 speakers $39
Western Digital Caviar SE16 250 gig hard drive $68
Lite-On DVD/CD burner $38
Logitech MX Revolution mouse $50 post rebate
Logitech black keyboard $8

Total = $ 769
(This does not include the OS)

Optional upgrade - Evga 7900 GS $125 post rebate - this has GDDR3 compared to the GDDR2 of the above, and 20 pipelines vs. 12

Be aware this is a Mini-ATX build, so I won't 100% swear on compatibility of parts.

An Intel Core 2 Duo build would be better, but I'm not sure on the Mini-ATX offerings. I'll do some more looking around.

Ok... Intel alts... again, these should work, no guarentees though...

Asus P5L-VM $89
Core 2 Duo E6600 $223
OCZ DDR2-667 2 gig kit $67 post rebate x2 = 4 gig $135

Total = $ 803

Ram is out of stock though. If you were looking "now" you could go with OCZ S.O.E. cammo style (same timings) $76 each

Of the two, the Intel version would likely be much more powerful for the $ spent.

Hopefully you won't run into any space issues with the clearance on the CPU cooler. I don't forsee any clearance problems anywhere else.

GuyJantica · 06-26-2007, 02:47 AM

Thanks, rabb1t. That's pretty similar to what I'd been considering. Price-wise those Micro-ATX boards are attractive, but for coming in so far under the wire it might just be worth it to bling the board up a notch.

(we need a spidey with a gold chain or something... and a grill)

Oh, and this probably won't happen until mid-to-late August so that'd give the CPU's a chance to come down (and the memory to go back up I guess)

Thanks again, rabb1t, I appreciate it. I'm still open to other ideas/configurations from others though.

-GJ

rabb1t · 06-26-2007, 03:00 AM

Well, the Micro-ATXs save you a small amount, but that isn't the real reason to get them. The smaller box is why you'd want the Micro-ATXs, which would be much more portable than a full sized box. Something like the Micro-ATX would give you a much lower cost than a laptop, but still be fairly portable.

Something like the (Intel based) Evga 122-CK-NF66-T1 at $99, currently $80 post rebate, would be a low-cost board you could use in a build like this if you were going full sized. So, you can quite easily get lower cost boards for a build like this in a full sized build. But again, with most full sized cases you will loose that portability you have with something like the Apevia case.

But, yeah, if you want to look at features and price, they are close enough you may as well just go with a full sized board. But, then you are also talking about a full sized box, and there are only a few cases that are smaller and good for portability, such as the Antec Super Lanboy, which doesn't really have all that great air-flow compared to something like the Antec 900. (It is also as expensive as the Apevia case and has no power supply, so there is an extra $100 you'd have to add on.) However, if you are just going to drop a lower power use core and lower power use GPU in there, airflow probably wouldn't be all that big of an issue.

rabb1t · 06-26-2007, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyJantica

(we need a spidey with a gold chain or something... and a grill)

yuck!

Slide · 06-26-2007, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyJantica

the computer will be for numerical computation ala MATLab and various other math apps. The price range is around $1000 USD.

I'd look at the Core 2 Duos or if your budget will stretch that far a quad core Xeon for numerical heavy lifting work. Would be very surprised if Matlab didn't handle multi cores.

GuyJantica · 06-26-2007, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabb1t

yuck!

Oh what won't the marketing whores do to cash in on popular IP?

Yeah, while I get what you mean about "more portable" it still doesn't seem worth it to not go full sized. If the computer were for me then I may consider it because, well, I'm a huge nerd and it wouldn't be the first time I've lugged a computer case around to other locations (and much bigger ones + 17" CRT at that). As it's actually for my girlfriend (and I can't really see her doing that... sexy as it may be) I think it'll end up being a static station... but who knows maybe she'll go for it.

As for the quad Xeon... heh, that may press the price envelope a bit too high. And MATLab does support multicores, but only the latest release and then only for a limited set of functions (like FFT). There are packages out there that people have written to parallelize certain functions, but that's really beyond the scope of what she's trying to do at this point. Thanks though, Slide, I do appreciate your input.

When I was an undergrad I worked with MATLab on a project with a professor doing some nerdy physics modeling. I think I remember her telling me she had a Mac at home that she special ordered to have a fancy math co-processor. Poor me with the lab computer waited 30 mins for a simulation to finish while she said hers took no time at all.

Anybody know more about something like that? I can't imagine it'd fit inside a $1000 budget, but it might still be useful information.

Thanks again, guys.

-GJ

Slide · 06-26-2007, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyJantica

As for the quad Xeon... heh, that may press the price envelope a bit too high. And MATLab does support multicores, but only the latest release and then only for a limited set of functions (like FFT). There are packages out there that people have written to parallelize certain functions, but that's really beyond the scope of what she's trying to do at this point. Thanks though, Slide, I do appreciate your input.

You'd be surprised, quad Xeons aren't that expensive - about double the price of the equiv C2D. The reason I pointed out the Intels is various benchmarks - they were fairly similar to Athlons until you did Maya, then the performance was vastly bigger. Maya is very heavy on floating point, indicating the Intel would be better at what you need it for.

I'm surprised Matlab doesn't parallelize more, but then again can see why.

CPU's have had onboard FPU's since the first Pentiums

Chae668 · 06-26-2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabb1t

yuck!

why no make goblin box?

goblin better than stupid spider... stupid glowy eyes.. stupid sticky web.. stupid generic black case...

goblin strong. goblin better than stupid spider.

make goblin box. work good.

may need air freshener, but get used to it.

rabb1t · 06-26-2007, 03:12 PM

I could swear I saw something about a new co-processor coming out, but I can’t seem to find anything on it now. I think it may have been designed for one of the new slot types in the works. (The Intel counter to the AMD shared hyperthreaded slot.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slide

You'd be surprised, quad Xeons aren't that expensive - about double the price of the equiv C2D.

What am I missing?

Xeon X3220 $565
Kentsfield core
Quad core 2.4 gig
1066 FSB
L1 cache 64k+64k
L2 cache 2 x 4 meg
65 nm

Core 2 Quad Q6600 $485
Kentsfield core
Quad core 2.4 gig
1066 FSB
L1 cache 64k+64k
L2 cache 2 x 4 meg
65 nm

Looks to me like the only difference right now is that the Xeon server core is $80 more.

As previously mentioned, it is estimated that after the July 22nd price drop the Q6600 will be ~$260. (Though I’m betting it won’t immediately drop to that price, but will slowly settle there after about a week post price drop.)

PS - Oh, and yeah, the Micro-ATX boards and boxes don't really offer you much in terms of portability. I'd rather go with an Antec Super Lanboy myself and keep full size functionality and just put the hand straps on there if I wanted to lug it to a lan party. The box is super light, and even fully loaded it will weigh less than an empty steel case.

GuyJantica · 06-26-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slide

You'd be surprised, quad Xeons aren't that expensive - about double the price of the equiv C2D. The reason I pointed out the Intels is various benchmarks - they were fairly similar to Athlons until you did Maya, then the performance was vastly bigger. Maya is very heavy on floating point, indicating the Intel would be better at what you need it for.

I'm surprised Matlab doesn't parallelize more, but then again can see why.

CPU's have had onboard FPU's since the first Pentiums

Yeah I just took a look at Newegg for the Xeons and found one for about $350. Still, I'm not so sure all that multi-threaded potential would do her any good really. I'm likely to go the C2D route come August.

I understand processors have had co-processors for a while, but what I was wondering about was an even more specialized sort of CPU that is commercially available. I haven't been able to find much, but I haven't really looked into that too much yet (have to actually work when I'm at work at least some of the time).

-GJ

rabb1t · 06-26-2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyJantica

Yeah I just took a look at Newegg for the Xeons and found one for about $350.

Read the fine print - dual core.

GuyJantica · 06-26-2007, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabb1t

Read the fine print - dual core.

Yeah I was just looking for one of the cheapest Xeons I could with more than one core.

Slide · 06-26-2007, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabb1t

What am I missing?

European prices I imagine.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 "LGA775 Conroe" 2.13GHz (1066FSB) - £104.99
ntel Xeon 3200 Series X3210 "LGA775 Kentsfield" 2.13GHz (1066FSB) - £244.99

rabb1t · 06-26-2007, 05:03 PM

Odd. I don't think that one was on NewEgg. Provantage shows a $458 price. (NewEgg is currently down, can't check.)

Slide · 06-26-2007, 05:13 PM

Those quad core Xeons are just hitting that sweet price/performance ratio atm - especially if you do stuff that will take advantage of multicore. They are pound for poke costing the same as C2D's but come bundled with better onboard RAM etc and apparently they are monster overclockers.

They cost less than I paid for my socket 939 X2 4200, and are no brainers if you have software that splits across multiple CPU's.

GuyJantica · 06-26-2007, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slide

Those quad core Xeons are just hitting that sweet price/performance ratio atm - especially if you do stuff that will take advantage of multicore. They are pound for poke costing the same as C2D's but come bundled with better onboard RAM etc and apparently they are monster overclockers.

They cost less than I paid for my socket 939 X2 4200, and are no brainers if you have software that splits across multiple CPU's.

How did this become a multi-thread/pro quad thread?

Slide · 06-26-2007, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyJantica

How did this become a multi-thread/pro quad thread?

probably something to do with asking for a CPU heavy comp on a hardware forum?

rabb1t · 06-26-2007, 05:49 PM

That and the price drops coming at the end of next month making quad very worth considering, particularly for a buisnesy PC.

evilsofa · 06-26-2007, 07:08 PM

There is absolutely no difference between the Q6600 and the Xeon X3220. They are the same chip, just labeled differently. Simply get whichever one is cheaper. There used to be more difference between server CPUs and consumer CPUs but now - not so much.

Quoting an article I posted in another thread: "The upcoming E6050 family includes E6550, E6750 and E6850 with core frequencies ranging from 2.33GHz, 2.66GHz and 3GHz. Pricing per thousand is US$163, US$183 and US$266 respectively – about 40% lower than the current 1066MHz CPU lineup."

The E6700 is currently $317 on newegg. 40 percent of $317 is $126.80, so $317 minus 40 percent is $191 (rounding up), implying that newegg's markup is $8. That in turn suggests the Q6600 and E6850 will be on newegg for around $275. The flaw in my string of assumptions is that newegg is getting them for the "per thousand" price - who knows what their deal with intel really is?