[Gecon]

So ... what you're saying is : you're not interested in the game. Teh. Then why do you post here ?

[Vanguard2112]

I knew something was wrong the first day I explored Aughrum (that city downriver from Khal) and in one small building was the dark knight trainer and the paladin trainer just standing there, together.

When I compare that to something like the Guildhalls of Bertoxulous deep in the sewers beneath the everquest town of Qeynos, with pools of blood and skeleton guards,etc. .... there is no comparison.

But but but... things could of gotten better, time could of been spent fixing bugs and tech stuff, and adding detail and consistancy to the world.

BUT instead they left the dark knight and paladin trainers in their little love shack and took away faction, implemented riftways everywhere, noobified the xp and the death penalties, gave everyone flying reindeer,etc.

Im a total fool but I keep hopeing the new devs will "turn it around" and make vangaurd hardcore again.

Of course instead they will just give the players Pantheon of the Ancients: Stirhand Edition and Pankor Zi addition and call it a day.

[AsheMan]

No matter what they do, there will be people unhappy with it and will likely cause some people to quit. I can't foresee any new players actually subbing because of whatever small patches they do. It seems like a no-win situation and I can't fathom why SOE would put any extra resources into it.

[Lonestryder]

Originally Posted by Gecon

So ... what you're saying is : you're not interested in the game. Teh. Then why do you post here ?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

And you are?

[mmorpeegee]

Originally Posted by Gecon

So ... what you're saying is : you're not interested in the game. Teh. Then why do you post here ?

Very few (if any) of the posters here actually play Vanguard. Most of us are just curious to see what happens to it, but aren't necessarily interested in playing it. There is an "other games" section too where we update each other about other games. This isn't the Vanguard hat3rz club, but it's not a fanclub either. Most of us have played Vanguard, quit Vanguard, played it again... and given it second third and fourth chances. Don't mistake "I'm not interested in Vanguard anymore" posts as being cold hearted or something. It comes from people who desperately wanted the game to succeed but it just failed at every step of the way, and every time our hopes are boosted by a SOE patch, it ends up doing more harm than good. Fool us once, fool us twice... most of us have been seeing these updates and patches and free months and feigned enthusiasm from SOE for about 3 or 4 years now. Don't blame us for being uninterested in it by now. Some of us desperately wanted a re-launch, or even just some good updates to "save the game". But that ship sailed, ages ago.

Originally Posted by Vanguard2112

one small building was the dark knight trainer and the paladin trainer just standing there, together.

When I compare that to something like the Guildhalls of Bertoxulous deep in the sewers beneath the everquest town of Qeynos, with pools of blood and skeleton guards,etc. .... there is no comparison.

Im a total fool but I keep hopeing the new devs will "turn it around" and make vangaurd hardcore again.

Of course instead they will just give the players Pantheon of the Ancients: Stirhand Edition and Pankor Zi addition and call it a day.

Originally Posted by AsheMan

I can't foresee any new players actually subbing because of whatever small patches they do. It seems like a no-win situation and I can't fathom why SOE would put any extra resources into it.

Agreed

[Dragon-RD]

Well my opinion has always been:

1. Vanguard was shit at launch.

2. I actually think SoE did as best they could to actually make the game survive for as long as it has done. To be honest, Vanguard is a better game now than it would ever have been under the control and management of Sigil. Yes, that's my opinion but I fail to see it any other way.

3. Vanguard is a playable game now, but in my eyes, and I'm sure the minds of many of us here, it's stale.

[mmorpeegee]

Me too. 1 and 3 at least. It's all just way too little and too late. It was such a promising game, but that was in like 2007/2008.

[tdewey10]

Originally Posted by Lonestryder

So many things have changed along the way since those early days, but one thing that remains annoyingly the same is the utter lack of project management in Vanguard. Actually, forget about project management for a moment - common sense has been lacking in Vanguard from the very beginning. The juxtaposition of positively brilliant ideas mixed with mediocre to slopply implementation have plagued this game, and yet I continued to play.

Pretty much nailed it. A+ would read again.

[tdewey10]

Apparently first patch in a year was today...

[Gecon]

Originally Posted by Vanguard2112

I knew something was wrong the first day I explored Aughrum (that city downriver from Khal) and in one small building was the dark knight trainer and the paladin trainer just standing there, together.

When I compare that to something like the Guildhalls of Bertoxulous deep in the sewers beneath the everquest town of Qeynos, with pools of blood and skeleton guards,etc. .... there is no comparison.

But but but... things could of gotten better, time could of been spent fixing bugs and tech stuff, and adding detail and consistancy to the world.

BUT instead they left the dark knight and paladin trainers in their little love shack and took away faction, implemented riftways everywhere, noobified the xp and the death penalties, gave everyone flying reindeer,etc.

Im a total fool but I keep hopeing the new devs will "turn it around" and make vangaurd hardcore again.

Of course instead they will just give the players Pantheon of the Ancients: Stirhand Edition and Pankor Zi addition and call it a day.

What "new devs" are you talking about ? Last official patch of Vanguard was in 2010 ... the server merge.

I completely fail to see your point with your two trainers. Please explain that further. I frankly have no idea what you're talking about in the first place. Yeah there are two trainers. So what ? You need trainers, dont you ?

I fail to see the point of making travel slow. The last thing I would call that is "hardcore". Its just boring and wasting my precious lifetime - and nothing else. I certainly prefer much more to be faster in the action. That way I have better chances to get a group at all, and have fun at all. Especially now with the low population.

Well ... yes, xp is too high. I always said that. They should have LOWERED the xp rates, not raised them even more. That was pure peer pressure from other games. But Vanguard is different than other games. It has a huge world and theres ton of content even I have never seen. You just level too fast to stand a chance to see it. So yeah, xp rates should have been lowered ... but thats a moot point now. With almost no population, being able to level a character to 55 in about 2 weeks, if you want to, is a big plus. And if you DONT want to, well you have the xp debuff now. I havent tried using it again since I restarted, but when I left it sadly still gave quest xp, which was highly annoying.

I think Vanguard really nailed the death penalty in the sweet spot. Thats exactly how a death penalty should be. Annoying and existent, so death matters - but then again not so strong people never take any risks at all, which isnt hardcore, its again just making gaming more boring, because everyone is playing safe. I only wished all other games had a death penalty exactly like this.

I dont think the flying Reindeers count. They only gave them away once everyone was gone anyway. I really see absolutely no issue in giving people in a dying game some nice extra that makes it easier for the remaining people to group at all.

Originally Posted by AsheMan

No matter what they do, there will be people unhappy with it and will likely cause some people to quit. [...]

Often true, but new high quality quest content is usually not a reason for anyone to quit.

Also, as long as you have someone at the top who has a VISION of what the hell this game is about, meaning you dont change the game around all the time just "to be more like WoW", but clearly filter ideas from other MMOs according to what THIS game is, you shouldnt have too much trouble. People have bought this game for a certain kind of experience. As long as you provide this kind of experience, yes people will still leave, but they wont leave because you added or changed things.

And the practical question is of course: will it cause more people to resub than to quit ?

[Gecon]

Originally Posted by tdewey10

Apparently first patch in a year was today...

I didnt mentioned it downloaded new stuff ... and there are no patch notes.

As far as I know, small patches have always been made silently. Apparently somebody is still working on the game, even if only rather parttime.

Who knows ? Maybe Silius is doing it as hobby in his free time.

[AsheMan]

Originally Posted by Gecon

I completely fail to see your point with your two trainers. Please explain that further. I frankly have no idea what you're talking about in the first place. Yeah there are two trainers. So what ? You need trainers, dont you ?

From a lore perspective, Shadowknights and Paladins are like oil and water; complete opposites and enemies. His example of the class halls in Everquest was to illustrate how unique, detailed and different the Paladin and Shadowknight guilds were and if one walked into the other then there would be a fight! There wasn't much effort given to that type of lore realism in Vanguard. They took your attitude; They're just trainers. Stick them in a hut together.

[mmorpeegee]

I'm pretty horrified you don't even know what he meant

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by AsheMan

From a lore perspective, Shadowknights and Paladins are like oil and water; complete opposites and enemies. His example of the class halls in Everquest was to illustrate how unique, detailed and different the Paladin and Shadowknight guilds were and if one walked into the other then there would be a fight! There wasn't much effort given to that type of lore realism in Vanguard. They took your attitude; They're just trainers. Stick them in a hut together.

And in a major city, I would hope class trainers would be linked to a city organization with lore-based purpose rather than next to a hut.

Originally Posted by mmorpeegee

I'm pretty horrified you don't even know what he meant

I think must of us left around these parts share the Vanguard2112 mindset while Gecon is from a different faction.

[Vanguard2112]

In one of the interviews with R.A. Salvatore (who is helping make an MMO currently) he answers a question that kind of sums up what vanguard failed at post releasse:

What are some of the things that designers need to keep in mind when they're creating worlds to set their games in?

RS: Whether it's writing a book or creating world for a game, the most important thing you're asking people for is their suspension of disbelief. That's the critical thing. You're all going to come up with different sweet spots that you want to work on in a world with a different tone.


And I think the key is really consistency. It's making the music fit the art, and the art fit the story, and the story fit the races, and the races fit the whole tone of the world.

The more consistency you have, the less you're going to be throwing people out of the world. The more they're immersed in it, the more they're gonna care about it. The more they care about it, you win. Whether it's a book or a game.

-Orcs from a slave society doing all the quests in the nearby human and elf cities they prey. (removal of faction)

-Dark Knights and Paladins just sitting in an empty room waiting for their minions of dread/virtue to come train side by side

-red nosed flying reindeer

-lazor gun robocop gnomes

-Slappy the rapping and breakdanceing ..goblin? or wtf ever he was.

etc.

What vanguard needed, desperatly, was a firm hand overseeing lore and consistency in the game.

I guess im disapointed in that I liked the physical world of vanguard, I loved the class and race designs, and liked the combat. But the attention to detail was not there, and then those changes to the game post launch..each one was a gunshot to the head to the ideas RA Salvatore is talking about above.

They took a gameworld that needed some stitching up, that had "potential" to be great, and instead took a machette to its guts.

Each patch those first several months just astonished me, it was like watching a young lad that showed potential grow into Sloth from the goonies before your very eyes.

[Lonestryder]

Originally Posted by Vanguard2112

In one of the interviews with R.A. Salvatore (who is helping make an MMO currently) he answers a question that kind of sums up what vanguard failed at post releasse:

What are some of the things that designers need to keep in mind when they're creating worlds to set their games in?

RS: Whether it's writing a book or creating world for a game, the most important thing you're asking people for is their suspension of disbelief. That's the critical thing. You're all going to come up with different sweet spots that you want to work on in a world with a different tone.


And I think the key is really consistency. It's making the music fit the art, and the art fit the story, and the story fit the races, and the races fit the whole tone of the world.

The more consistency you have, the less you're going to be throwing people out of the world. The more they're immersed in it, the more they're gonna care about it. The more they care about it, you win. Whether it's a book or a game.

-Orcs from a slave society doing all the quests in the nearby human and elf cities they prey. (removal of faction)

-Dark Knights and Paladins just sitting in an empty room waiting for their minions of dread/virtue to come train side by side

-red nosed flying reindeer

-lazor gun robocop gnomes

-Slappy the rapping and breakdanceing ..goblin? or wtf ever he was.

etc.

What vanguard needed, desperatly, was a firm hand overseeing lore and consistency in the game.

I guess im disapointed in that I liked the physical world of vanguard, I loved the class and race designs, and liked the combat. But the attention to detail was not there, and then those changes to the game post launch..each one was a gunshot to the head to the ideas RA Salvatore is talking about above.

They took a gameworld that needed some stitching up, that had "potential" to be great, and instead took a machette to its guts.

Each patch those first several months just astonished me, it was like watching a young lad that showed potential grow into Sloth from the goonies before your very eyes.

What are you (and others like you/me) playing?

[Vanguard2112]

truthfully? nothing.

I've sampled a few games but can't get "into" any of them (talking MMOs here). Im kind of on hiatus from MMOS (for the first time since 1999, and by hiatus I mean lack of desire to play).

There really is just nothing out there, its a wasteland for "immersion" mmo'ers, unless you are willing to flashback to retro/old games like say UO or EQ's Al'kabor (macintosh) server.

I feel the draw to play either Vanaurd or Al'kabor everquest , and "may" start back up on one of them soon. I'm kind of waiting to see the first new production letter the "new" VG devs come out with first though. If they keep going down the same path as Silius took the game, I just cannot support them with a dime.

I'm just not into the new generation of MMOs which all amount to a quest grind to max and no real risk or consequence or thought nessesary. Just can't do it.

[mmorpeegee]

Originally Posted by Lonestryder

What are you (and others like you/me) playing?

I just play none MMO's. To me they all suck equally pretty much. The only exception is Shards of Dalaya which I like, but there are only so many years you can play something..

Currently I just play Arma 2, and then older games like Storm of Zehir (Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion), Command & Conquer, Jade Empire sometimes, and the Microprose Magic the Gathering game for PC which has been modded to run new cards.

I am constantly bored by all of them though. I often wonder if my days of gaming are numbered.

[Lonestryder]

Good feedback, fellas.

In the meantime, I'll be playing Vanguard my way until something else comes along.

[cshaw419]

Originally Posted by Vanguard2112

In one of the interviews with R.A. Salvatore (who is helping make an MMO currently)

That is probably the next fantasy MMO that I will try to play, and it's probably 2-4 years away from being released. They have a "codename" for the game, not a real name, and only concept art has been released. It's pretty far off. That being said, it looks like a team that is much more interested in creating the game they want to create, than trying to slap together something and get it out ASAP.