[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by AsheMan

Ah, well that's nicer than expected. I'll give them a little credit for doing that.

Well, considering bait and switch laws involving advertisements directed at children would be a touchy point for SOE.

[Joodah]

Originally Posted by Venge

Sup Joodah. This whole Silius bomb thread has literally sliced the community to the point its every man for themself. Right now VG needs every single sub possible because if it continues to bleed like it already has in the past. Then the future could be much more short lived then we all view it. I quit back in June and now that I look back on the game, it was probably a good thing I did because I was in the lead for the lvl 55 race, took a 1 week vacation, hit 55 and was on T3 Pota. I saw what the end game was going to end up as and quite frankly wasn't worth the time.

I don't regret many things if any in life but that grind I wouldn't mind taking back. Its just unfortunate for those who have their epics now or almost got them. Those are the ones who got punched in the gut by all of this. With as small as VG's population is, if they were to lose their casuals or their raiders, it is done for the game. Right now is a time everyone needs to be holding hands and singing kumbaya (no homo).

hehe yep

[Venge]

The thing about me is I was one of the largest vanbois back in the early days of beta in launch. Hell just look at my post history here and on the boards. As its been said many times before, Vanguard is what it is. Unfortunately with the current mmo market, there are currently no in-depth fantasy PVE MMO that is recent. The only recent ones are WoW and EQ2 and heh 2004 isn't really recent in my books.

Plain and simple, VG is only still around because it is currently not being challenged for the market its currently in. VG is the only game that appeals to the old school EQ type player. Will it be the only one to do so? No one knows. But making it is the only game in its current market, servers will remain goign until it just because an absolute desert (not saying it isn't already one).

Looking at that thread on the boards with the Silius bomb, it goes to prove that there's so much emotions wrapped up into this game that even today some still believe that the game could grow and start dropping expansions. That's the heart talking and not reality talking. I mean some think it was easy for me to finally drop Trinity. Think how it was for people like Kaeltar and Sondrax dropping their guilds when you're sitting at the top of the game and the work invested.

Right now I can almost bet alot of folks in VG are eagerly searching for the next PVE fantasy-based mmo. VG only survived through Aion, WAR, and AoC because they were different market games. But what would happen if a game actually hopped into VG's market?

[Amsra]

Originally Posted by Venge

The thing about me is I was one of the largest vanbois back in the early days of beta in launch. Hell just look at my post history here and on the boards. As its been said many times before, Vanguard is what it is. Unfortunately with the current mmo market, there are currently no in-depth fantasy PVE MMO that is recent. The only recent ones are WoW and EQ2 and heh 2004 isn't really recent in my books.

Plain and simple, VG is only still around because it is currently not being challenged for the market its currently in. VG is the only game that appeals to the old school EQ type player. Will it be the only one to do so? No one knows. But making it is the only game in its current market, servers will remain goign until it just because an absolute desert (not saying it isn't already one).

Looking at that thread on the boards with the Silius bomb, it goes to prove that there's so much emotions wrapped up into this game that even today some still believe that the game could grow and start dropping expansions. That's the heart talking and not reality talking. I mean some think it was easy for me to finally drop Trinity. Think how it was for people like Kaeltar and Sondrax dropping their guilds when you're sitting at the top of the game and the work invested.

Right now I can almost bet alot of folks in VG are eagerly searching for the next PVE fantasy-based mmo. VG only survived through Aion, WAR, and AoC because they were different market games. But what would happen if a game actually hopped into VG's market?

Very good points all.....

To me, the mere fact that still.....there has been no response what so ever from anyone at SOE to the firestorm they created is more telling than the cuts announced in the OP.

It just continues to show the disdain that SOE holds for their customers......

Venge, if you haven't seen my blog on this, give it a read. I know it's linked somewhere in this thread.....And even linked on the OVF, not by me even

In all honesty, I really actually would love to be playing VG.....even with all the problems and lack of future now But SOE has pissed me off enough times now, that I refuse to pay them any more....for anything. As you said, there really isn't anything else out there on the market that caters to players who want more of a challenge than the "I win" button I haven't regularly played any MMO since I left VG after 1.5 years from release. Tryed em all.....except of course SOE offerings The only game I periodically go back to is EVE, now they know how to grow a game. SOE could learn a lot studying CCP

My best hope for a good fantasy MMO continues to be Copernicus from 38 Studios. They have killer talent in Bob Salvatore and Todd Mcfarlane and driven by Curt Schilling who is a hard core gamer himself. I hope this year, they finally start some PR and teasers to build buzz I really want to see what that team can do, Curt has pretty much gone for the best in terms of talent, from Bob and Todd to coders and artists and management. If there can ever be a WoW killer, I think they might be able to pull it off. An original IP released on multiple platforms and genres. The MMO may be the centerpiece, but they are planning everything from RTS games to phone apps based on the IP.

Having been burned too many times now, I try not get too excited about projects in development anymore but I think they are our best shot of seeing the kind of game that we want



My 2cp...

[Choctaw]

Originally Posted by Amsra

Very good points all.....

To me, the mere fact that still.....there has been no response what so ever from anyone at SOE to the firestorm they created is more telling than the cuts announced in the OP.

It just continues to show the disdain that SOE holds for their customers......

Venge, if you haven't seen my blog on this, give it a read. I know it's linked somewhere in this thread.....And even linked on the OVF, not by me even

In all honesty, I really actually would love to be playing VG.....even with all the problems and lack of future now But SOE has pissed me off enough times now, that I refuse to pay them any more....for anything. As you said, there really isn't anything else out there on the market that caters to players who want more of a challenge than the "I win" button I haven't regularly played any MMO since I left VG after 1.5 years from release. Tryed em all.....except of course SOE offerings The only game I periodically go back to is EVE, now they know how to grow a game. SOE could learn a lot studying CCP

My best hope for a good fantasy MMO continues to be Copernicus from 38 Studios. They have killer talent in Bob Salvatore and Todd Mcfarlane and driven by Curt Schilling who is a hard core gamer himself. I hope this year, they finally start some PR and teasers to build buzz I really want to see what that team can do, Curt has pretty much gone for the best in terms of talent, from Bob and Todd to coders and artists and management. If there can ever be a WoW killer, I think they might be able to pull it off. An original IP released on multiple platforms and genres. The MMO may be the centerpiece, but they are planning everything from RTS games to phone apps based on the IP.

Having been burned too many times now, I try not get too excited about projects in development anymore but I think they are our best shot of seeing the kind of game that we want



My 2cp...

Todd is art. That has rarely been an issue in recent MMO's.

Salvatore is story. That has rarely been an issue in recent MMO's.

Curt *loves* WoW. It is his current "go to" game.

I'm not so sure what they're going to produce is what you're going to like. Recent game failures can usually be attributed to a lack of endgame content and buggy performance. None of the three mentioned above has any actual expertise in those areas.

Now I'm not saying doom and gloom here. I'd just be real careful about getting your hopes up even a little.

[Nepenthia]

A friend and I were recently discussing games coming along in development. It was not a happy discussion in that we could not come up with a future game that is premised on pve immersive world gameplay (based on complicated game mechanics, full geography, lore, and community building structures such as guilds, raid sized groups, interactive grouping, etc.).

The current conventional wisdom, based on WoW's success, seems to be that people either want a WoW like game where world geography, history and community have no real importance in successfully playing the game or they want a pvp world where community equals opposing sides.

The current conventional wisdom is also that most people want game mechanics that convert shallow content into speedy reward.

So I wonder, will the burgeoning populations of shallow games spin off enough players looking for more complex gameplay and more social interaction to ever get us back to the mud-based philosophy that a successful game can be built to satisfy the variety of gameplay objectives .... so that the adventuring, exploring, socializing combination of playstyles can exist happily in one immersive world.

I also wonder if the player-generated content movement will ever go beyond the "sandbox" thinking to one more akin to the muds where a player could get a template for a zone or a craft and then create useable content to add both content and immersion for the entire community.

No answers here. Only disappointment that, for now, engaging in nostalgia about old games is much more fun than anticipating any new ones. I'd much rather ditch the nostalgia in favor of playing a game that offers risk and danger, adventure, exploration and a social environment.

[AsheMan]

If a game does release that appeals to our kind (MUD and EQ players) then it will probably come from an independent company and likely not have much funding. Which is a shame, because while I truly love the gameplay of old, I now expect the quality and polish modernity brings. Quality and polish is typically a result of a lot of funding. Who would spend that kind of money on a game that only caters to the tens of thousands as opposed to the millions?

[Fozzik]

Here's a weird idea I've been having...maybe food for thought for some of the skilled thinkers around here.

Also, this was a fledgling blog post in the making (the "in my head, but too lazy to write anything down" phase). So if anyone is wondering why I never post on my blog, it's because of posts like this. :P

What I'm thinking is going to be our outlet over the next decade or so is a weird reversal from something that's been around since the first games in the genre. There are multiple games in development which look fairly promising...They offer more of a world, more depth, complexity, etc. The only glaring issue is that for some reason, all of them feature open PVP in one form or another. Like Nep, I don't really understand this phenomenon, other than to say it must be some kind of group think throughout the industry that the secret to a successful game is PVP. Well, that and the fact that it's the easiest and most lazy retention mechanism when your game runs out of content (at least in a lot of designers' minds, I think).

So, we're looking at several games that may very well have a lot of good things going for them EXCEPT for the overbearing PVP. In EQ, the PVP players were relegated to their own servers in order to allow for two different rulesets to exist in the same game world. Maybe it's time we started asking for the same thing.

Why not have a PVE server?

Sure, there's an argument to be made that alternate ruleset servers tend to get treated by developers the same way a baby treats a diaper, but I think the idea could be workable if an appropriately dedicated and skilled design team were on the task. In fact, it may already be something they've thought about or planned on.

Anyone have any info on whether some of these upcoming games which feature a sandbox-style world with complexity and depth and PVP might consider (or already are considering) an alternate ruleset server for the rather large section of the community that has absolutely nothing to play?

I think in a decade or so, WoW will be basically gone and forgotten and the industry will realize that nothing they ever did after WoW really drew people away from WoW or brought anyone new into the space. At that point, when the hype surrounding this genre dies down a bit, I think we might see another game we're interested in. Until then, maybe we could exist as a sub-culture in this new chunk of "hard-core" games.

[Amsra]

Originally Posted by AsheMan

If a game does release that appeals to our kind (MUD and EQ players) then it will probably come from an independent company and likely not have much funding. Which is a shame, because while I truly love the gameplay of old, I now expect the quality and polish modernity brings. Quality and polish is typically a result of a lot of funding. Who would spend that kind of money on a game that only caters to the tens of thousands as opposed to the millions?

Again, I will throw out Eve as an example. A niche game that has a lot of polish, good eye candy and very successful over the long term. They release regular content updates and have done nothing but grow their sub base since launch.

It can be done successfully. Given the market saturation of WoW clones, you would think that developers would be looking for something to set them apart from the crowd.

[dabble]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Here's a weird idea I've been having...etc.

You might be onto somthing here Fozzik. Darkfall has been steadily increasing it's PVE content and has noticed subs increasing as a direct result. Keep an eye on Darkfall over the next year, I'm not sure that they will release a PVE server, but the PVE content will be greatly increased to atract that playerset.

[Fozzik]

I'm also interested in The Secret World, Earthrise, and a few others. Maybe the only reason they might not already have a PVE server is that nobody has asked.

[big-daddy-buddy]

disclaimer: i don't want to necro a post so i figured i would post here, i have been drinking so i might ramble


i resubbed to VG for 4 months ( Jul - Oct 09 ) and had a blast with an active guild. previously i had played from open beta to three months after APW was released. ( not sure of dates lol ) i had followed the game for two years before that. i only post this to establish my VG fanboism.


I am sad. returning to vanguard was fun and actually gave me a bit of hope that things could work out for the better with the game. i only stepped away because work got busy and i didn't have time for a few months. now i read this and see that vanguard is not going forward. unless a miracle occurs i am done with the game for good so i want to take the time to thank Silky Venom for all the time put into the game back in the day. i also wish to toast all that vanguard could have been and all the fun we had following the game before release. i almost had as much fun following the pre release as i did actually playing the game. i am planning on SW:TOR being the game that holds my attention for a while. in the meantime i will probably reup VG for it's swansong, be good all and thanks for the memories! CHEERS!

[Nepenthia]

I am sad. returning to vanguard was fun and actually gave me a bit of hope that things could work out for the better with the game. i only stepped away because work got busy and i didn't have time for a few months. now i read this and see that vanguard is not going forward. unless a miracle occurs i am done with the game for good so i want to take the time to thank Silky Venom for all the time put into the game back in the day. i also wish to toast all that vanguard could have been and all the fun we had following the game before release. i almost had as much fun following the pre release as i did actually playing the game. i am planning on SW:TOR being the game that holds my attention for a while. in the meantime i will probably reup VG for it's swansong, be good all and thanks for the memories! CHEERS!

Silky Venom, the guild, "back-in-the-day" and now, appreciates the thanks but wishes to point out that we, as a guild, are not done with the content in Vanguard, we're still having fun raiding and helping new folks and building up our alts.

Oh, there's the occasional glum pronouncement once in awhile ... how could there not be. But, we welcome returning folks and we're certainly interested in getting to know new players who enjoy the old-style (as in kill the darn mob asap!) mmog.

Lovi

[Lonestryder]

Originally Posted by Nepenthia

Silky Venom, the guild, "back-in-the-day" and now, appreciates the thanks but wishes to point out that we, as a guild, are not done with the content in Vanguard, we're still having fun raiding and helping new folks and building up our alts.

Oh, there's the occasional glum pronouncement once in awhile ... how could there not be. But, we welcome returning folks and we're certainly interested in getting to know new players who enjoy the old-style (as in kill the darn mob asap!) mmog.

Lovi

Well stated Nepenthia. However, I would like to offer a different perspective. While there is much to be said for enjoying oneself despite the state of the state, there are those of us who rely on the overall health of a game for our total enjoyment. For some (me included), there is no middle ground. I do, however, applaud and even admire the tenacity with which die hard fans can look beyond the present and create their own reality - kudos to you, I say, and happy adventures to you.

As for me, of course I understand that everything must come to an eventual end. Rather than age with grace, however, Vanguard has chosen time and again the most inelegant method of taking two steps backward for every step forward. To me, it is painfully obvious that Vanguard is both without leadership and without direction. This awkward process has left Vanguard without an identity as it ambles toward the cliff of oblivion. As a discriminating gamer-hobbiest, Vangaurd simply doesn't make the cut.

I think I speak for many of us when I say that I wish it were otherwise.

[Nepenthia]

Smile, I agree with what you have said and ... I hope I'm at least a somewhat discriminating gamer-hobbiest too ... even if I continue to play VG as it is now.

It's true that, most of the time, I ignore what is going on with SOE or the future of VG and just enjoy playing. Unfortunately SOE's decisions have had and continue to have an impact on my enjoyment in-game because friends and guildies have decided to look elsewhere for games. So it's not as rosy as perhaps it seems from my earlier words, rather, it's that I still enjoy the guild, the gameplay and the world as it is and see no attractive alternative.

If I stop having fun, then there may be no gaming for awhile but Fozzik's idea certainly isn't a bad one. Who knows, if pvp games having population troubles suddenly started growing after offering a pve server, perhaps starting to develop a new pve game would not seem so fruitless.

Originally Posted by Lonestryder

Well stated Nepenthia. However, I would like to offer a different perspective. While there is much to be said for enjoying oneself despite the state of the state, there are those of us who rely on the overall health of a game for our total enjoyment. For some (me included), there is no middle ground. I do, however, applaud and even admire the tenacity with which die hard fans can look beyond the present and create their own reality - kudos to you, I say, and happy adventures to you.

As for me, of course I understand that everything must come to an eventual end. Rather than age with grace, however, Vanguard has chosen time and again the most inelegant method of taking two steps backward for every step forward. To me, it is painfully obvious that Vanguard is both without leadership and without direction. This awkward process has left Vanguard without an identity as it ambles toward the cliff of oblivion. As a discriminating gamer-hobbiest, Vangaurd simply doesn't make the cut.

I think I speak for many of us when I say that I wish it were otherwise.

[Loampounder]

It looks like, after three weeks of sleeping, Silius came back to the forum to say, in reference to HoSS, "almost finished" means "as a whole far from finished".

[dabble]

"Almost done, but far from finished" He really is full of it.

[AsheMan]

He claims HOSS is not close then goes on to claim it's almost done but QA and such would take too much effort. It's all just bullshit.

[Amsra]

Silius lies...this is known.....

[Arctic_Slicer]

More proof that Sony doesn't have a damned clue. Stuff like this is standard practice for SOE and has been for a number of years. They don't understand that when the beta test ends so ends the time to make significant changes to the game. It's like Coca-Cola or a television series; customers expect the product to deliver the same thing every time. SOE is too interested in making the quick buck thinks of their customers as expendable as they make sweeping changes to their games to appeal to what they think will be better game while failing to understand that the customers they have only play the current game based on what it was not what SOE thought it should be. As George Santayana famously said; "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" It seems SOE is going to repeat the same mistakes a few more times before they learn the lesson.

Unlike many of you posting in this forum who still seem to be active players of this game; I gave up my account when SOE brought LiveGamer into the picture 10 months ago and hardly even follow the game anymore. I just happened to check in on this website and see that was again "the end is nigh". With 10 years of experience with SOE my expectations of them are exceedingly low and for anyone to expect better from them are simply deluding themselves.

P.S.
Fozzik, I think that the implementation of full PvP has a lot to do with the influence of EVE online; which many consider to be the baseline for the hardcore game. Seeing the success of EVE, game developers designing for the hardcore niche have chosen to go with the games most talked about features such as full PvP and single server worlds; a feature that almost killed Darkfall upon release. I completely agree with you that it would be nice if they allowed a PvE server but as was the case with Darkfall the developers would rather kill the game than even think about opening up a second server; though you have to give them credit for sticking with their vision.

Probably the best hardcore PvP game on the market right now is the Square Enix's 8 year old Final Fantasy XI. It's probably the only game out there to release a half dozen expansions while still retaining a level 4 and higher exp loss with possibility of level loss penalty while also be very hard to defeat the MOBs without a group. It's probably the closest thing you will get to the original EverQuest on the market right now. I hear that Final Fantasy XIV is in the works as Square Enix's next MMPORPG and given the success Final Fantasy XI as a hardcore game; it will definitely be a game worth following.