02-04-2009, 09:57 AM
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#1
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,273
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Recommended systems updates
I'm working on updates to my recommended systems (yeah, I know, about time!). I've decided to change things up a little bit, though. I used to recommend three systems at different price points (1k, 1.5k, 2k), but I'm not sure if that way makes the most sense.
I've decided to try out a different method for choosing components to recommend. I'm going to have three systems, but I'm going to try and put more distance in between them in terms of performance and price. With the old way, I found that often the systems were just too similar to each other. I'd rather supply obvious choices so that it's easier for people to pick what works for them and mod it to their own perfect build.
Also, I enjoy a challenge. Picking out a gaming system for $1k is very easy. it's a comfortable price point that provides a lot of performance and value. Trying to pick out a solid gaming system for $500? that's a little more of a challenge. I often get asked about putting together a "cheap" gaming system, and it's fun to see what I can come up with for a very low price.
Anyway, I'm rambling. What I'm going to do is not constrain myself to specific price points. I'm going to have a "value" system, where price is the primary concern, performance is second, and upgrade-ability is third. I'll then have a mid-range system, again not tied to a specific price point, which will put a balanced emphasis on price and performance and upgrade-ability. The final system will be primarily focused on performance and upgrade potential, with price a distant third.
I still don't plan on getting silly... I just never feel comfortable recommending a system that isn't a good value, even in the high end. Once you get past a certain point, paying twice as much money for 2% more performance just makes my skin crawl. In the same way, recommending a "cheap" gaming system that can't actually perform well in current games at decent resolutions is just as counter-productive. I'm never going to recommend components that wouldn't cut it just to save a bit of money.
So, to start off, I picked out components for the value system. I'd love input and suggestions before I put it up as an "official" recommendation. In honor of rabb1t, I'll start naming my systems as well as including a monitor recommendation -
"MIGHTY MOUSE"
AMD Athlon 64 X2 5600 Brisbane 2.9GHz - $69.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103234
BIOSTAR A740G (microATX) - $59.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813138112
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 - $46.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231226
MSI R4850-T2D512 Radeon HD 4850 512MB - $149.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127359
Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD3200AAKS 320GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache - $54.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136074
ASUS Black 2MB Cache SATA 22X DVD Burner - Retail - $24.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827135187
COOLER MASTER Centurion 534 RC-534-KKN2-GP - $54.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119106
CORSAIR CMPSU-400CX 400W ATX12V V2.2 80 PLUS Certified - $59.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139008
Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit - $99.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116488
Total -
$622.92
Acer X223Wbd Black 22" 5ms Widescreen LCD Monitor - $169.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824009145
Total with monitor -
$792.91 |
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__________________
"Behind this mask, there's an idea... and ideas are bulletproof." -V for Vendetta
My blog - The Last Bastion
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02-04-2009, 08:44 PM
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#2
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozzik
I used to recommend three systems at different price points (1k, 1.5k, 2k), but I'm not sure if that way makes the most sense.
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The way my systems go, or mostly go, which I sometimes tend to forget, is that each build is roughly a 50% increase on the previous. When I hit that 50% mark I take a real close look and ask myself 'is the performance / enjoyment of the system really being increased to match that price increase'. Sometimes it makes sense to hit 'round numbers', sometimes not. Like early on my builds were close to yours, (sub) 1k, ~1.5k, ~2k, ~3k, ~rediculousK, but recently I've been wiggling around a bit and not worrying if they don't quite hit that 50% jump each step.
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I've decided to try out a different method for choosing components to recommend. I'm going to have three systems, but I'm going to try and put more distance in between them in terms of performance and price.
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teh rabb1t method is just throw more system builds out there and leave the distance. hehe 
zomg maybe too many now with 8 for teh AMD/ATi peeps to also have reqs, not counting just GPU change alts. 
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With the old way, I found that often the systems were just too similar to each other.
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I've found that happens every few generations regardless. Sometimes even though you have more monies to spend on the build you just really don't gain a whole lot in performance / enjoyment to justify the expense.
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I'd rather supply obvious choices so that it's easier for people to pick what works for them and mod it to their own perfect build.
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Some are lazy though. 
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Also, I enjoy a challenge. Picking out a gaming system for $1k is very easy.
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Zomg... "Twiki", cheapest system evar. And it's got the new Nvidia Hybrid boost. Better than a better graphics card? ... tough to say. I try and remember a 'global audience' is out there though, and what is a cheap step up for us isn't always a cheap step up world-wide. 
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I still don't plan on getting silly...
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Aw, but you know those 4k+ on a build peeps are out there. We had one here for a while. 
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Once you get past a certain point, paying twice as much money for 2% more performance just makes my skin crawl.
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Oh well yeah, no Core i7 940s in my reqs for a reason.
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In honor of rabb1t, I'll start naming my systems
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hehehe mostly that's just so peeps can later come back and ask me what they can upgrade to (provided they recall the name), or look it up in the retired build document. Plus the whole reference it at other sites aspect. Some may have an easier time remembering the rough price, some an easier time with a name, so I give them both options. (Well, I guess 3 now what with the 'rank' notation.)
Only a $10 bump to the X2 6000+, but, this being the lowest cost build... meh.
A fair bit of a price jump up, but you could also consider the Evga 113-M2-E113. Paired with an Nvidia GPU the player would then get the Hybrid boost as well as PhysX. Better than raw GPU power and lower cost? Tough to say.
OCZ SLI Ready 4 gig DDR2-800 still continues to dominate the pricing. Currently at $31 post rebate.
I know this is targeting low cost, but I'd be concerned about wiggle room there. I'd be more inclined to recommend an Corsair CMPSU-550VX at $65 post rebate. That way a future upgrade wouldn't be quite so tight on PSU power.
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02-04-2009, 11:29 PM
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#3
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,666
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Oh, zomg, I did recommend the Core i7 940. It must be the AMD Phenom 2 940 I'm thinking of that I'm not recommending, as that only has a black edition.
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02-05-2009, 06:35 AM
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#4
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,273
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The Phenom II X4 940 "black" is actually what I'm planning on recommending in my mid-range build.
It does only come in an "black" edition, but it's very competitive with dual- and quad- cores in its price range. It ties or beats Intel's quad-cores at the same price point, and nearly catches (and sometimes passes) the dual-cores in gaming and general use. It's pretty sweet... and the stock cooler is so much easier to install. *giggle*
You basically get nearly as much performance as a dual-core in older apps and games because of the nice clock speed and big L3 cache, and you get the solid parallel performance in current and future apps that take advantage of more cores.
It's a tough choice, of course, but that's a good thing.  AMD is doing a much better job lately in carefully positioning their products to be very competitive.
I actually think 400W is fine for some upgrades, and shouldn't need to be upgraded unless someone decided to buy high-end components...then the system would no longer be in the "value" category.
Good call on the RAM, I'll make that switch. Oh, ick. It's only that cheap with the MIR. I hate those and don't like to count on them for pricing my systems. 
On the CPU, you're right it is a small increase in price to move to the 6000+, but I also balanced power and heat in the equation. Although the performance would be slightly better, the higher TDP would mean a warmer running machine and more noise from the CPU fan. The 65W and lower CPUs are super nice not just because of good performance/price, but also because they run very cool and quiet (no pun intended). |
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__________________
"Behind this mask, there's an idea... and ideas are bulletproof." -V for Vendetta
My blog - The Last Bastion
Last edited by Fozzik : 02-05-2009 at 06:42 AM.
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02-05-2009, 12:21 PM
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#7
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozzik
"Ninja"
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Yer system... it's gonna asplode. Black editions have no cooler included.
teh new shiney - Zalman CNPS9900 LED $75 (no backplate needed)
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Mushkin 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 - $129.99
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You may want to consider for a touch more OCZ XMP 6 gig DDR3 @1800 $176. Faster speeds for only 35% more. After all, if this is a no limit build, why skimp on $50 here and there?
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CORSAIR CMPSU-750TX 750W - $119.99
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Corsair CMPSU-850TX, 850w $140 / $120 more wiggle room.
A new "Two" version? What what?
*squints* "Now featuring moar black". Looks like minor case design changes and glowy fans. I like the changes, but I don't think I'll rush out and recommend it over the 900 in all but the most expensive builds. At >$100 that's too much to pay for the differences I think.
Yeah... looking at the liquid port ad and price this looks like a merging / replacement with the 1200. Maybe it should have been called the 2100?
- - -
Then again, I'd also say add on/swap the monitor for the Nvidia GeForce 3D Vision glasses + monitor bundle, but that's me. Yer all 'poo poo I don't like 3D' (I'd actually have a HDTV on my high end req for something like a 40" 1080p as the 3D screen, but it seems the smallest that's compatible right now is like 52", which is like )
- - -
Yer names make no sense. Theme, ya need a theme.
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Last edited by rabb1t : 02-05-2009 at 12:41 PM.
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02-05-2009, 12:58 PM
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#8
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,273
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I like the changes they made with the nine hundred two. The body style is a little more appealing to me, and everything in black just looks more polished. I'm sure overall it's roughly the same case for more money... but people can certainly choose what they want.
Didn't know black editions are sans cooler. Thanks for that tip. The cooler you picked out looks like it would create its own weather system... I'll probably pick out something a bit less... rawr.... gigantic.
Does the difference in clock speed make an actual difference in real apps? I thought typically it didn't make much difference at all in real world. I guess I'll research that a bit and see if spending some more would be worth it.
I'm not sure it would be possible to max out that 750W without really jumping completely over the shark. If people feel they honestly will use more than 750W, the higher power ones are certainly available. The system as it is doesn't come close to using 750W, I wouldn't think.
3D glasses = gimick in my mind. I just don't see that as a alternative to a monitor... more as a luxury if you have tons of money and nothing else useful to buy.
I'll work on a theme for the names. |
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__________________
"Behind this mask, there's an idea... and ideas are bulletproof." -V for Vendetta
My blog - The Last Bastion
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02-05-2009, 01:21 PM
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#9
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,273
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Hm... I hate picking out aftermarket coolers. =\
What about this...slightly more reasonable...one?
ZALMAN 9500A 92mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835118223 |
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__________________
"Behind this mask, there's an idea... and ideas are bulletproof." -V for Vendetta
My blog - The Last Bastion
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02-05-2009, 03:36 PM
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#10
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozzik
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Much heavier, needs a backplate. The new one is really the best option. They cut out a lot of the weight, which is good for the motherboard, and it is nowhere near as complex as the older designs which required motherboard backplates (due to the weight.)
Seriously, $20 diff? Don't think that's something to stress over.
I believe there are some lighter 3rd party coolers from Thermaltake that usually rank pretty high.
(But yes, this is why I don't recommend the Phenom 2 940, it requires an aftermarket cooler. While I recommend a few on my systems, they are optional, not required.)
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I'm not sure it would be possible to max out that 750W without really jumping completely over the shark. If people feel they honestly will use more than 750W, the higher power ones are certainly available. The system as it is doesn't come close to using 750W, I wouldn't think.
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I suppose that's one spot we differ. My systems are basically all ready to just drop in a second card for dual card, whereas I'd be a bit worried with yours.
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monitor... more as a luxury if you have tons of money and nothing else useful to buy.
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Um... for "luxury" and "useful" I'd be more inclined to recommend the Dell 27" for the 110% RGB color gamut over a 30" with less colors. I'd personally choose a color with better colors than one with ridiculous resolution. I just don't see that the gain with 2560x1600 over 1920x1200 as important as better colors.
That or kick the req up to the Dell 30" which references a 117% RGB color gamut.
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Last edited by rabb1t : 02-05-2009 at 03:44 PM.
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02-05-2009, 05:48 PM
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#11
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,273
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Much heavier? The one you recommended is 730 grams, the one I suggested was 200 grams less. It's much lighter.
There's nothing wrong with aftermarket coolers... just annoying to have to pick them out (I'm lazy and don't usually use them).
Most of the other coolers are quite a bit larger than that one I linked to... it's definitely one of the smaller and lighter ones that still seems to have the capabilities to handle the Phenom II. I mean, I'm sure I could recommend some giant monstrosity like the Scythe Ninja or the one you linked, but something lighter and more reasonable seems like it will still do the trick.
It's not like they make it very easy...I can't find a list anywhere of coolers that work with the Phenom II. If somebody knows of one, let me know. I've just been shopping through the coolers that say they are compatible with AM2 and figuring they will fit.
Something like this would probably work -
Scythe SCSK-1000 100mm "SHURIKEN" CPU Cooler - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835185063
Most aftermarket coolers have just gotten completely out of hand.
You don't think that 750W supply would handle two cards? Well, I guess since I'm recommending the GTX 295 it's a bit of a special case... two of those is really like 4 cards. I think the 750W would handle pretty much any other dual-card setup (like two GTX 260s or two GTX 285s) without any problem at all.
With the video card and CPU I'm recommending, the 2560x1600 resolution is really needed to flex the muscles of the rest of the system. Better color is certainly great...but tons of real estate is nice too.
For most people, I think they'd have a hard time telling the difference between the various color depths (some people can, sure...but the tricked-out 6-bit displays are getting awfully good). Everybody can easily tell the difference between a 27" and a 30" screen size.
Obviously the best thing would be to get the 8-bit 30" display... but at almost twice the cost a lot of folks might feel it's unnecessary. I personally would probably spend the money for the 3008WFP if I were getting that system, but it is a lot more money. |
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__________________
"Behind this mask, there's an idea... and ideas are bulletproof." -V for Vendetta
My blog - The Last Bastion
Last edited by Fozzik : 02-05-2009 at 05:51 PM.
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02-05-2009, 10:56 PM
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#12
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozzik
Much heavier? The one you recommended is 730 grams, the one I suggested was 200 grams less. It's much lighter.
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My bad. I thought that was a previous gen of the same size. I didn't notice yers was a smaller version.
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It's not like they make it very easy...I can't find a list anywhere of coolers that work with the Phenom II. If somebody knows of one, let me know. I've just been shopping through the coolers that say they are compatible with AM2 and figuring they will fit.
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That should be fine criteria. The AM2/AM2+ is the same socket size. Only like 1 pin is different and the overall size is unaffected. So, in theory, anything AM2 certified should be fine.
I think there are some older flat 'flower' designs that might be good. Though most of those are being phased out.
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You don't think that 750W supply would handle two cards?
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Probably, but there's a new 850w for just a touch more monies.
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Well, I guess since I'm recommending the GTX 295 it's a bit of a special case... two of those is really like 4 cards.
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Yeah, don't know the PSU recommendation on that but I'd think you'd want to err on the side of higher to be sure.
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but the tricked-out 6-bit displays are getting awfully good).
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Yeah, I think that one in the low system req is a 6-bit. It's got a huge price diff between it an other ones of it's size.
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Everybody can easily tell the difference between a 27" and a 30" screen size.
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I'm not so sure. That 3" difference would be pretty hard to notice unless they were used to it.
But then, it's likely the graphic artist / super sensitive gamer in me that would prefer more color. (Plus I'd be concerned about the power required to run that 2560x1600 as time goes on.)
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I personally would probably spend the money for the 3008WFP if I were getting that system, but it is a lot more money.
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I'd probably be more apt to get a Mitsubishi (I think that's them) whatever is the smallest size and go with the 3D glasses. That or the Dell 27"
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02-06-2009, 05:56 AM
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#13
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,273
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I'm sure that the monitors in the first two recommendations are both 6-bit. With the improvements in tech they've made, and the massive cost savings, it doesn't make much sense to try and dig out an 8-bit display these days unless you have very specific needs or tastes (like you and me ).
I think I will try to use an 8-bit display for the top-end system, though...as you suggested. If we're going to spend a ton of money on a very big monitor, it's going to last through at least a couple computers and splurging a little more makes sense (especially since I didn't set a price point). Have you done some research on what's still surviving with an 8-bit panel? Seems like almost everything is 6-bit now.
I think I'll go with my cooler for the time being... there are going to probably be a lot more coolers certified for Phenom II once the AM3 version drops. These AM2+ versions are not going to be around long.
*thinks* ... Because of the impending switch to AM3, I'm actually considering a switch to a Core 2 Duo recommendation for the time being (in the mid-range). Getting an AM2 system right before it starts getting phased out doesn't seem like the best option, even though the price/performance is really good. It's a shame...because the prices on motherboards and memory for AM2+ are so very good right now, the overall platform provides a ton of value. |
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__________________
"Behind this mask, there's an idea... and ideas are bulletproof." -V for Vendetta
My blog - The Last Bastion
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02-06-2009, 07:22 AM
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#14
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,273
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Looky what I found!
S-IPS 8-bit 30" display for just $1100.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824005115
That aught to work nicely for the high-end rec.
From what I've read, the input lag is very low, and the response time is great...the only negatives I saw were that it didn't have HDMI and doesn't have an on-screen display for adjusting picture (means you use the adjustments in the graphics driver, I guess).
Looks like an awesome deal to me. |
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__________________
"Behind this mask, there's an idea... and ideas are bulletproof." -V for Vendetta
My blog - The Last Bastion
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02-06-2009, 01:38 PM
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#15
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozzik
Have you done some research on what's still surviving with an 8-bit panel? Seems like almost everything is 6-bit now.
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No. I r teh confused unless it mentions 16.2 or 16.7 mill colors. For the most part I just assume one which is much lower cost than the others is 6-bit vs. 8-bit without the color count reference.
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once the AM3 version drops. ... Getting an AM2 system right before it starts getting phased out doesn't seem like the best option, even though the price/performance is really good. It's a shame...because the prices on motherboards and memory for AM2+ are so very good right now, the overall platform provides a ton of value.
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Yeah. I wrote a something about that somewhere, I forget where. It seemed like a good idea at the time to have AM2/AM2+/AM3 and the ability to mix and match, but I really think that as time has gone on it's just made things more confusing since things don't seem to be 100% cross compatible like they predicted/hoped.
You could actually eek into a Core i7 build with your mid range if you don't mind skimping a touch on some parts.
Core i7 920 $290, Patriot Viper 3 gig DDR3-1333 $75, Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD3R $185 post rebate.
I'll likley eek the Core i7 down a rank myself next round of builds.
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02-06-2009, 05:41 PM
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#16
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 545
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Nice discusion guys, almost makes me wish I was in the market at the moment. I only keep informed of new tech on a general level unless I am about to build a new system and then I devour information for a few weeks. I don't know how you keep track of the latest all of the time.
Any thanks for keeping the site going, I and others I am sure do appreciate it I still check the site often and enjoy the posts and info.
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02-06-2009, 07:02 PM
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#17
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,666
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I'm kind of obsessive, so fixiating on this stuff is 'easy'
Back when I started though it actually wasn't that tough to get familiar with it. I think I read the main sites once or twice a week and over the period of a few months it just all started to form a pattern. I check the sites at least once a day now, but that's really unnecessary. Just once a week or so skimming the sites and you can pretty much keep current. (If a person were so inclined.) You can actually read the sites less often than once a week, but sometimes they post so much infoz after a week the important things get pushed out of view by the not so important.
Plus, I'm kind of constantly window shopping for new stuffs I wish I could buy. 
In all honesty the early start of teh rabb1t site wasn't much more than notes to help remind myself what was out there that I was interested in where I could also refer others to see.  |
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Last edited by rabb1t : 02-06-2009 at 07:05 PM.
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02-07-2009, 07:19 AM
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#18
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 773
Server: Florendyl (RP)
Name: Jaylen Giftmacher
Guild:
The Arcanum Literati
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Regarding the 902, I'd definitely go with that for the air filters alone. A I've said before, much as I love my 900 it's a hoover. Anything that helps keeping the case dust free gets my vote.
Gift.
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Mad! Scientist!
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02-07-2009, 07:32 AM
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#19
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,273
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Yeah, air filters are nice. As long as they are running the right kind of pressure inside the case so that it isn't sucking air in through holes that aren't filtered, that is.
Also, the 902 (that's a much easier way to type the name) appears to have done away with that silly fan that's mounted on the back of the drive bays. It looks like the mount is still there, but I don't really understand why anyone would want a fan right there. Seems like it would get in the way a lot.
Now that they are claiming 16.7 million colors with the 6-bit monitors, ALL the "specs" are pretty much officially useless. They are now just completely making up all the numbers for themselves and manufacturers probably aren't even being internally consistent between their different lines of monitors.
There really should be some kind of standards organization that reigns these guys in. They should set standard ways of measuring the various aspects of monitors, and they should enforce rules of advertising (like not being allowed to claim 16.7 million colors when you are faking like 15 million of them in software).
That S-IPS 30" for $1100 is a pretty sweet find though... that's what I would buy if I were in the market.
The mid-range is still swirling around in my brain and hasn't solidified yet. Maybe Core 2 duo, maybe Core 2 quad, maybe i7, maybe stay the way it is...At that price point, it's pretty tough. In a few months it will probably be much easier, since we'll see the lower-priced versions of the i7 and the new AM3 Phenom IIs. |
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__________________
"Behind this mask, there's an idea... and ideas are bulletproof." -V for Vendetta
My blog - The Last Bastion
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02-07-2009, 06:54 PM
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#20
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozzik
the 902
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That's a good way, though I think the way the text of it is set it would more likely be '900 v2'.
Could be a while for the price to drop. It's closer to 3x the cost of the v1 when it's on sale. (Goes as low as $60.)
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They should set standard ways of measuring the various aspects of monitors
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I read an article that said a lot of the specs actually can't be measured because we don't have tools that are sensitive enough to accurately measure at the point we have gotten to, let alone beyond it.
I figure the 6-bit / 8-bit thing is kind of a moot point what with 10-bit showing up for HDTV. I'm guessing it won't be much longer, certainly by 2010, that we'll see 10-bit showing up in the notes for PC monitors.
Of course, what with 16:9 showing up for PC monitors we may actually be at the true start of PC/HDTV merging and by 2010 they may settle on a unified standard for both. (I'd bet just pull 16:9 tech down into PC since there are likely way more HDTV sales than monitor sales.)
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The mid-range is still swirling around in my brain and hasn't solidified yet.
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You could use teh rabb1t method and split it into 2 with one being the lower mainstream and one for higher mainstream.
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