[rabb1t]

New thread to discuss Netbooks which are gaming capable - meaning ones with actual gaming GPUs.

(Things like Intel chipsets should not be considered unless they are super powerful. Things like the 945 and 950 chipset can game, but certainly not at the level of say the Nvidia 9xxx chips.)

- - - - -

Asus N10J-Ax
N10J-A1 at NewEgg, N10J-A1 at Amazon, N10J-A2 at NewEgg
10" screen 1024x600 res
1-3 gig memory
160 gig (A1) or 320 gig (A2)
XP or Vista
6 cell battery (reviews say 4-6 hours)

Gaming boost: Nvidia 9300

Advantages: Best battery life, higher-end models have an additional Nvidia 9300 you can turn on/off so you can actually game on this model!
Disadvantages: glossy finish makes fingerprints easy to see, mousepad is too easily hit

Preview:
Engadget - 9/17/8
Mobile Computer Mag UK - 9/26/8

- - -

Dell Studio 14z

14" screen 1280x720 or 1600x900
3 gig memory upgradeable (in options) to 5 (ram speed is DDR3 1066)
250 gig 5,400 RPM HD upgradeable in several steps up to 500 gig 7,200 RPM
XP
6 or 8 cell batery
4.3 pounds base weight
WiFi can be upgraded to N type
Bluetooth optional
X-Fi sound optional
Back-lit keyboard optional

Gaming boost: Nvidia 9400 M

Advantages: If you chose the base model you can alter parts to get true gaming power

Disadvantages: As this is effectively a full power laptop in a smaller size and netbook weight its got a higher price than other netbooks. The base model is $650 and once you add on gaming options it rapidly exceeds $825.

- - -

Lenovo IdeaPad S12
12" screen 1280x800 res
1 gig memory
160 gig HD
XP
3-cell / 6-cell battery

Gaming boost: Nvidia Ion

Advantages: ???
Disadvantages: ???

Preview:
Lenovo S12 Brings NVIDIA Ion to Netbook Market - 5/25/9
Lenovo IdeaPad S12 Netbook Officially Announced - 5/25/9

[Giftmacher]

The Neo MV-40-what now? Any reviews on the chipset's performance? I can't work out whether this is actually a Athlon/Turion CPU, if it is then it should pound Atom based Netbooks into the dirt.

Gift.

[rabb1t]

Not sure, that's the first I'd heard of it too. AMD page with Neo specs. Looks like it may be their competition for the Atom.

[Giftmacher]

Just something I spotted on HP's offering, the reviewer seems to think that discrete graphics are wasted on atom platforms.

Gift.

[rabb1t]

Hum. Their notes seem confused. As you point out they referenced that they think the Atom can't take full advantage of the 3410, yet later in that same paragraph they are super excited that it gives it enough power to run 1080p Blu ray (which is impossible with the screen res it has) as well as games. They pretty much contradict themselves.

[Giftmacher]

Not sure what you mean, this is about the Athlon Neo powered HP, and it has a HDMI port, didn't you look at the specs?

Gift.

[rabb1t]

Er, Athlon Neo. So used to them being Atoms. Yeah, kinda forgot about the HDMI out. Suppose that's a bonus, like a 'portable Blu-ray player' or something.

You certainly wouldn't be using it as a portable game system to hook up to a 1080p screen for gaming. That'd be... crazy. [CrazyPerson] I attach to huge screen, but have tiny keyboard, and no mouse!

I really want to see what happens when that puppy is going full blast on a game with only a 4 cell battery. The Asus was referenced as getting it's life cut by about half (so down to 2-3 hours) and it's got a longer battery life. Sure sure, you can plug it in wherever you have power, which most peeps would likely be somewhere that's powered, but part of the appeal for netbooks, at least for me, is the fact that you don't have to plug them in all the time. In class that's full of win.

[rabb1t]

It looks like Nvidia's Ion can be used for Netbooks. I thought it was just a small form factor thing, but it appears that "Ion" is the tech (Intel Dual core Atom + Nvidia 9400M).

I haven't seen any announcements though about anyone using the Ion as it's base for their Netbook yet, but I expect some should show up soon. The Asus N10J may be an early preview of it though, as it features an Nvidia 9300M.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/sff_ion.html

[Giftmacher]

Intel's Dual core atom, not much better than a single core? Just the desktop version so far and I'm rather unclear what the second set of benchmarks really are in real terms.

I suspect multicore under-utilisation is the main problem, and that's the software's fault... Still if the software is hamstringing the CPUs then you've got to wonder whether the increased power consumption is going to be worthwhile.

Gift.

[rabb1t]

I think the Atom (with Intel GPU chipset) will likely lose a lot of ground as the netbook processor of choice in the coming days. Reports seem to be showing that AMD's Athlon Neo and the upcoming Nvidia Ion just trounce it.

That being said, it still has more than enough power to do what Netbooks do. I'm not sure on the specific models for most, but I've seen about 5 around campus here now in the past few months. (I talked to a professor about hers, which was an Eee PC, not sure on the other's manufacturers.)

[Fozzik]

Actually, I'm pretty sure VIA has had a processor that beats the pants off Atom for quite some time. It's really more of a question of who has the muscle to get the OEMs. If it were completely about what's the best product, the industry would probably look at lot different.

[Giftmacher]

That's an understatement, the Nano has been trailed for some time now but just try to get a hold of a netbook running one. The only one I've seen so far is the NC20 and it's not available until later this month.

Gift.

[rabb1t]

At $650 it's likely not going to get a lot of attention.

Pllleeeaaase try and keep this thread to gaming netbook discussion though. (Or I suppose general CPU/GPU change discussion which will make them better for gaming.) I already decided that focusing on all netbooks would make our brains explode with how quickly they are evolving.

(I'm guessing within 3 years time there will be more netbooks offered by manufacturers than actual full laptops, so threads like this will become a moot point quickly enough.)

As example, I don't see any GPU reference for that Samsung NC20, so we may want to ignore it for the purposes of this thread until it shows itself to be 'game worthy'. Yes, all of them can run more casual, lighter, or web type games, or current games at super slow framerates, but I want to keep this thread focused on ones which can run the full on 'newest / shiniest' games that all the desktops are running - ones targeting gaming. (Even if it's only on lower settings and in the 20+ FPS range.)

[Fozzik]

None of these things are really "game-worthy".

Are we talking about running older games at lowest settings or playing solitaire? Buying one of these for gaming is like buying a Prius to tow a yacht.

I guess there are different definitions of "game-worthy".

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

None of these things are really "game-worthy".

Always mr poo poo head lately.

Are we talking about running older games at lowest settings or playing solitaire? ... I guess there are different definitions of "game-worthy".

We are talking about low to mid settings at around 20-30 FPS of current 3D games. No, it isn't "ideal", obviously a desktop is ideal. No, it won't match what a desktop can do, nor will it match what a gaming targeted laptop can do, but... Netbooks are awesome for carrying around and doing your daily stuff - checking email, web surfing, etc. They have more than double the battery life of a regular laptop, so you don't always have to be where there is power (like in class or in a meeting you wouldn't have to worry about sitting near power), and they are about half the weight, so you aren't lugging around a bazillion pound bag everywhere.

You can't poo poo on them for not being desktop replacements, that's not what they are for. No, the gaming isn't perfect, but some gaming is more than no gaming at all. While I'm an extreme case right now, what with being able to do only 1 month of gaming out of the past 7, a netbook would be super awesome for me. At less than $400 I could basically get ~95+% of my electronic life back, which would make me a super happy bunny during this time I can't use my desktop. If a gaming targeted one were affordable that would be even cooler. (Though paying roughly double for just that small percent more may be questionable with how tight my funds are.) Either a gaming targeted Netbook or just a regular one at lower settings would be a great choice for someone who wants more battery life, lighter weight, and roughly half the price of a laptop who would enjoy some lower spec gaming while they don't have access to their desktop.

Asus N10J playing Call of Duty - Intel on-motherboard chip + 9300M

Native Resolution (1024x600), 4xAA 16xAF, with the "big three" turned off (Shadows, Specular Map, Soften Smoke Edges).

Asus 1000H playing World of Warcraft - Intel on-motherboard chip only

Most of the settings are set to low.
Game averaged around 15-20FPS. Mostly stayed in the 20FPS range. Does play very well. Don't expect to do any raids or anything though. It has no problem at all doing instances.

Not yet released - Nvidia Ion doing several things - Next gen (dual core) Intel Atom + 9400M + faster on-chip ram. I saw a dev video that mentioned they were running out to a bigger screen to 1920x1080 at ~30 FPS.

Looks like they have a vid specifically on Ion in netbooks.

[rabb1t]

PC Perspective - NVIDIA ION Platform Review: Death (and Life) of the Netbook - Feb 3rd, 2009

Unfortunately they refernece Ion based Netbooks won't be around until sometime around Summer.

gaming page of the article - Call of Duty 4 1024x768 low settings, 13 FPS low, 52 FPS high, 28 average (0xAA, with 4x - 8, 19 and 13.) Left 4 Dead 1024x768 medium settings, 7 low, 35 high and 19 average. WoW mentioned as having no trouble at all.

The power needs will cut battery life down a bit, but I'd guess it would still be higher than a regular laptop (particularly if you aren't gaming.)

[Fozzik]

I'm not expecting a netbook to be an ub0r game machine...in fact, quite the opposite. I'm expecting them to be exactly what they are supposed to be, which is NOT a game machine.

It might indeed be fun to play some games on a tiny thing you can carry around easily, but the fundamental nature of the device makes it bad for gaming in a lot of ways. Not saying you can't game on one, it's just not at all a good primary reason to buy one.

Really the only way it can become an effective gaming platform is if they do what they did for iPhone and devices like it. They need to design games that work specifically with the small screen, keyboard, etc.

Playing Wow on a 1024x768 screen that small (other than just to be able to say that you can do it) seems like it would be a painful experience. It seems like you'd constantly be dealing with issues of usability and readability with the UI, at the very least.

Also, the battery life (I'm guessing) would be considerably shorter if you are playing games that fully tax the system. Even with full-fledged notebooks, you generally want them plugged in when gaming.

I'm really not trying to be negative... just looking at things from a different perspective. People have very different definitions of what they consider acceptable when it comes to gaming, and they should know what they are getting into. Again, a thread on gaming with netbooks is a lot like a thread on hauling lumber with a Honda Civic. It can probably be done, and it might be fun to discuss how...but you really aren't doing the most practical thing if your primary reason for buying a Honda Civic is to use it to haul wood.

Also, it's just fun to quibble with you.

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

I'm not expecting a netbook to be an ub0r game machine...in fact, quite the opposite. I'm expecting them to be exactly what they are supposed to be, which is NOT a game machine.

Thus why gaming on top of that means extra bonus fun.

The thread is really targeting people who want a netbook, but who would also be the type to carry around something like a PSP or DS. It's like 'hey, you can get something that could do both netbook stuffs, and light gaming, but with your regular games.'

Playing Wow on a 1024x768 screen that small (other than just to be able to say that you can do it) seems like it would be a painful experience. It seems like you'd constantly be dealing with issues of usability and readability with the UI, at the very least.

I think mr. poo head is forgetting that WoW's UI is based around a target res of 800x600. Anything higher and you've got extra space. Plus, you can scale the UI and increase the font size/chat window independently.

If you look at the videos you can see said players (there are several vids) don't have the buttons of the UI spanning the full bottom, meaning they obviously don't feel scaling it up is necessary.

If I were to be able to get one I'd fully expect to have the UI set about where you see it in the video I linked, save for spanning chat to be about 1/3 the way across horizontally and 50% of the way vertically. Remember, chat fades out when you don't get a new message, so if it's big for a short time when you are talking it's not really an issue. I certainly don't expect to raid, and being dropped quite a bit in Dalaran wouldn't surprise me, but being able to run a few quests and do may daily to work up gemcrafting would be full of win.

Plus, you'd be surprised just how readable those screens are when you are sitting close enough to type on them. Check out your local Best Buy. Back in the day I looked at one of the smaller 8" screens and I was really surprised.

Again, remember that right now I'm running on 7 months homeless, of which 6 of those have had zero gaming of any kind. Some gaming, be it somewhat laggy and with low settings, is far more than no gaming at all. Yes, again this is an extreme case, but for the person on vacation it might be similar. Some gaming as opposed to no gaming might be a good trade off for those times where a full laptop is too heavy/cumbersome, but a netbook would be just fine.

Also, the battery life (I'm guessing) would be considerably shorter if you are playing games that fully tax the system.

Most reference the 6 hours total measured is running at full power (non-gaming). I believe one of the articles I linked mentioned they were surfing the web with an ap that opened a window every second and was running something else. Even if you cut that by half for gaming that's still 3 hours. I recall my ex-roomie would get about 1 off her full laptop on battery power back in the day before needing to be plugged in.

Even with full-fledged notebooks, you generally want them plugged in when gaming.

Yeah, because they have poo for battery life when gaming. With the netbook I'm guessing a person would only be gaming a couple of hours, which could be done unplugged if you wanted. Options are good.

I'm really not trying to be negative...

teh bunny thinks so. Obviously this isn't meant to be THE gaming on the go system. It's meant as 'hey, are you looking at a netbook? Maybe you can spend 25-50% more and might enjoy a gaming targeted one a little bit more'. Obviously anyone who's main use for a portable system is gaming should be looking at a gaming laptop (probably in the $1500+ range) and not a netbook. But for someone like me, who's use is probably going to be around 75%/50% (non-gaming to gaming) or maybe 50/50, looking at a specifically gaming targeted one might be worth the price hike.

Then again, this might all become a moot point when Ion launches if the early reports of current 3D games running at lower to medium settings around 30 FPS is true. That sounds very similar to what lower end laptops will do.

and they should know what they are getting into.

I think they will, particularly as more reviews with gaming float in and get linked.

Also, it's just fun to quibble with you.

teh rabb1t is too fragile these days. He ouchies easily! Be careful pokin' him!

[rabb1t]

The first of the gaming capable netbooks has been announced, the Lenovo IdeaPad S12, due out in "late Summer", possibly August. $500+ launch price estimate (lower than I figured.)

[rabb1t]

It seems the next generation Intel Atom CPU (the 330) used in the Nvidia ION may still be holding back the system. This could be an early indication that the 1st generation gaming netbooks will still be CPU limited just like the non-gaming netbooks.

Anandtech 5/26/9 - The Final Update: Flash Video Performance on Ion

While this may not be a clear indication of CPU limitations for gaming on an Ion based netbook, it may be an indicator that the Intel Atom may simply not be strong enough to truly game with on netbooks. (Making a pairing with a stronger GPU than the 9300 a moot point.)

I'm sure time will tell as more reviews come out.