[Phinius]

Alot of people complain about class balance in solo play, particularly about certain classes being able to solo mobs many dots above what they should be able to, and rightly so.

Now this wouldn't really fix the warriors current problem of being an underpowered soloer, but it would lessen the gap between warrior's soloability and say, a necro.

Some mobs have been made immune to fear, or snare to prevent kiting, but all one has to do to avoid this is either get a speed buff, or use their own. For example my Psionicist has Acceleration and Mass Acceleration that I can simply cycle through as they are on seperate cooldowns.

So why has Vanguard not implemented something similar to what EQ did, Summoning mobs, "call of the zero!" Seems a simple and very effective fix to put classes in their place. Has their been some sort of pre-announced disclusion of this type of ability?

I'm sure many of you are familiar with the ability, but for those who arent: If you were to move too far away from a mob with this ability, it will instantly summon you in front of it, not allowing you to kite or run. Also, if you are in a group against such a mob, and you gain aggro over your tank, it will summon you as well, and begin beating on you.

I suppose this could be a problem in regards to rescue abilities, as you would likely not have enough time to rescue a caster being summoned before they are dead.

In the least it could be applied to named mobs 4 dot+, if not all 4 dot+ mobs. It would drastically change how the game is played imo, maybe even too much.

/shrug, something to chew on.

[Sasami]

It’s not going to fix the Necro when the pet tanks but it will have big impact on Bard, Ranger, Sorcerer and others which are far below the ability of Necros. It will become probably the number one death trap for Bards which just tried to travel somewhere and the invisibility does bug like usual. It’s going to create more issues then it will solve. I have no problem if you give this ability to a named but give it every mob with more then 4 dots will create some serious issues.

[bylbok]

Originally Posted by Sasami

It’s not going to fix the Necro when the pet tanks but it will have big impact on Bard, Ranger, Sorcerer and others which are far below the ability of Necros. It will become probably the number one death trap for Bards which just tried to travel somewhere and the invisibility does bug like usual. It’s going to create more issues then it will solve. I have no problem if you give this ability to a named but give it every mob with more then 4 dots will create some serious issues.

Summoning in EQ1 used to work only when the mob was under a % of hp so it didn't affect travels... .
It is a good idea, but killing the solo abilitie of casters on nameds will be even more lost subs and i don't think SoE can afford it atm.
Lets just hope they add it on raid mobs at less.

[Mortifera]

There are many things they must do (IMHO mind you ) to re-order things a bit on the adventuring front. Namely:

1- Nerf some classes (sorry, but some abilities are too powerfull in their current state no matter what you do to the mobs). I don't like nerfing more than any of you, but objectively there are some cases where this is needed.

Rest applies to 4+ dot mobs:

2- Augment mob Hit Points by 50% (this also reduces leveling speed, yay!).

3- Give mobs generally more abilities like snare, fear, stun, riposte, flurry, gravity flux, ae feign death, etc.

4- Augment resists somewhat on certain lines of spells.

5- The more dots a mob has, the more powerfull their abilities are. 6 dots should summon, mez, charm players, etc.

6- Nerf some pulling abilities like lull (don't render them useless, just longer recast, 30% chance to get resisted and aggro the mobs.

7- Named mobs should have yet another 50% HP increase and all abilities at their disposals. They should pose a serious challenge to a full group of equal level.

I am sure I forgot a few things, but that's basically how I feel about it.

Note that some classes would STILL be able to solo SOME 4 dots as their skillset are simply better geared towards it, but it would NOT be time well spent xp-wise. 5 dots+ would probably have too much HP and abilities to be soloable.

My 2cp !! Rawr!

[Sunrider]

I have mentioned this once before here. All sony need to do is to give high level mobs a maximum ranged attack. Even if snared and kited they could hit from distance doing the full dmg as they would at close range...end of problem.

[Cobalty2004]

Originally Posted by Mortifera

There are many things they must do (IMHO mind you ) to re-order things a bit on the adventuring front. Namely:

1- Nerf some classes (sorry, but some abilities are too powerfull in their current state no matter what you do to the mobs). I don't like nerfing more than any of you, but objectively there are some cases where this is needed.

Rest applies to 4+ dot mobs:

2- Augment mob Hit Points by 50% (this also reduces leveling speed, yay!).

3- Give mobs generally more abilities like snare, fear, stun, riposte, flurry, gravity flux, ae feign death, etc.

4- Augment resists somewhat on certain lines of spells.

5- The more dots a mob has, the more powerfull their abilities are. 6 dots should summon, mez, charm players, etc.

6- Nerf some pulling abilities like lull (don't render them useless, just longer recast, 30% chance to get resisted and aggro the mobs.

7- Named mobs should have yet another 50% HP increase and all abilities at their disposals. They should pose a serious challenge to a full group of equal level.

I am sure I forgot a few things, but that's basically how I feel about it.

Note that some classes would STILL be able to solo SOME 4 dots as their skillset are simply better geared towards it, but it would NOT be time well spent xp-wise. 5 dots+ would probably have too much HP and abilities to be soloable.

My 2cp !! Rawr!

Mob HPs should not be used to lengthen leveling time. Just reduce xp per kill.

But named mobs should be much harder. Mobs need to use more debuff/CC type spells on players..

[Mortifera]

Originally Posted by Sunrider

I have mentioned this once before here. All sony need to do is to give high level mobs a maximum ranged attack. Even if snared and kited they could hit from distance doing the full dmg as they would at close range...end of problem.

Well that would still not prevent people from Duoing 6 Dots Named mobs, like I have done numerous time with a cleric... that is still wrong IMO heh. I beleive a more "across the board" change is needed.

[Mortifera]

Originally Posted by Cobalty2004

Mob HPs should not be used to lengthen leveling time. Just reduce xp per kill.

I am not sure I understand what you mean, Cobalty.

If a mob has 50% more HP, then it will take longer to kill and thus you will gain less XP / hour, which in turn lenghtens the time it takes to level?

Reducing XP per kill without changing the mob's HP would also produce that effect, but I still think that 4+ dot mobs should have more HP. With a full group, even if some skills were nerfed, fights takes but a blur, like an arcade game which I'm not in favor of.

[Illusive]

Originally Posted by Mortifera

Well that would still not prevent people from Duoing 6 Dots Named mobs, like I have done numerous time with a cleric... that is still wrong IMO heh. I beleive a more "across the board" change is needed.

it doesn't stop classes that can heal from soloing said mobs either, or pet classes too.

At this point the entire game would need to be re-vamped / adjusted to stop players from soloing 5-6 dot named mobs.

I dont know of ANYONE who wants to play another game(what it would become) or go through that large a change 7months after release.

You can either accept that some classes are good soloers and some are not, or move on. The DOT system has been thrown out the window for a long time.

[Mortezzah]

Originally Posted by Illusive

it doesn't stop classes that can heal from soloing said mobs either, or pet classes too.

At this point the entire game would need to be re-vamped / adjusted to stop players from soloing 5-6 dot named mobs.

I dont know of ANYONE who wants to play another game(what it would become) or go through that large a change 7months after release.

You can either accept that some classes are good soloers and some are not, or move on. The DOT system has been thrown out the window for a long time.

Simple fix. Posted multiple times.

On all 4/5/6 dot mobs:
Increase resists to snare/fear/kite/root (and charms to fight other mobs -- not generic charms).
Give player summon to mobs
Increase interrupt rate on self-heals.

That would leave the 1-2-3 dot mobs as is, still giving significant increased soloability-ease to Necros et all on 3 dots and such.

Then, 4, 5, 6 dot mobs become group based.

It should happen -- its just a matter of when.

[Sunrider]

Originally Posted by Mortifera

Well that would still not prevent people from Duoing 6 Dots Named mobs, like I have done numerous time with a cleric... that is still wrong IMO heh. I beleive a more "across the board" change is needed.

How else would you solo or duo a lvl 50 6 dot mob? you're certainly not going to tank it now are you?. What have we been talking about for the past month or so on the subject of soloing and kiting 6 dots. If a lvl 50 6 dot mob have a ranged attack no one is going to solo or duo it....period.

[Illusive]

Originally Posted by Mortezzah

Simple fix. Posted multiple times.

On all 4/5/6 dot mobs:
Increase resists to snare/fear/kite/root (and charms to fight other mobs -- not generic charms).
Give player summon to mobs
Increase interrupt rate on self-heals.

That would leave the 1-2-3 dot mobs as is, still giving significant increased soloability-ease to Necros et all on 3 dots and such.

Then, 4, 5, 6 dot mobs become group based.

It should happen -- its just a matter of when.

I dont know about you but when I kill 4/5/6 dot mobs i never use snare/fear/root

its not that simple a thing to do. it may seem simple to you but balancing mobs is pretty difficult.

[Mortifera]

Originally Posted by Sunrider

How else would you solo or duo a lvl 50 6 dot mob? you're certainly not going to tank it now are you?. What have we been talking about for the past month or so on the subject of soloing and kiting 6 dots. If a lvl 50 6 dot mob have a ranged attack no one is going to solo or duo it....period.

I must not understand what you mean... I don't see why a 6 dot could not be duoed if it has a ranged attack...

I've tanked 6 dots named while a cleric was healing me and hitting the mob too. Granted I haven't tried duoing lvl 53 purple ones and such, but the point is that at any level, be it 25, 37 or 46, a boss mob should require a decent group, not just 2 people.

Having a ranged attack does nothing since I'm tanking the mob. Like I said, maybe I don't understand what you meant; I need further explanations heh.

To me there are more than just the "solo" issues. When I have to solo with my warrior, it does suck because I have to sit for 2 mins to get my HPs back, but I play this game to group, not solo. And group-wise there are a lot of issues as well.

You don't really need a tank for most of the content; mobs die quickly in a blur; mobs don't have special abilities (or if they do, they have no effect LOL); etc. Anyhow, I'm going a bit off topic from your remark

[Mortifera]

Originally Posted by Illusive

it doesn't stop classes that can heal from soloing said mobs either, or pet classes too.

If mobs (4+ dots) had a lot more HP, it would prevent a lot of casters from soloing them. They would run out of mana and be crushed.

If some mobs could charm, fear, snare, summon, gravity flux, etc.. it would prevent a ton of people from soloing them as well.

Originally Posted by Illusive

At this point the entire game would need to be re-vamped / adjusted to stop players from soloing 5-6 dot named mobs.

Yes, the whole conning system must be brought in line with what it was supposed to be originally. That is, if I recall correctly: 1-2 dots = solo content; 3 dots = small group (and some powerfull solo classes); 4-6 dots = group content (meaning more than 2-3 people).

Originally Posted by Illusive

I dont know of ANYONE who wants to play another game(what it would become) or go through that large a change 7months after release.

EQ2 changed it's combat system many times and they are still surviving.

Maybe I am alone (but I don't think so), but if they would re-align the mobs to make them tougher, longer battles, real group content and challenging boss mobs, I would enjoy the game a lot more.

So now you at least know ONE person

Originally Posted by Illusive

You can either accept that some classes are good soloers and some are not, or move on. The DOT system has been thrown out the window for a long time.

Having some classes that are good at soloing and others who are not so good has nothing to do with what is supposed to be GROUP content.

There will always be some classes that solo better than others simply due to their skill set (ie: necromancers, classes than can charm, etc.). However, they should be better soloer of SOLO content, not solo group boss mobs.

So, seriously, I don't have to "move on" . I'm still of the opinion they need to do a serious group mob revamp. I like VG, I am still playing it despite the many issues. But I will enjoy it a LOT more if they do the revamp.

[Sasami]

I could come up with some changes which would make it more difficult to solo and duo high dot mob. I can not think of anything which would make it impossible but without changing the game experience negative for everyone.

I think the overall encounter difficulty is to low with high dot encounter. I would not mind if they give the 6 dot some specials and increase the HP of most 5+ dot. I think 4 dot is currently small group content (if they don’t come in large groups and the player have decent equipment and skill), but do I have a problem with that? No.

[Requiem]

I think that the entire concept of designing and labeling mobs as elite, x dots/arrows, whatever the particular nomenclature, is the wrong way to go altogether personally. Why has every MMO adopted this policy? Where was the problem that caused this sudden and complete switch?

I don't remember thinking, "Boy, I sure wish there was some sort of rigid design policy regarding "group" and "solo" mobs that makes everything black and white. It would be awesome if every mob was labeled with it's classification within this system as well" while I was playing EQ1.

Think about the impact these design policies have on the entire game, it's huge.

Why?

Edit - This may seem a bit off-topic, but what originally got me thinking along these lines is that every time I see you guys on here complaining about class balance it's ALWAYS centered around the number of dots this class or that class can solo. While Vanguard seems to have managed to implement these policies in a bad enough way that they make little to no difference in many cases, I assume what they were actually after was a more rigid system. In the case of other games like wow and especially EQ2 the effects of the system are very rigid and extremely far-reaching in terms of impact on the game itself.

[Illusive]

Originally Posted by Mortifera

If mobs (4+ dots) had a lot more HP, it would prevent a lot of casters from soloing them. They would run out of mana and be crushed.

If some mobs could charm, fear, snare, summon, gravity flux, etc.. it would prevent a ton of people from soloing them as well.



Yes, the whole conning system must be brought in line with what it was supposed to be originally. That is, if I recall correctly: 1-2 dots = solo content; 3 dots = small group (and some powerfull solo classes); 4-6 dots = group content (meaning more than 2-3 people).




EQ2 changed it's combat system many times and they are still surviving.

Maybe I am alone (but I don't think so), but if they would re-align the mobs to make them tougher, longer battles, real group content and challenging boss mobs, I would enjoy the game a lot more.

So now you at least know ONE person



Having some classes that are good at soloing and others who are not so good has nothing to do with what is supposed to be GROUP content.

There will always be some classes that solo better than others simply due to their skill set (ie: necromancers, classes than can charm, etc.). However, they should be better soloer of SOLO content, not solo group boss mobs.

So, seriously, I don't have to "move on" . I'm still of the opinion they need to do a serious group mob revamp. I like VG, I am still playing it despite the many issues. But I will enjoy it a LOT more if they do the revamp.

You know whats Ironic about EQ2's combat revamp(s) as there were many.

I can still solo group instances and content on my Wizard. I can duo any group instance in that game also.

As I said before balancing mobs is not something thats easy to do. Trying to stop classes from soloing mobs that are supposed to be out of their reach is not simply just about beefing up mobs, or making them harder for that one class to kill. The ENTIRE game needs to be adjusted. Even then there's no guarantee's no one will figure out how to solo the same mobs.

The point was the dot system much like the arrow system in eq2 gets tossed out the window, and in time there will be less and less complaints about soling 4-5-6 dot mobs with some strong solo classes. Much like all the gripes/complaints about soloing white-yellow ^^^ heroics in EQ2.

[Karnos]

Originally Posted by Mortifera

EQ2 changed it's combat system many times and they are still surviving.

Maybe I am alone (but I don't think so), but if they would re-align the mobs to make them tougher, longer battles, real group content and challenging boss mobs, I would enjoy the game a lot more.

So now you at least know ONE person

Counting me, he now knows two.

I, for one, would love to see a complete revamp of mob abilities/difficulty levels.

Soloing should be restricted to 2-dots for most people, 3-dots for necromancers and other classes intended to be the kings of soloing.

Summoning should be a feature implemented with regards to all 4-dot mobs and above. Ranged attacks should be implemented starting at 2-dot mobs. Higher resist rates across the board. Root and fear immunity starting at 3-dot level. Snare immunity starting at 4-dot level. Charm durations and chance of premature charm-breaking should scale with mob levels: at 3-dots, a charm should last one fight; at 4-dots, charm shouldn't last one full fight, but recharming should be possible; at 5-dot and above, charm shouldn't work at all.

Mob DPS should be increased by 50%. Mob HP should be boosted by 50% starting at 4-dots.

Named mobs should have lots of special abilities.

And finally, lull should have much, much longer reuse time, allowing you to lull only one single mob per luller per pull.

[Cas]

Originally Posted by Karnos

Counting me, he now knows two.

Mob DPS should be increased by 50%.

Mob damage increased by 50%? That would be nuts, seriously. I wonder whether some of you know what NPCs hit for at the level cap.

A level 50 4-dot has a base damage of around 1600 and a delay of 2 seconds roughly. A well geared non-tank has around 4.5k HPs unbuffed. Assuming you have a mitigation of 20%(decent amount for a medium armor class), you will get hit for about 1200-1300 per hit.

Level 53 6-dots have a base damage of up to 4k(group encounters that is).

Increasing NPC damage, with the current itemization design, means that you have very little room for adjusting encounters and NPC damage. You can't allow NPC damage to get too high or they will 1-shot everyone below a certain HP treshold.

Imo the key is in making it harder to heal up the damage inflicted upon a player for an extended period of time. That way a designer has more room for increasing and designing content difficulty in the future, as energy pool, healing efficiency and energy recovery can be increased. That way a progression is assured and the ceiling is not reached as easily.

Because right now, a single 3 second heal(even less with spell haste effects) can heal up between 60 and 100% of a player's HP pool depending on the class and gear and a healer can sustain this indefinitely and since NPCs can never be allowed to 1-shot tanks, you are limited in your encounter design. So the answer, for me, is to lower healing sustainbility and balance encounters from that end.

And yes, I am a healer.

[Mortezzah]

Before increasing mob hit points or how much damage they do, I would do the simpler:

Increase resist rate to certain spells on 4/5/6 dot mobs. Leave 1/2/3 dot mechanics as they are. Those spells should be: snare, fear, root, and charms to fight other mobs.

Increase the rate that 4/5/6 dot mobs interrupt heals cast on self (not heals cast on others).

Add in player summoning to 4/5/6 dot mobs.

Once that is in (and some exploits are plugged up) it will bring their stated vision closer to reality -- and group type encounters will once again become group encounters, and 6 dot mob boss solos will be a thing of the past.