[Kurron Nye]

Why?

Because you folks who do not like the game changes to make access easier have a choice..they can choose to NOT use these features and functions.

You do not like the riftway? Then get on your mount and ride everywhere. You do not like the inter-continental teleporter? Then get a caravel and sail via the sea portals. You do not like corpse summon at altars? Then choose not to summon and instead do a CR every time.

You do not like Rest XP or the ease of XP gain? Then rack up twice as much XP debt so each level takes twice as long to complete.You want more challenging encounters? Then take on 4/5 dots with less than a full group, and do not use groups at all for 3-dots.


The point here is these 'accesibility' options are OPTIONAL, so if you are a person who truly believes in make the game harder, then yo would choose NOT to use them. However, I seriously doubt that any of the 'anti-dumbing down' crowd have boycotted these new features, and in fact use them in every play session. That to me says that part of the vocal minority has no legs to stand on..they are saying one thing while doing the opposite in practice.

They post about how 'easy' the game is while at the same time taking full advantage of the game's ease. One could respect their arguments if they actually practiced what they preached and played this game in the manner they wish to force on everyone else. Thats also the rub...the methods of gameplay they want have NOT been taken away, but instead alternative forms of gameplay have ben offered. The 'hardcore' could choose to make their gameplay adhere to the standards they alledgedly support but do they? How can their arguments be taken seriously when they themselves will not play the game 'hardcore' when the ability is sitting right in front of them? (and there are gigabytes worth of posts over the years in the hardcore vs. casual debate which show what 'hardcore' MMO gamers seem to want)

To me, it proves that the core argument in favor of 'hardcore' gameplay is NOT to make their own gameplay harder, but to make everyone's else's game harder so they can appear superior in comparison.

Yea..wonderful eh? Rather than raise themselves up, they choose to lower everyone else. Sounds more like Communism than anything.

SO really hardcore folks, what is limiting you from playing 'hardcore' like yo claim to want on VG? I do not see how SOE has prevented you from playing the game the wa you want. You seem to simply advocate forcing everyone else to play the game the way *you* want.

P.S. Please bear in mind I am not against making games more challenging, the point is if challenging gameplay is so important to you, why do you not make the game more challenging for yourselves, rather than browbeat SOE and people who play differently than you? Why is it the game cannot be 'fun' for YOU unless everyone else if forced to conform to your worldview?

Do you REALLY want to group with people who are only with you because they HAVE to be there? Seems to me you would be trying to dungeon dive with people who would leave you to rot the first chance they got.

[Loampounder]

You don't really understand the point of an online game, do you?

[Kurron Nye]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

You don't really understand the point of an online game, do you?

So what makes you say that since you avoided answering any of the questions posed above?

Why do want other players to be coerced into grouping with you when they could be having a good time doing something else? Tey pay the same as you do for their gameplay yet they do not demand that you play their way, and the game itself does NOT force you play the game their way.

Answer the question..why can a game NOT be fun for you unless all other players are forced to conform to your view of how the game should be played?

[rhagz]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

You don't really understand the point of an online game, do you?

The point of an online game is to suffer? Do the people who endure torture the most get recognized as being the best?

[Kurron Nye]

I too would like further explantation of that bit of drive-by wisdom. Please enlighten us unwashed masses as to what the point of an MMO really is.

Please bear in mind I operate under a simple maxim;

"Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they are unique just like everyone elses"

I may be laboring under the illusion that the point of an MMO is to provide entertainment for subscribers (aka fun). The more ways open to paying customers to have fun in a game, the better.

Not many people find being forced to do something fun. Its ok do do something unfun some of the time, but its uncool to get forced to do things you find unfun all of the time simply to provide fun for someone else.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Kurron Nye

Answer the question..why can a game NOT be fun for you unless all other players are forced to conform to your view of how the game should be played?

You are not even asking proper questions but loaded assumptions. How can anyone discuss the concept of an online community when you all ready have your set definitions AND you equate anyone with an opinion as an asshole?

[Kurron Nye]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

You are not even asking proper questions but loaded assumptions. How can anyone discuss the concept of an online community when you all ready have your set definitions AND you equate anyone with an opinion as an asshole?

Obfusication is not a valid response (unless you are running for political office).

In regards to the 'opinion' the point is that the arguments of hardcore vs casual are steeped in opinion and that yes, there are plenty of assholes on both sides of the argument, as such all arguments need to be taken with a rather large grain of salt rather than being taken as fact. There are lots of opinions out there, I want to hear about some factual accounts.

Perhaps a better question to ask is "How do these casual players negatively affect your game play?"

Then perhaps the 'harcore' element could begin to mount a more credible defense of its arguments. If you can provide DETAIL on who YOUR gameplay is harmed by a game providing easier access for newer players, I want to hear it.

That is the stuff devs want to hear too, they want TANGIBLE accounts of gain or harm their design decisions cause, as such I am asking what harm can you as a player relate to the rest of us that illustrates harm caused to you by the ease of access changes?

If you can show tangible evidence that says "Change XYZ has caused this to happen to me", you have something. I simply want to track cause and effect.

Yes, my hypothesis is that those against accessibility changes aka 'dumbing down' are mistaken in their assements of impact to the game, and have made them seem much worse than they actually are and tend to ignore the opinions and feedback of those who find the changes welcome.

Given how the 'older', less accessible ways of doing things are still present in VG, I am having a hard time understanding why the inclusion of new choices for players would negatively affect your gameplay given how your current type of gameplay has not been removed. To me it seems the problem is in people's minds and the arguments against accessibility changes does not stand up to scrutiny.

At any rate, could you offer up what a 'proper question' should be by your definition?

I do agree, however that to truly get these answers the jargon, and propaganda of the normal 'hardcore vs casual' debate must be left behind. I think what is more valuable to is to discover just what people are doing every day when they log in and why.

Obviously I come down on the side of 'accessiblity changes are good, but my mind is open as well. I simply want to get a clear picture of the other side of this argument if there is one.

[Lonestryder]

Dude, are you just itching for a fight or something? Looks like you're shadow boxing behind the counter there with loaded dice and a stacked deck.

Another night, perhaps. I just don't have the energy to battle over this junk. It's like politics and religion, people are passionate about their gaming (especially avid gamers) and I haven't seen anyone ever "convert" someone from one side of the argument to the other.

Consider the hardcore/softcore debate a balance of power that keeps things from getting too crazy either way.

[Kurron Nye]

Originally Posted by Lonestryder

Dude, are you just itching for a fight or something? Looks like you're shadow boxing behind the counter there with loaded dice and a stacked deck.

Another night, perhaps. I just don't have the energy to battle over this junk. It's like politics and religion, people are passionate about their gaming (especially avid gamers) and I haven't seen anyone ever "convert" someone from one side of the argument to the other.

Consider the hardcore/softcore debate a balance of power that keeps things from getting too crazy either way.

I am not really interested in converting anyone but I find if its worth being passionate about something, its also worth explaining because most of this debate is buried in one-liners, rhetoric and flames in general.

However there has been very little in the way of personal accounts of harm caused by accessibility changes (like riftways). Lots of statements about it, but very little in the way of "This harmed me and here is my story of why it caused my harm". Some say these changes are bad but I see a lack of explanation of WHY they are bad that go beyond simple perceptions.

I just want something more on the topic of accessiblity changes than simply hearing nonstop talk about 'dumbing down' without accounts of how that has actually occured attached to the argument.

Otherwise these arguments are nothing more than opinion, and I do want a at least a little more than opinion and am willing to listen and perhaps accept accounts of the issue that may vary from my own perception.

No fighting is required.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Kurron Nye

There are lots of opinions out there, I want to hear about some factual accounts.

Perhaps a better question to ask is "How do these casual players negatively affect your game play?"

It's not obfuscation. It's simply that you start with faulty premises designed the attack others. How can we even start a discussion when you begin with loaded questions? That "better question" is a kin to "when did you stop beating your wife".

I point you my first post. Think about what community means to you.