[Mystery Chocolate]

I'm just wondering if the people here stick around because they believe Vanguard will get better, or believe the game deserves as much bad rap for being a total disaster. Personally I don't know anymore. I mean reading the official forums..it doesn't look too good. SOE seem agonizingly slow to bring out any drastic changes the game needs, so slow I'm wondering if they're planning to shut down the game instead. Yeah server mergers but like that is gonna do much...the population is so pitifully small it seems pointless trying to support it with its damaged reputation. Then there's a trial island that is going to be released, which I think is being stingy couldn't they do something right like WoW giving you 10 free days to play the actual game but not being able to trade...etc.

But in 3+ years the game could become amazing like what SOE did to EQ2...but at the same time 3+ years is way too long and there are other games like WAR, AoC etc. coming out to steal even more people's attention away.

Anyway, what do people think about Vanguard these days? Do you have hope the game has a chance, and stick around or is it too late?

[Chae668]

hurray, another thread that is going to turn into a flame debate, and a 500 page debacle.

thank you sir for starting another pointless thread.



oh, and to answer your question, i stay here to follow the game. i re-subbed, after a 3 month break. it was a nice change of pace. not saying anything bad about it, but not saying anything good either.

my 2 cents.

[Guru]

Originally Posted by Mystery Chocolate

Anyway, what do people think about Vanguard these days?
rip off and debacle

Do you have hope the game has a chance, and stick around or is it too late?
there is no hope, it is too late.

.

[Canard]

hope dies last they say...

besides that VG is more or less fine. At least inGame as luckily whiners dont pay their subs

[Aamir Khann]

Here is my take.

I have been playing since beta 2.5 or so. I was happy to play the game at release, and it seemed that with the vast number of quests and things to do, that the future was pretty sure.

Now, after being here this long, and watching the most steady and noticeable decline that I have ever seen in ANY game, ( and I'm even comparing this to Horizons ) My hope has all but disappeared.

The game looks very cool. I love that I can swim, ride mounts, levitate, and be invisible. But with NOBODY to group with in a game that is groupcentric... Well, I am just very tired of being alone. So to me it is too little too late.

I'm gonna stick around till after merge... if after that the decline continues, then I will most likely move on.

[apasserby]

I also had been in beta and was totally amazed at release time of population numbers.But as issues were not dealt with,content not added,people started dropping.That could be expected as normal for any game,a certain percentage would try it,move on.Well..it got to the point where even devoted players had enough.Vanguard had a great opportunity,customer wise,to create the game people were waiting years for..and they blew it.After the disaster that was created I cannot see where its possible to get peoples trust to come back in the numbers that would make the game viable.The good from all this..whos to say..possibly other developers learned a good lesson from this.IMHO..which is worthless...Sony should shut it down..rework it totally,add the huge 4th continent,then re-release.But theres a double edge issue with this..would sony gain from having people leave EQ mode to join Vanguard mode?Bottom line from talking to other players...people would really like another go at Vanguard,but will wait and see what others say first before getting bit again.This is also my feelings...soo disappointed.

[shadowrelm]

I'm just wondering if the people here stick around because they believe Vanguard will get better, or believe the game deserves as much bad rap for being a total disaster. Personally I don't know anymore. I mean reading the official forums..it doesn't look too good. SOE seem agonizingly slow to bring out any drastic changes the game needs, so slow I'm wondering if they're planning to shut down the game instead.
--------------------------------------------------------------

BINGO.

first, let me say, i have hope for Vanguard.

the graphics are awsome. just awsome. i havent seen better graphics in any game. you have your genaric level grinds in more than one level, like all mmorpgs to date. you have your staple fantasy classes that we all love and know. you have quests that are marked for class/level/faction like all the newer games. you have a large world, and very well done dungons.

the foundation is there for a really good game. minus a top end game, it is already a complete game.

a heads up, a lack of a top end game is not why 90 percent of its player base walked. most of them walked long before getting there. bugs are not why 90 percent of its player base walked. all games have bugs and we all know that. including EQ1 who still to this day cant launch a patch that doesnt need an emergancy patch to fix. WoW has bugs and fixes for them every week. all games have bugs.

grouping is why they walked. once the powergamers blasted past the low and mid levels, the grouping came to a screeching halt. mainstream players do not play long enough to start groups or keep them going. that takes up the majority of their playtime. it is powergamers that start groups and keep them going. the mainsream players jump on, join a group for an hour or so, and leave. it is the powergamers that keep them together.

grouping is dead for mainstream players. 90 percent of the market are mainstream players. they are the majority of the players that walked.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

SOE is at a cross roads. anyone can see Vangurd has a solid foundation ready to build from for a mmorpg. but their choices are,
1. the vision tm. launch yet another group orientated game as it was intended.

the downside is, mainstream players are going to shun it just like they shun EQ1, EQ2, and SWG, the other 3 titles SOE owns. additionally, even if Vanguard does support itself in this format, chances are, the players that they gain will come from their other 3 titles and not the massive mainstream player base.

2. back peddle it a little like they did with EQ2 and SWG. offer more mainstream content.

the downside again is splitting their own gamers. mabe no net gain in subscription numbers for the money spent when you consider all their online titles as a whole.

3. totally rewrite the game for the mainstream players similar to WoW type playstyle.

the downside is totally destroying whats left of Vanguards player base, and possibly bleeding that sentiment back through their other titles.

there is no 100 percent win win decision they can make for the game. number 3 offers the highest chance of sucess money wise, but the greatest risk. number one and two might not add customers, but atleast they wont loose any. number 3 guarentees they WILL loose customers on a dice toss they MIGHT gain even more later on.

the best wasy to proceed is to do what they want to do, but say little to nothing about it. STALL their player base. anything they say will produce negative feed back from someone.

the corperate "cover my arse" decision for the executive assigned to Vanguard? fix it s intended and pray enough people come back to make it profitable. if they come from EQ1 and EQ2, who cares, thats not my arse, thats theirs.

the big picture decision, totally rewrite the game. keep the current game as it is with bug fixes, server combines, and minimal staff to keep money flowing in, then either,

1. relaunch the game as a mainsteram game, or

2, shut it down if they decide the risk isnt worth the investment.

so, you are waiting to find out if your going to get the "cover my arse" decision and end up with a small niche game to add to the station pass, or the big picture decision which will either rewrite the game totally or shut it down.

if they wanted to shut it down, they would have.

either way, it is in their best interest to say nothing untill they are ready to go with their decision. so stop asking. its pointless. you will get what they intend on giving when they are ready to give it. they are not going to tell you so half of you that are left will piss and moan and walk away.

if you like the game as it is, play on. if you dont, cancell, play something else, check back after christmass.

[Choctaw]

You need to move on from the "grouping is dead" argument. I'm not saying it's not true, it's just that we have all heard it from you before. Many times.

Oh and *I* did quit because of the bugs and the performance. And I really don't think I'm in a minority group of people. Not all games have the lack of polish and playability that this game did at launch. WoW was certainly more playable at launch.

[acrobat]

Personally I think its at an end. I know a lot less than other people here though, so thats just my uneducted guess.

But I think some people are here because they still play, and some people are here because they quit but still wonder if it may some day turn around. But I also know that I am here, because I know the game has gone down the crapper, and I am just here to watch the whole process like watching a car crash.

I am interested to know what other people think caused it. And does a game like this go to game heaven or game hell when it dies? And I'm interested to see what happens to the once highly respected Brad + Jeff. Do people still respect them? Are they considered the biggest failures in gaming history? Who blames who? Do they take responsibility for the failure. If this was such a complete failure, does that suggest Everquest just a fluke? How much of the $30 million is left to be paid back? Who where the investors, and have any of them jumped out of their office windows? Have any of them lost it and threatened to take Brad's sports cars as payment? Was the road just slippery and the car span out of control and hit a tree? Did Blizzard spill oil on the road when they saw the car coming? Etc...

Its just kind of interesting to me, but very sad too.

[Chae668]

Originally Posted by acrobat

I am interested to know what other people think caused it. And does a game like this go to game heaven or game hell when it dies? And I'm interested to see what happens to the once highly respected Brad + Jeff. Do people still respect them? Are they considered the biggest failures in gaming history? Who blames who? Do they take responsibility for the failure. If this was such a complete failure, does that suggest Everquest just a fluke? How much of the $30 million is left to be paid back? Who where the investors, and have any of them jumped out of their office windows? Have any of them lost it and threatened to take Brad's sports cars as payment? Was the road just slippery and the car span out of control and hit a tree? Did Blizzard spill oil on the road when they saw the car coming? Etc...
.

c'mon man.. you cant seriously have these questions. just read the posts here, and at FOH. pretty much sums up the community. but if your still not convinced, go to the official forums. all those answers you already know. just go search for them.

[acrobat]

Originally Posted by Chae668

c'mon man.. you cant seriously have these questions. just read the posts here, and at FOH. pretty much sums up the community. but if your still not convinced, go to the official forums. all those answers you already know. just go search for them.

This is the only Vanguard forum I've read really. I would like to know the answers but, not really enough to start hunting down the answers. Its kind of depressing too, so it makes me a bit wary of even finding the answers too.

But yeah, I've learned a lot about it from this forum alone. But some things I still don't really know. And a lot of the time, everyone has a completely different opinion. For example, some people blame SOE, and some people blame Sigil. And some people blame neither and think the game is great... So its hard to figure anything out really.


---------------------adding stuff----------------------

my god.. I looked at that "FOH" forum and wow.. those people really say what they think! I think if Vanguard was a person and read what I just read... little Vanguard would be sitting in the corner crying, with its face in its hands. And it would have a big wet patch in its crotch area.

[Chae668]

Originally Posted by acrobat

my god.. I looked at that "FOH" forum and wow.. those people really say what they think! I think if Vanguard was a person and read what I just read... little Vanguard would be sitting in the corner crying, with its face in its hands. And it would have a big wet patch in its crotch area.

rofl, aye.

pretty much sums it up

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by shadowrelm

grouping is dead for mainstream players. 90 percent of the market are mainstream players. they are the majority of the players that walked.

Incorrect. The players that walked can be categorised thus:

* The people that were originally attracted to the deliberately out of date and misleading FAQ and promises of "kunark, velious, that sort of challenge".
* The people that couldn't either run VG at all, or weren't going to accept the bugs it has
* The people that discovered the game was two years away from being complete

The knock on effect when these people left meant people couldn't find groups, and soloing your way to 50 is freaking boring. So the gradual bleed continues because of those factors.

[Qandow]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Incorrect. The players that walked can be categorised thus:

* The people that were originally attracted to the deliberately out of date and misleading FAQ and promises of "kunark, velious, that sort of challenge".
* The people that couldn't either run VG at all, or weren't going to accept the bugs it has
* The people that discovered the game was two years away from being complete

The knock on effect when these people left meant people couldn't find groups, and soloing your way to 50 is freaking boring. So the gradual bleed continues because of those factors.

That is fairly accurate in my opinion.

Frankly, group centric does not work. Forced grouping does not work. Not any more. That was pretty obvious even back in EQ although players did not have the options they have today. How many times have you seen " I only group with guildies" or "I never do PUG's". Add to that folks who like to solo, or duo/trio with friends and there isn't that much to feed a mandated grouping environment these days.

Some people are looking at the server mergers as a solution to turn things around. I sincerely doubt that the mergers will achieve that goal. I fully expect the merged servers to continue bleeding as well. First to go will be those who thought the mergers would solve their problems.

The problem is far deeper. It is a huge world with content sprinkled here and there. There is nothing compelling or cohesive about it. There is nothing novel about it either. With compelling content and some "omg" moments maybe folks would have endured the crappy performance and all the bugs, CTD's. However, folks aren't enduring that for same old, same old.

[VoiceOfReason]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Incorrect. The players that walked can be categorised thus:

* The people that were originally attracted to the deliberately out of date and misleading FAQ and promises of "kunark, velious, that sort of challenge".
* The people that couldn't either run VG at all, or weren't going to accept the bugs it has
* The people that discovered the game was two years away from being complete

The knock on effect when these people left meant people couldn't find groups, and soloing your way to 50 is freaking boring. So the gradual bleed continues because of those factors.

There is some truth in all of those things. People walked for all of those reasons and some for none of them probably.

Here is the bottom line though - If the crash/chunk/town bugs aren't fixed, the game will die.

If they are, the game will live. If they fix the bugs, add content and make make smart decisions, the game has a good chance to become a significant success.

[rhagz]

Wow, it's all so simple. I can't believe they never thought of that!

Fix bugs, add content and make smart decisions. Brilliant!

Dur, the whole crux of the issue is that they are unable to fix bugs, they are unable to add content and almost none of the decisions they have ever made could be considered smart.

[Quadrophenia]

I still don't have any idea if it is dead or not and I play every day.

I have come 180 degrees on one point, however. Grouping as in EQ1 is gone. I didn't want to admit it. I thought I wanted it once again and fully supported Brad, Sigil's, and even SOE's view of grouping as recently as this spring.

My wife and I were talking one day and she commented that she didn't think much of anyone wanted to group anymore, that players today were different. Maybe it's younger people that supposedly won't play that way....maybe it's players that have more RL responsibilities......maybe it's that we learned how to play mmo's......maybe it's all these and more. But the simple fact is that people do not play the EQ1 grouping style anymore. You can not like a fact, but it's still a fact.

Thus we have lots of soloing, some duoing, and a few small groups, probably couples and RL friends. Why did 2 boxing become so very prevalent in EQ1? Because people could play their way. You needed close to a full group and multi boxing gave it without needing 6 different people. If you ever 2 boxed, you are NOT for grouping, no matter what you want to claim.

Back to hope for Vanguard? I still play because this world is exactly how i want my mmo to look. It's a world!! And the traditional classes are all here. The pc and npc races are great. Even the lore is pretty damn good. That's it.

The gameplay is terrible, the dot/dungeon system takes dungeon play out of the game. Playing is watching the UI, not the action. Let me repeat that. This game is watch the UI. That's not why one plays a 3d game! Crafting and diplomacy have some nice ideas that were never finished for reasons we all know. And they became grindfests.

I am overwhelmingly in favor of the earlier comment in this thread to rip the game apart and start over. Keep the world, the races and classes. That's it. I'll wait for another year. In fact, if I really believed in the outcome, I'd continue subscribing for a year with no game to play just to support the development.

This world is flat out fantastic. Start over and give us a fun game to play.

[tdewey10]

There may be hope for the game but not without an entirely new team at the top.

They should move the whole group to SOE's main offices and then replace lead desgin, management, class design and etc.

Classes need to be un-nerfed, Bosses need to be much more interesting, Itemization must be totally redone (less, better items -- a la EQ1). And of course -- lore must be integrated into the game from day one to raids to class abilities. It needs more epic quests and less kill 10 dune crawlers for antenna. It needs more bossees like the stronghold grandmaster and Hruk and less like all the gimp bosses in the Xenn areas (AF excluded). In short the game needs to go back to its EQ1 roots.

I disagree that grouping is entirely gone -- I grouped almost everyday when I played VG. And that's what I loved most about the game. No more WoW -- soloing all the time.

[starsailor]

Originally Posted by tdewey10

I disagree that grouping is entirely gone -- I grouped almost everyday when I played VG. And that's what I loved most about the game. No more WoW -- soloing all the time.

I think you have to have both. With Wow, you could get away with not grouping at all, and cope with ok gear from solo quests, or solo drops etc, or at the least from the AH. The best items still came from groups though. LORTO, although it seems more soloing, actually changes to be more group centric at the higher lvls.

So I think you need both. The market has changed. Even for old school EQ players. If I'm logging on for 30mins, or 2hrs, then I want to feel I can do something worthwhile.

[acrobat]

Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

My wife and I were talking one day and she commented that she didn't think much of anyone wanted to group anymore, that players today were different. Maybe it's younger people that supposedly won't play that way....maybe it's players that have more RL responsibilities......maybe it's that we learned how to play mmo's......maybe it's all these and more. But the simple fact is that people do not play the EQ1 grouping style anymore.

I agree. I personally think its the latter - "all of the above". Infact, I felt like this was the case, even before Vanguard had reached beta. But I assumed that there would be just enough people left who still wanted stuff like that. And I assumed those people would all flock to Vanguard, to relive that experience they saw before in EQ.

But that didn't work out quite so simply. I actually stumbled across a whole bunch of people I hadn't seen since early Everquest! So it definitely seemed to work almost like I expected. But something went wrong. And although a lot of people gave it a try, they didn't stay.

Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Thus we have lots of soloing, some duoing, and a few small groups, probably couples and RL friends. Why did 2 boxing become so very prevalent in EQ1? Because people could play their way. You needed close to a full group and multi boxing gave it without needing 6 different people. If you ever 2 boxed, you are NOT for grouping, no matter what you want to claim.

Yeap.

Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Back to hope for Vanguard? I still play because this world is exactly how i want my mmo to look. It's a world!! And the traditional classes are all here. The pc and npc races are great. Even the lore is pretty damn good. That's it.

The gameplay is terrible,

Absolute bingo... Thats exactly how I felt too. It is frustrating. I really loved the world and its locations. I loved the graphics and sounds. The spell effects where improving etc. The classes where all there, and they where in an archetype system which, although I am still sceptical about, seems like the most logical way of arranging classes in a game like this. So I loved it and I was convinced it was going to be great.

But..... no matter how good the graphics are, and no matter how much I enjoyed exploring places like Bordinars which gave me a real sense of remoteness and isolation... and going over the planes north east of Veskals Exchange and seeing that awesome sight of the smoke rising from the area to the east.... all that means nothing if the gameplay itself sucks. And the gameplay sucked In my opinion atleast.

So I feel real sorry for myself hahah. Because these guys made me think they where geniuses, because they had made Everquest. So I saw the graphics and the world and loved it, and I just figured, if they can shoe horn some great gameplay into the package, it would be amazing. But thats where it all fell apart for me Oh well.

Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

the dot/dungeon system takes dungeon play out of the game. Playing is watching the UI, not the action. Let me repeat that. This game is watch the UI. That's not why one plays a 3d game!

Again... bingo! I don't feel so bad about never visiting Vanguard forums now, if other people are already saying what I think

Originally Posted by starsailor

I think you have to have both. With Wow, you could get away with not grouping at all,

So I think you need both. The market has changed.

Yes thats exactly what I think too. It needs both.

This is why I never visited the official forum during beta. (The one that Sigil used to host). I went on there once or twice, and posted about how I thought it was so important to allow soloing as much as grouping. And nobody from Sigil acknowledged my post, and probably 80% of the players who responded to my post, basically told me to "stfu and go play baldurs gate or something".

I knew right then, that the game would probably struggle. I could understand the developers not having time to respond to some post by some unknown guy on a forum. But if the majority of "fans" didn't appreciate my thoughts either, and infact thought the exact opposite, then I just knew the game would have problems.

I have only played WoW for about 1 week (a trial). But still, I have read a lot about it. EQ was my game. I played it for about 5 years on and off. I knew how important soloing was. Some people even soloed 100% of the time. People can say all they want about it being pointless paying a monthly fee to play a massively-MULTIPLAYER-online game, and then soloing the whole time... But there MUST be a reason for it, or people wouldn't play would they? The truth is, there is a reason why people soloed so much. And in addition to that, even the people who grouped most of the time, could solo if they ever felt like it too. Or could solo when they where waiting for their friends to log in.

When I was invited in Vanguard beta, I had been playing the game for about 2 to 3 minutes, and I asked something in /say to a nearby player. He said, "Why don't you join me?". So I did. For the next few hours, I was basically stuck in a group with this guy and his friend. It was fun at first, but I screwed something up, and then I had to run back to town and sell some junk I had collected and also learn a new skill. In the time it took me to do that, this guy had progressed onto the next quest and didn't wait for me. So I spent the next few hours doing quests by myself, while watching this guy, "Lol"'ing about stuff with his friend in group chat, even although I couldn't see him or what he was talking about.

The next few days I soloed which was great. And I had plenty more soloing for a while. But then at about level 18, I found the place called "Hillsbury Manor" and I wanted to go inside. As a former EQ addict, it just reminded me of Mistmoore/Unrest/etc, and I wanted to go in and look around and probably get chased out by a beetle There where two gargoyles on the enterence who conned about even to me - but the developers had linked them together... So I couldn't go inside.

About a week later, I was nearby, and someone shouted, "Psi and Warrior looking for more for Hillsbury". I thought it was my lucky day, I would finally get to see inside this cool looking place.... We killed those two gargoyles at the entrance, but then what happened? The path leading to the manor had about 8 angry mobs linked together too. The Psi said, "I don't like the look of this... I can maybe mez a couple". The warrior said, "It'll be ok, I dont think they will all come". He fired his bow, and all hell broke lose and about 90 mobs attacked us.

So they basically ruined the one place I most wanted to visit..

By the time I actually did manage to get inside, I was level 22, so everything was too easy for me anyway. And because it took a full group... we where ganking stuff left and right with no challenge at all. The inside was tiny too. It was basically 3 rooms with a token basement room. We just ran from room to room slaughtering everything. It was too easy, there was no sense of danger, no sense of awe. It was nothing like the amazing Unrest/Mistmoore experience at all.

What a complete and utter failure...

Thats not the reason I quit the game, but that is one of the main reasons. I am still dumbfounded, that these guys made Everquest, and yet they failed to even identify what made EQ good, and what made it bad. They removed all the things I enjoyed the most, and added a bunch of things I never wanted to see.