[Fozzik]

I've been posting a poll on a few other communities...and I thought I'd put it up here as well. The results have been pretty interesting so far.

This is a poll specifically about Guild Wars 2, taking into account all we currently know about the mechanics and systems in the game. They have chosen the B2P model instead of the subscription model, which means you buy the box and expansions, they offer something in a cash shop, and there is no subscription at all for the game. This model could be beneficial to players, because you could spend less money over the long term by only buying what you want, rather than being required to pay $15 a month regardless of what you get. However, if the cash shop provides too much, or provides the wrong type of items, it very well might ruin the game for many players and not be worth the subscription savings at all.

After reading and watching every interview and video I can find, and after talking with the community, I believe the only DEFINITIVE thing we know from ArenaNet is that they haven't decided yet what they are going to offer, and that they are interested in what the community would find appropriate.

So, because of all of the above, I think the best way to help us better define where the line should be drawn...and perhaps provide some helpful data to ArenaNet... I'd like to just list everything I can think of that might be sold, and have everyone vote -

What do you consider appropriate, what's inappropriate, and feel free to include explanation if you want. Are some of these game breakers for you (you won't buy the game if they sell them)?

Please respond by listing the numbers with a YES / NO next to them, based on how you feel about the appropriateness of selling each one in the cash shop.

1) Account services - name change, sex change, race change, server transfer, etc.

2) Purely cosmetic items which are also available in-game (transmutation stones, hair or face change, etc)

3) Purely Cosmetic Items which are NOT available in-game - exclusive to microtransaction shop (transmutation stones, hair or face change, etc)

4) Armor and weapons that provide no statistical or power advantage, and are also available in game. (armor / weapons "skins")

5) Armor and weapons that provide no statistical or power advantage, but are not available in-game ("skins" exclusive to microtransaction shop)

6) Armor and weapons which provide a stistical or power advantage over what is available in-game.

7) Skills, talents, traits, etc. - packs or piecemeal selling of abilities which you would normally earn in-game by playing the game.

8) Collectibles (items with no stats or power or value other than as a collectible) which are also available to earn in-game (mini pets, dyes, etc)

9) Collectibles (items with no stats or power or value other than as a collectible) which are not available in-game (mini pets, dyes, etc) - exclusive to the microtransaction shop.

10) DLC - packs of content smaller and cheaper than expansions.... dungeons, chapters of personal story, etc.

11) Items which "shortcut" the normal play of the game (experience potions, travel speed boosts, treasure maps, etc)

12) Items which increase a player's power or statistics for a limited time (stat or hp or mana potions, buffs, etc)

13) Additional Character slots

14) Pre-made characters (mid-level or max-level characters)

15) Content "unlocks" - selling the keys to some content which is already in the game, but blocked from use.

16) Recipes / materials for crafting

17) Extra Bank slots


Here's the current results I've collected so far -
http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/gal...s_original.jpg

[AsheMan]

1) Account services - name change, sex change, race change, server transfer, etc. Yes, that would be acceptable for me.

2) Purely cosmetic items which are also available in-game (transmutation stones, hair or face change, etc) Yes, this is acceptable.

3) Purely Cosmetic Items which are NOT available in-game - exclusive to microtransaction shop (transmutation stones, hair or face change, etc) Yes, I'm okay with that.

4) Armor and weapons that provide no statistical or power advantage, and are also available in game. (armor / weapons "skins")No, make the players play the game for actual equipment.

5) Armor and weapons that provide no statistical or power advantage, but are not available in-game ("skins" exclusive to microtransaction shop) No, make the players play the game for actual equipment.

6) Armor and weapons which provide a stistical or power advantage over what is available in-game. Absolutely not. If this is in the game then I won't play the game.

7) Skills, talents, traits, etc. - packs or piecemeal selling of abilities which you would normally earn in-game by playing the game. No, make the players play the game for skills, talents, etc.

8) Collectibles (items with no stats or power or value other than as a collectible) which are also available to earn in-game (mini pets, dyes, etc) Yes.

9) Collectibles (items with no stats or power or value other than as a collectible) which are not available in-game (mini pets, dyes, etc) - exclusive to the microtransaction shop. Yes, but I'd prefer them accessible by in-game accomplishments.

10) DLC - packs of content smaller and cheaper than expansions.... dungeons, chapters of personal story, etc. No. Please stick to the expansion model. Don't nickel and dime me with small content.

11) Items which "shortcut" the normal play of the game (experience potions, travel speed boosts, treasure maps, etc) No.

12) Items which increase a player's power or statistics for a limited time (stat or hp or mana potions, buffs, etc) No, I prefer these bonuses come in-game in some way.

13) Additional Character slots That would be acceptable, depending on how many slots a standard account starts with.

14) Pre-made characters (mid-level or max-level characters) No, absolutely not. This would be a deal breaker.

15) Content "unlocks" - selling the keys to some content which is already in the game, but blocked from use. No, absolutely not.

16) Recipes / materials for crafting No, this should all be available in-game.

17) Extra Bank slots I'd say no, but it might depend if a standard account had a fair amount of storage to begin with.

[mmorpeegee]

Personally I don't care how they take my money, a monthly fee, a one off payment and then lots of expansions, or micropayments. As long as they all add up to a similar and reasonable amount then I'm fine with however they want to do it.

There's just two things I hate and microtransactions can sometimes end up like this depending who is doing it. One is if to get an enjoyable experience you need to buy sooo many little things, that it adds up to a LOT of money. And secondly is when they release crappy downloadable content that is just not worth playing. The first one is an issue I've had with Magic the Gathering games, I had to spend hundreds of dollars to get an enjoyable experience and that's just not right. The second issue I've had with games like Dragon Age and Elder Scrolls which have an endless stream of these DLC's which are not that expensive but they are just totally worthless in terms of enjoyment. I hate spending $8 on some crappy DLC that I complete in an hour. I would rather spend $30 and get a proper expansion that lasts months like the good ole days. If a company was to ever argue that it's not profitable for them to make expansion packs anymore then I would just agree to disagree while I'm playing someone elses game, and I would also suggest to them that they run a crappy business.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

What do you consider appropriate, what's inappropriate, and feel free to include explanation if you want. Are some of these game breakers for you (you won't buy the game if they sell them)?

Please respond by listing the numbers with a YES / NO next to them, based on how you feel about the appropriateness of selling each one in the cash shop.

1) Account services - name change, sex change, race change, server transfer, etc.

Yes, that's fine. I have never done that in a game ever, so it's not something I would really mind having to pay a bit for, if I did ever need/want to do that some day.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

2) Purely cosmetic items which are also available in-game (transmutation stones, hair or face change, etc)

Yes. That's the best way to have microtransactions imo. People will buy stuff but it wont ruin the game.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

3) Purely Cosmetic Items which are NOT available in-game - exclusive to microtransaction shop (transmutation stones, hair or face change, etc)

Ditto previous

Originally Posted by Fozzik

4) Armor and weapons that provide no statistical or power advantage, and are also available in game. (armor / weapons "skins")

Ditto previous

Originally Posted by Fozzik

5) Armor and weapons that provide no statistical or power advantage, but are not available in-game ("skins" exclusive to microtransaction shop)

ditto previous

Originally Posted by Fozzik

6) Armor and weapons which provide a stistical or power advantage over what is available in-game.

No. I wouldn't want to play a game like that anyway.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

7) Skills, talents, traits, etc. - packs or piecemeal selling of abilities which you would normally earn in-game by playing the game.

no wai

Originally Posted by Fozzik

8) Collectibles (items with no stats or power or value other than as a collectible) which are also available to earn in-game (mini pets, dyes, etc)

No. I don't like that. Collectables and cool goodies should be a sign that the player is a thorough explorer type. If people can just buy stuff then it makes all that utterly worthless to me. The same is true about the armor in the previous points but I let them slide :P I dont mind people buying SOME stuff like that but you can't have a game where everything collectible can just be bought, otherwise it's just Malibu Stacey online.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

9) Collectibles (items with no stats or power or value other than as a collectible) which are not available in-game (mini pets, dyes, etc) - exclusive to the microtransaction shop.

Yes. Fine, if people want to spend real money on useless stuff then that's fine by me :P

Originally Posted by Fozzik

10) DLC - packs of content smaller and cheaper than expansions.... dungeons, chapters of personal story, etc.

I just don't like this as a concept because I am convinced it's never good value. These rip off companies will happily sell you one dungeon for $3. It seems cheap and everyone says "BUT ITZ ONLIE $3!!!!!!!!!", but the fact is, by the time you have bought what you would normally get in a proper expansion pack, you have spent far more than you would if they just did a $30 expansion pack like they did with EQ. Stuff like Kunark for example, I am happy to pay pretty much the full price of a game for something like that, because that one thing contained about 8 months content or something.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

11) Items which "shortcut" the normal play of the game (experience potions, travel speed boosts, treasure maps, etc)

No waiee

Originally Posted by Fozzik

12) Items which increase a player's power or statistics for a limited time (stat or hp or mana potions, buffs, etc)

ditto previous

Originally Posted by Fozzik

13) Additional Character slots

I don't like this because greedy bastard companies like SoE would exploit it by giving you 1 slot and each new slot would be $5-10 when in the good ole days you just got 10 slots for free. I also consider atleast several slots to be an essential basic requirement of a good MMO, so if they only gave me say 3, I would factor in the cost of extra ones and it worked out at quite a lot I would be inclined to not buy the game just on principle. I am happy to pay full price like I have done for the past 20 something years of gaming, I just don't like shady crap, and a lot of companies today are all about shady crap. /glare at EA.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

14) Pre-made characters (mid-level or max-level characters)

Urgh no

Originally Posted by Fozzik

15) Content "unlocks" - selling the keys to some content which is already in the game, but blocked from use.

No I hate stuff like that so so much.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

16) Recipes / materials for crafting

No

Originally Posted by Fozzik

17) Extra Bank slots

Ditto number 13

[Loampounder]

1) Account services - name change, sex change, race change, server transfer, etc. - NO

2) Purely cosmetic items which are also available in-game (transmutation stones, hair or face change, etc)- NO


3) Purely Cosmetic Items which are NOT available in-game - exclusive to microtransaction shop (transmutation stones, hair or face change, etc)- NO


4) Armor and weapons that provide no statistical or power advantage, and are also available in game. (armor / weapons "skins")- NO


5) Armor and weapons that provide no statistical or power advantage, but are not available in-game ("skins" exclusive to microtransaction shop)- NO


6) Armor and weapons which provide a stistical or power advantage over what is available in-game.- NO


7) Skills, talents, traits, etc. - packs or piecemeal selling of abilities which you would normally earn in-game by playing the game.- NO


8) Collectibles (items with no stats or power or value other than as a collectible) which are also available to earn in-game (mini pets, dyes, etc)- NO


9) Collectibles (items with no stats or power or value other than as a collectible) which are not available in-game (mini pets, dyes, etc) - exclusive to the microtransaction shop.- NO


10) DLC - packs of content smaller and cheaper than expansions.... dungeons, chapters of personal story, etc.- NO


11) Items which "shortcut" the normal play of the game (experience potions, travel speed boosts, treasure maps, etc)- NO


12) Items which increase a player's power or statistics for a limited time (stat or hp or mana potions, buffs, etc)- NO


13) Additional Character slots- NO


14) Pre-made characters (mid-level or max-level characters)- NO


15) Content "unlocks" - selling the keys to some content which is already in the game, but blocked from use.- NO


16) Recipes / materials for crafting- NO


17) Extra Bank slots- NO

I have two major reasons - introducing any microtransactions in the game breaks apart the community in the sense that we are not all playing with the same material and microtransactions are just a slippery slope that companies cannot resist once they started. Of course, I am more of a hardcore person who does not want to play an online game in order to play a game, but to be part of a community and part of an immersive world. I tried LOTRO, but it became too much of game barriers and in-your-face advertising.

[AsheMan]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

I tried LOTRO, but it became too much of game barriers and in-your-face advertising.

It wasn't like that at all before the F2P model was inserted.

[Fozzik]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

I have two major reasons - introducing any microtransactions in the game breaks apart the community in the sense that we are not all playing with the same material and microtransactions are just a slippery slope that companies cannot resist once they started. Of course, I am more of a hardcore person who does not want to play an online game in order to play a game, but to be part of a community and part of an immersive world. I tried LOTRO, but it became too much of game barriers and in-your-face advertising.

I agree with you to a large extent, I come from the same "old school" ...but the issue is that if you want to play a game with no microtransaction shop, you are going to have no games to play pretty soon. Development companies are not going to ignore the additional revenue available...and I think that even now, there are very few games, if any, with no microtransactions.

So, we're kind of forced in a changing industry to choose...do we give up gaming all together? I've actually considered that several times in the last few years, and it may still end up being the best thing for me. The only other choice is to try and work with game companies to set up boundaries for this new model...help at least the more honorable companies find the common ground that would be acceptable, and let them know that there's a firm line they can't cross.

ArenaNet as a company has a very good reputation among its players. The philosophy behind the cash shop in Guild Wars 2 is going to be very much like the one in the first guild wars, which they held the line on for more than five years (not sliding down the slippery slope, except in the one case of an issue with the original design of their PvP).

Not all games that offer a shop become the stereotypical free-to-play messes that games like LOTR have become. I believe it's possible that ArenaNet is genuinely trying to maintain the integrity and value of their game world and economy... while still offering a greater choice to players. They've talked often about getting player's feedback on what's appropriate, and what isn't, and they seem willing to listen.

They've opted for a no-subscription model, where you buy the box and then can play indefinitely without spending any more money. This is different than free-to-play obviously...because the revenue coming in from box and expansion sales lets them take a much less...invasive approach with their microtransaction shop. They've said repeatedly that the cash shop won't sell power or advantage, and that it will never be REQIRED to have a complete and enjoyable experience with the game.

What it does do, is allow players to only pay for things they want, or things they feel are worth it...Instead of paying $15 a month regardless of what the company provides. Anyway...I'm just trying to hopefully provide them with some real info from the community so they can make good decisions. If their cash shop does become too invasive and steps over the line, I won't be playing their game either.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

...but the issue is that if you want to play a game with no microtransaction shop, you are going to have no games to play pretty soon.

Sadly, yes. I just finished playing through Baldur's Gate 1 the other day.

I recently got TW: Shogun II recently. It's fun, but I refuse to buy their add-on that has some new skins and another state. TW games used to have a lot of free mods, and I loved those.

The only other choice is to try and work with game companies to set up boundaries for this new model...help at least the more honorable companies find the common ground that would be acceptable, and let them know that there's a firm line they can't cross.

So, you you drop a firm line to get a new one, so that you can let them you that there's a firm line they can't cross?

I believe it's possible that ArenaNet is genuinely trying to maintain the integrity and value of their game world and economy... while still offering a greater choice to players. They've talked often about getting player's feedback on what's appropriate, and what isn't, and they seem willing to listen.

Yes, I heard the same PR speil from SOE as well, with their polls and listening to the customers lies. They listen, in so far as to see how much the general audience will tolerate, so they know where the line to push is.

This is different than free-to-play obviously...because the revenue coming in from box and expansion sales lets them take a much less...invasive approach with their microtransaction shop.

Only superlatives. It's only a balancing act between the money they make and how much invasivosity the gamer will take. The fact is they choose microtransactions all ready and are trying to market down the pain.

If their cash shop does become too invasive and steps over the line, I won't be playing their game either

.

But the idea of judging the nuisance factor at each game change is pathetic. It has that feeling of Damocles' Sword.

In fairness, buying the initial box is a financial transaction needed for the game. And expansions (I have bought a few) do have the potential of splitting up a community. So, based on past experience, I have tolerated these types of transactions, but they were big milestones sort of outside of the game. If I have to have surgury, I will, but please don't needle-poke me to death.

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by AsheMan

It wasn't like that at all before the F2P model was inserted.

When I left, they had slpash screens with advertisements. I was playing my warden when I would get a splash screen encouraging me to go to the store and buy the warden class.

The point is, companies go into a microtransaction model so that they can balance their profit. If the profit they expected is not coming in, they need to adjust until they get what they want from the business model. A company may WANT to "genuinely" try to maintain integrity, but going with the microtransaction model highlights their built-in method of changing the game.

[Fozzik]

You must realize that SOE is a singularly bad example of how customers should be treated...even if SOE said all the same things that ArenaNet is saying, I did mention that ArenaNet has a good reputation with their customers from Guild Wars 1 of maintaining the line pretty well... completely different from SOE's reputation among their customers, you must admit.

I agree, that we're being forced by the industry to redraw our lines...but again, our choice is to make the best of it, choose the games we pay for carefully, or else don't play MMORPGs at all.

ArenaNet has said that their shop won't ever be required, that buying the box and the expansions will provide you with a complete game experience. I don't plan on ever buying any in-game item under any circumstances. I will probably use the account services at some point (name change, server transfer, whatever), but other than that cash shops are definitely not something in which I want to participate. So, in terms of what I'm actually buying...Guild Wars 2 will be just like every previous MMORPG I've played, except that I won't be paying a monthly fee. Pretty nice, if they pull it off.

If other folks want to buy some cosmetic items like clothes or mini-pets, more power to them...it doesn't really affect my gaming experience other than to glance at them and say, "I wouldn't have spent real money on that..."

[Loampounder]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

...
I agree, that we're being forced by the industry to redraw our lines...but again, our choice is to make the best of it, choose the games we pay for carefully, or else don't play MMORPGs at all.

ArenaNet has said that their shop won't ever be required, that buying the box and the expansions will provide you with a complete game experience. ...

But for a MMORPG, the "complete game experience" is not defined as being able to visit all the lands or do all the dungeons. If there are things in the game that are not accessable or obtainable by normal play, then you won't get the "complete game experience". Since community immersion is a big factor (or used to be) for MMORPGs, any instance where the barrier is money blocks the experience. In older MMORPG's, everything was earned or possible.

You can say "I would never buy that" and move on, but I noticed how you said "it doesn't REALLY affect my gaming experience ..." You are all ready qualifying your game experience.

[mmorpeegee]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

If other folks want to buy some cosmetic items like clothes or mini-pets, more power to them...it doesn't really affect my gaming experience other than to glance at them and say, "I wouldn't have spent real money on that..."

Same. I don't care what people buy so long as it doesn't give them an edge. With Guild Wars in particular, I think more than microtransactions, they rely on expansions. There are a lot for the first game (something like a dozen or so), so it's similar to Everquest. But without a monthly fee, that's a lot of money saved. It always bugged me with EQ that they required you to do both. They argued that you didn't NEED the expansions but you really did if you wanted to continue playing, so you basically had to buy EQ, buy all the expansions, and pay monthly as well. At least with Guild Wars it removes one of those.

With microtransactions, I would in fact rather they have some than none, because at least it's a way for them to make extra money and it doesn't have to come from me! I remember in Vanguard after SoE took over, there were lots of little pet cats and squirrels and stuff like that. I think stuff like that works well with microtransactions because some people like it, but it's such an unimportant part of the game, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything important by not paying for it. Like Lome says, you aren't technically getting 100% of the game, but if all I'm missing is 1% and that 1% is fluffy bunnies following me around in a town, then I am happy to go without that. It's only a problem to me, if they start charging extra for what I consider real content - spells, dungeons, gear, etc.

[AsheMan]

My ultimate preference would be ZERO paid microtransactions. Take my money with full blown expansions.

I believe Guild Wars had 3 expansions, not a dozen. Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North.

[Fozzik]

When I talked about getting the "complete game" I was just trying to draw a distinction between free-to-play games where they charge you for every little thing (10 more levels, 4 more races, this new bag, whatever) with constant pop-ups and tricks, and a game like GW2 where you get the whole game, with just a few cosmetic or frills types of items for sale in a MT shop.

Honestly, the fact that Guild Wars 2 does not have the raiding treadmill for gear upgrades at endgame means much more to me... It means I will get to experience significantly more of the game than I ever did with "traditional" MMORPGs (since early EQ)...without having to change my play style and become a raiding guild member.

So, I'll miss out on some minipets and clothes, but I'll get to experience all of the content within the game, instead of having 40% of it locked away behind raiding...which really is a significant barrier in my mind.

I could probably name 10 other things that GW2 will provide, that are definitely improvements over previous MMORPGs. I think it'll be worth it (we'll see) despite their MT shop.

I like the idea of paying for only what I want and will use... no subscription fee could be very nice. Rather than me paying $15 a month so that they can design a bunch of content for someone else, I'll play for free until they sell something I actually want to buy (like an expansion). Guild Wars 2 will have traditional expansions more like regular MMORPGs... the first Guild Wars expansions were complete stand-alone games that you could add together or play separately.

[mmorpeegee]

Wow just 3 expansions is pretty nice! I wish EQ was like that..

[mmorpeegee]

Hahahah check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtB...layer_embedded

[AsheMan]

Originally Posted by mmorpeegee

Hahahah check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtB...layer_embedded

Haha, so true.

[perfect]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

...Please respond by listing the numbers with a YES / NO next to them, based on how you feel about the appropriateness of selling each one in the cash shop.

1) Account services - name change, sex change, race change, server transfer, etc.

Yes, this is OK.

2) Purely cosmetic items which are also available in-game (transmutation stones, hair or face change, etc)

Yes, this is OK.

3) Purely Cosmetic Items which are NOT available in-game - exclusive to microtransaction shop (transmutation stones, hair or face change, etc)

Less OK but still OK.

4) Armor and weapons that provide no statistical or power advantage, and are also available in game. (armor / weapons "skins")

Why would you have these? My gut says 'no' but if they are just for appearance (like exists in several MMOs now), then that would be OK.

5) Armor and weapons that provide no statistical or power advantage, but are not available in-game ("skins" exclusive to microtransaction shop)

Why would you have these? My gut says 'no' but if they are just for appearance (like exists in several MMOs now), then that would be OK.

6) Armor and weapons which provide a stistical or power advantage over what is available in-game.

No.

7) Skills, talents, traits, etc. - packs or piecemeal selling of abilities which you would normally earn in-game by playing the game.

No.

8) Collectibles (items with no stats or power or value other than as a collectible) which are also available to earn in-game (mini pets, dyes, etc)

Vanity pets and appearance items, yes. Some collectables are used for XP purposes (EQ2 collections, Rift artifacts) and those are a no.

9) Collectibles (items with no stats or power or value other than as a collectible) which are not available in-game (mini pets, dyes, etc) - exclusive to the microtransaction shop.

Vanity pets and appearance items, yes. Some collectables are used for XP purposes (EQ2 collections, Rift artifacts) and those are a no.

10) DLC - packs of content smaller and cheaper than expansions.... dungeons, chapters of personal story, etc.

If the DLC contains items or powers that someone who did not buy the pack can not obtain, then no. That would be akin to selling the powers/items (see 6 and 7). If the DLC is purely story or an alternate path to leveling that is not inherently faster, then yes.

11) Items which "shortcut" the normal play of the game (experience potions, travel speed boosts, treasure maps, etc)

Do not like but have grown accustomed to them. My game? No, not acceptable.

12) Items which increase a player's power or statistics for a limited time (stat or hp or mana potions, buffs, etc)

No.

13) Additional Character slots

Yes.

14) Pre-made characters (mid-level or max-level characters)

Yes. By the Gods, yes. Let people play classes they don't know inside and out in a PvP game against me.

15) Content "unlocks" - selling the keys to some content which is already in the game, but blocked from use.

If the "unlock" contains items or powers that someone who did not buy the key can not obtain, then no. That would be akin to selling the powers/items (see 6 and 7 and 10). If the "unlock" is purely story or an alternate path to leveling that is not inherently faster, then yes.

16) Recipes / materials for crafting

No.

17) Extra Bank slots

Yes, including a shared bank.