[Elyan]

I'm trying to upgrade my brothers computer for dx 10. anyone know if this card is any good? how does it compare to the 8800gts 320?

[rhagz]

There are tons of benchmarks and comparisons available on the net.

It's really weak though, all things considered. It is a really scaled down 8 series card and DX9 performance is about on par with a 7800. It simply isn't going to have the horsepower to run an actual DX10 game at settings that do DX10 justice.

Despite being Canadian (blegh!), this is a pretty good test that covers the 7600, 7800, 8600GT and GTS and the 8800GTS.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/hardw...oc-review.html

[Malosar]

If your going for budget but want new tech, I really wouldn't consider anything less than a 8600GTS or a 2600XT. But if you seriously want to run DX10 games with any kind of decent framerate, I'd say the 8800GTS 320Mb is your minimum.

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by Elyan

anyone know if this card is any good?

Not really, no. You don't want to go below the 8600 GTS. (Looks like Malosar covered that already. )

how does it compare to the 8800gts 320?

Kind of like comparing a low-end regular car to a golf cart. Seriously. (Well, ok, maybe more like one of those 'around the city' cars like you see in the Wii commercials.)

Originally Posted by rhagz

It's really weak though, all things considered. It is a really scaled down 8 series card and DX9 performance is about on par with a 7800.

From what I've seen the 8600 GTS is about there, but the GT is closer to a 7600 than it is a 7800/7900.

It really is a tough call though, depending on what resolution he plays at, what games he will play, and what the rest of his system is. I'd say go with the GTS, but if he's playing things like Diablo 2 it won't really matter.

this is a pretty good test

Skimmed the page, they are using OCed versions of the 8600s. Looking at the NewEgg prices for the BFG OCed cards, you'd be better upgrading an entire card rank instead of getting the OCed version. (Their GT is nearly as much as Evga's GTS, and their GTS is nearly as much as an 8800 GTS w/320.)

Here is an article at AnandTech. As you can see the 8600 GTS is near the 7900 GS, sometimes close to the 7950 GT, while the 8600 GT is a bit below, being somewhere between a 7600 GT and 7900 GS.

It does look like it would be ok at lower res, such as 1024x768, but again, I'd recommend no lower than the 8600 GTS (for a gamer). It is a bit more, but worth the increase. 8600 GT $100 post rebate, 8600 GTS $150 post rebate. Of course, the 8800 GTS w/320 is way more powerful, but it is also a bit more at around $260 post rebate.

Tom's Hardware article on the 8600 GTS/GT.

Don't forget, he'll have to have a PSU that is 400w+ with 22 amps or higher on the 12v lines to run that 8600. (400w+ w/26 amps for an 8800 GTS.)

And, as always, he will only be as fast as his slowest part. If he's got 512 meg, or a slow CPU, the GPU will only help so much.

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by rabb1t

From what I've seen the 8600 GTS is about there

It still only has 32 stream processors. It is a neutered 8800 and no clock speed boost is going to counteract that and the 128bit memory interface.

[evilsofa]

HardOCP reviews the MSI NX8600 GT OC Edition. It's an interesting card because for $120, it's competing well against vanilla 8600GTS cards that cost $150 and up. If your friend's budget is really strict, that would be the 8600GT to get. Power requirement is a 350W PSU with 22a on the 12V rail so you might not even need a new PSU.

If your friend can spend more, look at the eVGA 8800GTS 320MB for $260. This would require a new PSU. The FSP Blue Storm II is an excellent PSU for $87, so that would be a total of $347. When shopping for PSUs, look for an efficiency of 80 percent and a price starting at $70.

To recap:
MSI 8600GT OC $120, possibly no PSU cost
8600GTS $150 and up, probably need new PSU
eVGA 8800GTS 320MB $260, will need new PSU.

Performance: the 8800GTS 320MB is fully twice as fast as the vanilla 8600GTS. The 8600GT, when OCed like MSI did, can get very close to vanilla 8600GTS speed. To me, this kind of puts the 8600GTS between a rock and a hard place.

You should post what information you can get about your brother's PSU.

Edit: forgot to link the HardOCP review, here.

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by rhagz

It still only has 32 stream processors. It is a neutered 8800 and no clock speed boost is going to counteract that and the 128bit memory interface.

Yeah, but in most cases the jump from $100 to $150 is a lot more feasable for peeps than the jump from $150 to $260.

If they can afford it, sure, jump to an 8800 GTS, but I get the feeling the system in question is something that was built circa 3 years ago and is probably running in 1024x768.

Originally Posted by evilsofa

HardOCP reviews the MSI NX8600 GT OC Edition, here. It's an interesting card because for $120, it's competing well against vanilla 8600GTS cards that cost $150 and up.

Be careful with MSI. I believe they are one of the manufacturers that only offer 1 year coverage policies. *checks site* Yup. 1 year. So, as long as it doesn't explode it's a good deal. But if it does, and that's after 1 year, you are outa luck.

This would require a new PSU.

Maybe, maybe not. It hasn't been mentioned what the brother's current system parts are.

Note that from my check with Evga's site, they recommend a 400w PSU for the 8600 GTS anyways (350w with the GT), so the difference in power is the amps, being 22a for the 8600 GTS or 26a for the 8800 GTSs.

To me, this kind of puts the 8600GTS between a rock and a hard place.

Yeah, it looks like the only differences between the 8600 GT and GTS are the speeds. Unlike other generational differences, such as from the 8600 to the 8800 GTS or to the GTX where there are architectural changes. (Though it looks like the Evga 8600 GTS has a better cooler than the GT.)

It just means you have to do more price and stat comparisons and ignore the sufix for the 8600s if you are looking at OCed vs. normal.

[evilsofa]

Originally Posted by rabb1t

Yeah, it looks like the only differences between the 8600 GT and GTS are the speeds. Unlike other generational differences, such as from the 8600 to the 8800 GTS or to the GTX where there are architectural changes. (Though it looks like the Evga 8600 GTS has a better cooler than the GT.)

The HardOCP article (which I forgot to link, my apologies) explains that the 8600GT does not require a 6-pin power connector, while the 8600GTS does. That's a critical difference.

PCI-Express cards can pull 75W from the PCI-E slot, and if more is required, you need 6-pin power connectors which can supply an additional 75W each. Therefore, the 8600GT gets a max of 75W to use, while the 8600GTS gets a max of 150W.

A vanilla 8600GT pulls 43W while a vanilla 8600GTS pulls 71W. This is why the 8600GT can be OCed to very nearly the speed of a vanilla 8600GTS, but no more than that because there is no way to increase the power consumption beyond that.

[Elyan]

Originally Posted by rabb1t

Not really, no. You don't want to go below the 8600 GTS. (Looks like Malosar covered that already. )



Kind of like comparing a low-end regular car to a golf cart. Seriously. (Well, ok, maybe more like one of those 'around the city' cars like you see in the Wii commercials.)



From what I've seen the 8600 GTS is about there, but the GT is closer to a 7600 than it is a 7800/7900.

It really is a tough call though, depending on what resolution he plays at, what games he will play, and what the rest of his system is. I'd say go with the GTS, but if he's playing things like Diablo 2 it won't really matter.



Skimmed the page, they are using OCed versions of the 8600s. Looking at the NewEgg prices for the BFG OCed cards, you'd be better upgrading an entire card rank instead of getting the OCed version. (Their GT is nearly as much as Evga's GTS, and their GTS is nearly as much as an 8800 GTS w/320.)

Here is an article at AnandTech. As you can see the 8600 GTS is near the 7900 GS, sometimes close to the 7950 GT, while the 8600 GT is a bit below, being somewhere between a 7600 GT and 7900 GS.

It does look like it would be ok at lower res, such as 1024x768, but again, I'd recommend no lower than the 8600 GTS (for a gamer). It is a bit more, but worth the increase. 8600 GT $100 post rebate, 8600 GTS $150 post rebate. Of course, the 8800 GTS w/320 is way more powerful, but it is also a bit more at around $260 post rebate.

Tom's Hardware article on the 8600 GTS/GT.

Don't forget, he'll have to have a PSU that is 400w+ with 22 amps or higher on the 12v lines to run that 8600. (400w+ w/26 amps for an 8800 GTS.)

And, as always, he will only be as fast as his slowest part. If he's got 512 meg, or a slow CPU, the GPU will only help so much.

This helped me out. thank you. he is only 10 so I'm not so sure he needs an 8800gtx like mine. his parents are paying for the computer and i'm just not sure that they want to spend 260 on a gfx card. the 150$ 8600gts sounds like a great plan to me and if its not enough, then we'll use the evga upgrade thing for the 8800gts in a few months. maybe for a christmas present.

I'm going with a quadcore when the prices drop so he's getting my e6600 and i'm getting him a 500 watt psu. 2gb of ram. Thanks again for all the help.

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by evilsofa

explains that the 8600GT does not require a 6-pin power connector, while the 8600GTS does. That's a critical difference.

While it doesn't require the power from the PSU and it doesn't use a power cable is important, I'm fairly certain the PSU requirement still remains. (Be it delivered by cable or through the MB.) So, you'd still need to clear the PSU requirements even though said GPU doesn't have a power plug.

Yup, checking the Evga 8600 GT card it too doesn't have the plug, but their requirements are listed as 350w+ with 22 amps.

But yeah, that may be important in that some peeps have PSUs that are strong enough, but lack a PCIe line.

Originally Posted by Elyan

he is only 10

At 10 you have a fair chance of putting a Wii inside the PC case and he wouldn't know. (Of course, I think I was 12 when I was installing the new ram memory cart my dad got for the Atari 800, so I should maybe just hush. )

I'm sure that something like an 8600 GTS with that core and a 1680x1050 monitor will probably do just fine for him till he's around 14 and starts demanding the uber leet haxor rigs for his raids.

[evilsofa]

Originally Posted by Elyan

the 150$ 8600gts sounds like a great plan to me and if its not enough, then we'll use the evga upgrade thing for the 8800gts in a few months. maybe for a christmas present.

That sounds good to me, because the better warranty and Step-Up service on the eVGA is worth the $30. Just remember that the eVGA Step-Up program is only good for 90 days after you buy the original card. So, 90 days from the last week of July would be the last week of October.

[meStevo]

Actually just picked up the one you linked to Rabb1t, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130085

Fiancee complaining about misc video problems on her Dell (e510 I believe) playing WoW... has a 7300LE and I'd have to buy a new CPU cooling solution or mod the case to get anything nicer, not to mention a power supply if i got anything much fancier, so opted for the cheaper route and thoughts of using the step up program in a couple months if we want to perhaps build her something new altogether.

It was delivered today, looking forward to surprising her with it, I expect it will be more or less sufficient for all her gaming needs (WoW, Need for Speed Hot Pursuit 1, Flatout 2)

[Elyan]

Originally Posted by meStevo

Actually just picked up the one you linked to Rabb1t, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130085

Fiancee complaining about misc video problems on her Dell (e510 I believe) playing WoW... has a 7300LE and I'd have to buy a new CPU cooling solution or mod the case to get anything nicer, not to mention a power supply if i got anything much fancier, so opted for the cheaper route and thoughts of using the step up program in a couple months if we want to perhaps build her something new altogether.

It was delivered today, looking forward to surprising her with it, I expect it will be more or less sufficient for all her gaming needs (WoW, Need for Speed Hot Pursuit 1, Flatout 2)

Let me know how you like it. I was going to order one for my brother next week.

[Zenthious]

Originally Posted by meStevo

Actually just picked up the one you linked to Rabb1t, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130085

Fiancee complaining about misc video problems on her Dell (e510 I believe) playing WoW... has a 7300LE and I'd have to buy a new CPU cooling solution or mod the case to get anything nicer, not to mention a power supply if i got anything much fancier, so opted for the cheaper route and thoughts of using the step up program in a couple months if we want to perhaps build her something new altogether.

It was delivered today, looking forward to surprising her with it, I expect it will be more or less sufficient for all her gaming needs (WoW, Need for Speed Hot Pursuit 1, Flatout 2)

I started out using a 7300LE when i first assembled my new machine. I had to go back several revisions of drivers before I found one that worked perfectly. Try an older driver. I believe the one I found was in the 70's somewhere, but that's been a while ago. They may have since fixed this in the 9X.X versions.

Also, i'll add to this thread that i'm using the 8600GT (GIGABYTE GV-NX86T256D). It's actually a pretty good board. It runs vanguard fine, and seems to work great for everything else I do. For me, I probably won't bother going to an 8800. The 8600GT is enough that I will probably wait for the series 9 before I consider another upgrade.

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by meStevo

Actually just picked up the one you linked to Rabb1t, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130085. Fiancee complaining about misc video problems on her Dell (e510 I believe) ... has a 7300LE and I'd have to buy a new ... so opted for the cheaper route and thoughts of using the step up program in a couple months if we want to perhaps build her something new altogether.

You may want to seriously consider doing a full build if you have the knowledge and she's doing enough gaming. Doing a quick search I find the Dell E510 specs here, which appears to be a P4 at around 3.0 gig speed, up to 4 gig, so probably you have 1 or 2, and a 300w PSU.

If you look at my systems page you will find that even the lowest cost build, the "Snowshoe", is $785 for the system pre-rebates (which includes an 8600 GTS, so if you used your GT, that'd be -$165, or $620 pre-rebates). I don't know the exact specs on your Dell E510, but it is very likely that even the "Snowshoe" would be way better since it has dual core, 64-bit, 2 gig, and would be upgradeable to almost any future products. You could easily upgrade the core to another AM2 core, or get a higher-end series 8. You wouldn't be able to fit a GTX though, due to the length, but the 450w PSU would be sufficient for a GTS.

Ya may want to give a new build a look. Even the lower cost builds you'll find here and there would be cheaper than upgrading your current Dell. (Plus, if you did a full build and had an OS you could use, you could sell the old system.) And, if you decided to spend more, then you'd have even better options.

[meStevo]

Ya, I considered a rebuild, but we're gearing up for a wedding (04/06/08 will be here before we know it) and settling into a new home, so a lot of other things going on. Spending just over $100 to make her gaming experience so much better (she was ecstatic playing WoW without as much hitching and whatnot) was the best route given the circumstances.

I'm knowledgeable enough, my last few computers i've built myself, hers was originally a deal from Dell for like $600 a couple years ago (was a $1500+ build before discounts), included 19in panel.

My box is the gamer of the house, Antec 900, eVGA 8800 GTS 640, e6600, 2405FPW, etc.

She's more than happy, and its a worthy upgrade for her little box. Anything much more than that would have required case modification because of the CPU cooling solution as well as a replacement PSU, not to mention the various bottlenecks preventing good use of a more powerful card.

This card will work great for her now, and when we build something new we wont HAVE to get a VGA card asap, instead of what feels like the norm for the last several years of 'new system, new video card'.

She just doesn't need anything bleeding edge.... yet.

/babble off.

[Loopy]

Originally Posted by meStevo

My box is the gamer of the house, Antec 900, eVGA 8800 GTS 640, e6600, 2405FPW, etc.
/babble off.

Don't mean to sidetrack your discussion but I'll be upgrading after the 22 (barring any unforseen finacial hiccups), waiting for the intel price drop. I already have a Antec 900 case I bought a couple months ago when the price was good, and a Dell 2407FPW, and I pretty much know what I'm going to be buy for everything else, but I and having a problem deciding wether I want to get the 8800GTS or the 8800GTX.

Do you run your 24" monitor at 1920 x 1200 and if you do does the video card handle it well? The GTX is just about $200 more than the GTS and even though I CAN afford the GTX will it really make that much of a difference?

[rabb1t]

It really depends on what kind of settings you like in games. Yes, the GTS with 640 meg would do fine at 1920x1200. Do you need a GTX? Well, that's tough to tell right now for several reasons. Right now we don't really have any true DX10 games to really do a good comparison. (Also note that things like Quantum Physics aren't used in games, so we don't know how they will perform differently with that.) Also, right now, both cards are more than enough power for current games. Heck even the 8800 GTS w/320 meg is plenty powerful enough at 1920x1200 in most cases.

So... I don't know. If you plan on doing the current batch of games that are just around the corner that will really push things - Crysis, Hellgate:London, Age of Conan, Unreal Tournament 3 - you will probably want to consider a GTX, just to be sure. If you are doing older games, like maybe EverQuest 2 and WoW and Doom 3, you probably will be more than fine with a GTS.

The Evga cards aren't quite $200 off. There is a difference of $150 between them.

Evga 8800 GTS w/640 meg $360 post rebate
Evga 8800 GTX $509 post rebate

Oh, PS, if you do go Evga, don't forget you have the 90 day step up policy. So, if you did get something within that time and you felt it was underpowered you could upgrade from the GTS to the GTX. But again, if you were planning on those games, I'd recommend a GTX to be sure.

Don't forget you can always run a comparison at Tom's

[meStevo]

I run at the native resolution, so yeah 1900x1200.

I chose the 640mb over the 320mb because one review said they couldnt even run Oblivion on the highest settings without it crashing, and I wasn't going to have any of that.

Given that I run at the higher resolution than most would on a non-WS montior I opted for the more expensive card.

GTX was too expensive for me :-)

Like the furry eared one said, we really don't know for now how effective the GTX is going to truly be. I got my GTS knowing its performance on todays games, and it has met and often surpassed my expectations on most of them.

It runs the Lost Planet DX10 demo 'so so' and once fleshed out tweaked I am sure it will run great. It ran Vanguard like a champ, and I can play Everquest 2 with more or less all settings on max. I dialed it back a little so i got a little less 'ooh and ah' for much more playablity and FPS.

Very happy with my system, even though I got my e6600 when it was still $313, but according to the windows performance analysis rating thingy it is my weakest link.

On Vista, the system weighs in at 5.9.

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by meStevo

It runs the Lost Planet DX10 demo 'so so'

I wouldn't use Lost Planet, nor Call of Juarez, to gauge DX10. Neither were designed with it in mind, both were just 'add it on as a patch' thing, which never is really much of an improvement.

I'd say we won't see true performance until true DX10 designed games show up - Hellgate:London, Crysis, BioShock, maybe Age of Conan (it's had a lot of comments on jerkiness by reviewers).

but according to the windows performance analysis rating thingy it is my weakest link.

I'd question the validity of such a system if that's the case. Sounds like it is basing its decision off of CPU core speed, which isn't really accurate.

Then again, if you are using below, and your "weak link" is a 5, that's not a low rating.

On Vista, the system weighs in at 5.9.

That's not a low rating. They were originally predicting that nothing would go over a rating of 5, and early predictions were saying most high-end systems around launch would be between 4 and 5. I've heard reports that some GPUs and other parts get into the 6+ range.