[Fozzik]

Originally Posted by Loampounder

With the possibility of easy changes in the store, what will you do at launch?

Nothing is ever permanent and certain...any game could add a shop and start selling pay-to-win at any time.

If they launch with a shop I find acceptable, and I feel like the game is still a game, and not just an expensive set of dress-up dolls...then I'll buy it and enjoy it until I don't.

I think if the game is as good as it looks like it might be, three months of fun in that world would be worth the price of the box. After that, it's the same as any other game. If I continue to enjoy it and think it's worthwhile, I'll keep playing. As soon as it gets old, or they do something stupid, I'm out.

At least it won't require a monthly fee on top of the box price...waiting and seeing is much cheaper in this game than in previous MMORPGs.

[mmorpeegee]

True that, I'll be really happy as long as it keeps me entertained and avoids any major shenanigans until ArcheAge comes along :P

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Personally, I'm not worried about the cash shop at all.

GW1's shop was never pay to win only some minor pay to skip added after all the expansions were already out.

Right now the deluxe edition has one time boosts of Glory and Influence. As far as we know Glory is for cosmetic PVP gear only, and Influence is to unlock guild perks. It's got a golem banker that can only be used for 5 days, and an elite skill which is almost certainly PVE only.

Could it be handled better? Probably. One suggestion I read would have been to charge $20 extra but give a $25 gift card to the cash shop so people can just buy anything anyone else can buy. But to me it's still really far away from being something that would bother me.

If ArenaNet changes their tune and goes pay 2 win I'll be the first one heading back to GW2Guru and raging. Until then I have every reason to give them the benefit of the doubt and I'm planning on jumping all over this game with the 3 day head start.

[Fozzik]

The problem is deciding exactly what constitutes P2W in an MMORPG. The genre normally doesn't lend itself to a strict idea of "winning"...and each game is somewhat different in the goals that are available to the player.

To me, "winning" in an MMORPG is about getting the fun AND MEANINGFUL experiences, advancing my character, and obtaining the cool stuff that I desire. If people can shortcut or bypass play, and obtain the cool stuff, just by forking over a few dollars...that's pay to win because it not only provides the "winning" to them without them having to play for it...it also cheapens and devalues everyone's experience and achievements.

The line gets really blurry in a game like GW2, and I'm not entirely sure it isn't on purpose. What I mean is that it seems quite likely that they purposefully designed their game so that literally EVERYTHING in the whole game could be explained away if it were offered in the cash shop.

"Oh, that's just a temporary increase in power, everyone catches up."

"Oh, that can only be used for cosmetic rewards."

"That only provides a little advantage, so it's no big deal."

I mean, think about it. Can you name me one thing in GW2 that couldn't be explained away as fine for the cash shop? Where is the line?

The most obvious example of my problems with the recent info is Glory. Glory is the points you get for winning at PvP... so Glory is LITERALLY a guage of how many wins you have. The things you buy with glory are the rewards you get for winning. And it's quite possible that ArenaNet will be selling glory (they certainly are selling it in their pre-purchase bundles). By all accounts, that is pretty much the definition of "P2W".

The fact that most or even all of the rewards in GW2 are cosmetic, because most of the advancement in the game is horizontal, means that the line has to be very carefully drawn. Sure, the PvP armor is cosmetic...but it's supposed to mean something. It's supposed to provide those players who have achieved a certain number of wins with a way to show pride in their character and let others see. Selling that armor (or the glory that buys the armor) is very much non-cosmetic in terms of its effects on the player base. Now that armor means basically nothing.

This is true of influence as well. Influence can be used for guild perks and buffs in both PvP and PvE....so selling it is literally selling an advantage. Sure, you could claim it's not a BIG advantage, or not a permanent one...but I think that's splitting hairs much too finely for my taste.

Selling skills is just flat out over the line. If that elite they are providing with the pre-purchase is a full-power legit elite skill, then I'm done. I won't be playing. If they do that once, they will do it again, with other exclusive skills in the cash shop which totally unbalance the game. It's an extremely poor precedent to be setting so early.

[mmorpeegee]

For $20 your character can buy:

[Fozzik]

Well, I would make an exception for a thundercats sword.

[mmorpeegee]

And for $50 you get to dual wield them while flying around on a jetpack!

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

The problem is deciding exactly what constitutes P2W in an MMORPG. The genre normally doesn't lend itself to a strict idea of "winning"...and each game is somewhat different in the goals that are available to the player.

To me, "winning" in an MMORPG is about getting the fun AND MEANINGFUL experiences, advancing my character, and obtaining the cool stuff that I desire. If people can shortcut or bypass play, and obtain the cool stuff, just by forking over a few dollars...that's pay to win because it not only provides the "winning" to them without them having to play for it...it also cheapens and devalues everyone's experience and achievements.

The line gets really blurry in a game like GW2, and I'm not entirely sure it isn't on purpose. What I mean is that it seems quite likely that they purposefully designed their game so that literally EVERYTHING in the whole game could be explained away if it were offered in the cash shop.

"Oh, that's just a temporary increase in power, everyone catches up."

"Oh, that can only be used for cosmetic rewards."

"That only provides a little advantage, so it's no big deal."

I mean, think about it. Can you name me one thing in GW2 that couldn't be explained away as fine for the cash shop? Where is the line?

The most obvious example of my problems with the recent info is Glory. Glory is the points you get for winning at PvP... so Glory is LITERALLY a guage of how many wins you have. The things you buy with glory are the rewards you get for winning. And it's quite possible that ArenaNet will be selling glory (they certainly are selling it in their pre-purchase bundles). By all accounts, that is pretty much the definition of "P2W".

The fact that most or even all of the rewards in GW2 are cosmetic, because most of the advancement in the game is horizontal, means that the line has to be very carefully drawn. Sure, the PvP armor is cosmetic...but it's supposed to mean something. It's supposed to provide those players who have achieved a certain number of wins with a way to show pride in their character and let others see. Selling that armor (or the glory that buys the armor) is very much non-cosmetic in terms of its effects on the player base. Now that armor means basically nothing.

This is true of influence as well. Influence can be used for guild perks and buffs in both PvP and PvE....so selling it is literally selling an advantage. Sure, you could claim it's not a BIG advantage, or not a permanent one...but I think that's splitting hairs much too finely for my taste.

Selling skills is just flat out over the line. If that elite they are providing with the pre-purchase is a full-power legit elite skill, then I'm done. I won't be playing. If they do that once, they will do it again, with other exclusive skills in the cash shop which totally unbalance the game. It's an extremely poor precedent to be setting so early.

I have a different definition of Pay to Win. To me, that means either being able to purchase cash shop items that are superior to those available in game, or having the game hold you back to some serious degree to where you need to purchase something like XP potions in order to even attain high level in any kind of reasonable amount of time. Obviously there's different degrees. Another type of cash shop is Pay to Skip which would be selling items that are equivalent to those able to be earned in game. This again has many degrees from really odious to trivial.

I don't believe there's any morality or ethics when it comes to what a company offers, their chief concern is maximizing profits. It's not like there's some ideal of B2P that ArenaNet is betraying. Whatever they do there are going to be people who are happy with it, people who will live with it, and people who won't. Their goal has to be to offer whatever they can that the vast majority of people will at least live with.

While I might prefer them to handle their cash shop a different way, I really can't get too upset about anything they're offering. About the only area I think I would care would be in structured PVP due to its e-sport nature. I don't plan on ever buying anything in the cash shop and I fully expect that my personal enjoyment won't be affected.

I respect your opinion, but you ask where the line is. Their updating of the wiki says they won't offer anything in the shop which is superior to what can be obtained in game. That is probably not a line that has gone too far for me, though it does potentially leave the door open to Pay to Skip. That is why I'm looking back at the GW1 shop. Nothing there bothers me, so I'm giving ArenaNet the benefit of the doubt with GW2 until they show otherwise.

(This post probably isn't as well written or justified with examples as I'd like, it's been a long day and I just wanted to reply before going to bed)

[Fozzik]

I think we're pretty much on the same page, to be honest. Like you said, it's all about degrees...and that's what bothers me about the system the most.

I don't want to constantly be in a situation where I have to re-evaluate and argue and carefully consider whether or not the effects are enough to make me quit. That doesn't in any way seem fun to me. I want to play a game on a level playing field and not have to worry about crap like this.

Here's my issue with even small "boosts" (pay to speed up, pay to skip, whatever) being sold in a MT shop. They create multiple "tiers" of play. You have players who are experiencing a game with mechanics that move at one speed, and then other players who get to experience a different speed. There advancement is quicker, their achievement and acquisition is quicker, and they get to see things sooner and have all the firsts. No matter how much the "slower" players play (not everyone can play 8 hours a day, but some do), they will always be at a disadvantage to the "faster" players...solely because the faster players spent more money.

That is in no way a level playing field, and to me it doesn't really make a difference how much faster or slower the "tiers" are...it's still splitting your player base into the special people and the not-special people, based on how much real life money they are willing to spend. I hate that.

There are so many different things they could sell which would have absolutely no ill effects on game balance or character power or advantage...there's really no reason to sell the P2W stuff. They are cheapening the experience for everyone, and shortening the average player's stay in their game (and the longevity and size of their player base) for what they believe will be greater short-term profits.

Everyone is going to have to draw their own line, and I think I'm getting closer to knowing exactly where my personal tolerance is. If they cross it, I'll just move on. I might provide them with my opinion before I leave, though.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

I think we're pretty much on the same page, to be honest. Like you said, it's all about degrees...and that's what bothers me about the system the most.

I don't want to constantly be in a situation where I have to re-evaluate and argue and carefully consider whether or not the effects are enough to make me quit. That doesn't in any way seem fun to me. I want to play a game on a level playing field and not have to worry about crap like this.

Here's my issue with even small "boosts" (pay to speed up, pay to skip, whatever) being sold in a MT shop. They create multiple "tiers" of play. You have players who are experiencing a game with mechanics that move at one speed, and then other players who get to experience a different speed. There advancement is quicker, their achievement and acquisition is quicker, and they get to see things sooner and have all the firsts. No matter how much the "slower" players play (not everyone can play 8 hours a day, but some do), they will always be at a disadvantage to the "faster" players...solely because the faster players spent more money.

That is in no way a level playing field, and to me it doesn't really make a difference how much faster or slower the "tiers" are...it's still splitting your player base into the special people and the not-special people, based on how much real life money they are willing to spend. I hate that.

There are so many different things they could sell which would have absolutely no ill effects on game balance or character power or advantage...there's really no reason to sell the P2W stuff. They are cheapening the experience for everyone, and shortening the average player's stay in their game (and the longevity and size of their player base) for what they believe will be greater short-term profits.

Everyone is going to have to draw their own line, and I think I'm getting closer to knowing exactly where my personal tolerance is. If they cross it, I'll just move on. I might provide them with my opinion before I leave, though.

I understand what you're concerned about, and I agree that a cash shop separating people into tiers would be something undesireable, but I just don't see that as being where ArenaNet is right now.

A personal banker for 5 days in a game that has teleportation and accessing mail from anywhere in the world (assuming you can mail things to a mule character) seems like a very minor speed increase when it comes to gaining xp.

Giving people a boost to Glory might have some devaluing effect on the armor you get, but it's cosmetic gear for structured PVP where everyone has access to everything. So there won't be an advantage in terms of gameplay.

Influence can be spent to improve guild members' experience or drop rates or provide boosts to WvW PVP, but look at the time it takes to create any of this stuff, it takes days. Players will have easily raced to level cap before any of this would be a factor. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Influence

The elite skill is kind of sketchy, but it's probably PVE only. It's probably weaker compared to other ones as well just like the racial elites are supposed to be. And with the limited skillbar, it's still a tradeoff so they can't use it and Tornado or Lich Form or whatever at the same time. I don't see there being any real advantage.

I definitely agree it's something that should be watched, but I just don't see what they're offering now with the deluxe edition to be anything which is going to unbalance the game. Of course, once I see what it is offered in the cash shop I might feel differently but I'm hoping ArenaNet doesn't drop the ball here (again, based on my feelings about the GW1 shop and how I feel not buying anything didn't impact my enjoyment of the game )

[Fozzik]

Traveling back to town for storage, repair, etc. is supposed to be a money sink. A minor one, sure...but buying that personal banker circumvents that money sink. Now it's not just a convenience, it's actually a monetary AND time advantage. Sure, it's only five days, but the way it's set up, I'm willing to bet it will be available in the cash shop on an ongoing basis. That's concerning. They are willing to circumvent their own systems for cash...and unbalance their game. Again, of course, we're playing the game of degrees...it's only a little bit of imbalance. I don't like that rationale. I only cheated on ONE play out of the whole basketball game...so that's okay, right?

The cosmetic rewards for PvP are the only rewards there are. That's how players are supposed to compare themselves to other players, and where the sense of accomplishment and pride is supposed to come from. There isn't any other, more tangible reward system that provides fixed value...cosmetic is it. And they are selling it. I guess the assumption is that it's all about the leaderboard...but I'm sure a lot of people will feel really let down if there isn't some in-game, tangible way to show off your progress and achievement.

Influence I think is pretty cut and dried. It clearly provides an advantage. Again, saying it's only a small advantage doesn't make it any better. This comes back to my fundamental problem with this whole over-arching issue... EVERYTHING has a rationale. There's literally nothing sacred. It's only a little. It's not TOO much. It really just affects X and not Y. You won't really notice.... and on, and on. It's not that big of a deal if I put my thumb on the scale once in a while...we're all friends, here. Right?

To me, the only logical way selling that elite skill makes sense is if it is usable from level one. I REALLY don't like that at all. It's very clearly an advantage and skews advancement in favor of people who spend more money.

ALL the advancement in the game, in the long run, is horizontal...based around gaining additional skills, traits, achievements, and cosmetic rewards. Therefore, selling those things in GW2 is just like selling higher-tiered raid gear in WoW, or selling epic weapons in EQ. You are short-cutting the central mechanism for the value of advancement and achievement in the game. Saying, "It's only cosmetic" just doesn't cut it as a rationale in the context of this game.

We're going round and round at this point. I've written like 15k words on this subject in the last 24 hours. I think I'll let it sit, and hope to God ArenaNet speaks up soon.

[mmorpeegee]

I draw the line right at the very start. I wouldn't even give them an inch because it's far too easy to get sucked in and before you know it, you've spent 50 extra bucks just keeping up with people and then you spend another 10 or 20 just because it's only a small amount, and by the time you think to yourself, "This is a ridiculous waste of my hard earned cash" you're already down $100. And then you are stuck with the dilemma of whether you should walk away after being down 100 bucks, or should you just spend that extra 10 or 20 to keep ahead of the curve for the next 6 months or so...

I think unless you have plenty of disposable income, I think the safest option is to just give the whole concept a stern middle finger right from day 1.

Obviously pay to win sucks, but even "pay to skip" is no good either. My main experience being EverQuest which wasn't even a PVP game nor really a competitive game... But I was massively motivated to play the game because of my own competitive urges. All my real life friends, and in game game friends, and occasional acquantences etc.... we were all on a similar playing field. We all started the game near the start and were all progresssing at a similar rate. So when I got a piece of Rubicite armor in my 20's and then sold it for a small fortune and used that money to buy all kinds of awesome stuff... it made me somewhat special. People were talking about it, my friends were kinda jealous, and I looked awesome. It made everything so meaningful! But a way I look at these games is that's it's all about time spent in the game. Even skill isn't that important half the time... You could be completely useless but if you have no job and you got a group in Cazic Thule and just clicked buttons randomly, and you spent the entire day there, you would eventually get some Rubicite armor too.

So with "pay to skip" that rubs me the wrong way too. Because whatever you have skipped will leave you time to spend adventuring and getting powerful gear etc... therefore keeping you a step above me, unless I pay the same kind of thing. I'll never go down that route.

I'm still 50/50 in my guessing on whether they will actually do stuff like this or not, but still. My mind is already made up, I wont play if they take that dark route. I just don't have the disposable income to play on those terms, and even when I do have cash to spend, I don't want to blow it on stupid gaming stuff just to keep me ahead of the curve. So yeah, my advice is to stay strong and to just avoid the game if they do that. But don't worry about it too much until they have gone all the way. They will either shun it or embrace it, so we will be able to know and then decide to walk away.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Traveling back to town for storage, repair, etc. is supposed to be a money sink. A minor one, sure...but buying that personal banker circumvents that money sink. Now it's not just a convenience, it's actually a monetary AND time advantage. Sure, it's only five days, but the way it's set up, I'm willing to bet it will be available in the cash shop on an ongoing basis. That's concerning. They are willing to circumvent their own systems for cash...and unbalance their game. Again, of course, we're playing the game of degrees...it's only a little bit of imbalance. I don't like that rationale. I only cheated on ONE play out of the whole basketball game...so that's okay, right?

The cosmetic rewards for PvP are the only rewards there are. That's how players are supposed to compare themselves to other players, and where the sense of accomplishment and pride is supposed to come from. There isn't any other, more tangible reward system that provides fixed value...cosmetic is it. And they are selling it. I guess the assumption is that it's all about the leaderboard...but I'm sure a lot of people will feel really let down if there isn't some in-game, tangible way to show off your progress and achievement.

Influence I think is pretty cut and dried. It clearly provides an advantage. Again, saying it's only a small advantage doesn't make it any better. This comes back to my fundamental problem with this whole over-arching issue... EVERYTHING has a rationale. There's literally nothing sacred. It's only a little. It's not TOO much. It really just affects X and not Y. You won't really notice.... and on, and on. It's not that big of a deal if I put my thumb on the scale once in a while...we're all friends, here. Right?

To me, the only logical way selling that elite skill makes sense is if it is usable from level one. I REALLY don't like that at all. It's very clearly an advantage and skews advancement in favor of people who spend more money.

ALL the advancement in the game, in the long run, is horizontal...based around gaining additional skills, traits, achievements, and cosmetic rewards. Therefore, selling those things in GW2 is just like selling higher-tiered raid gear in WoW, or selling epic weapons in EQ. You are short-cutting the central mechanism for the value of advancement and achievement in the game. Saying, "It's only cosmetic" just doesn't cut it as a rationale in the context of this game.

We're going round and round at this point. I've written like 15k words on this subject in the last 24 hours. I think I'll let it sit, and hope to God ArenaNet speaks up soon.

At the risk of taking this basketball analogy way too far...

I don't look at it like it's allowing cheating. I look at it like GW2 is a gym complex that provides free water but also sells gatorade. Do the people who buy it have some sort of advantage over people who don't? I suppose so. Are they cheating? No.

And every indication is that when it comes to a basketball tournament (structured PVP), it is a 100% level playing field where the only advantages people have are in skill and tactics.

As far as the selling of gatorade, I'm simply not concerned. You're worried that people are going to have extra money that they wouldn't have had without this golem banker. The sad reality is that 3rd party gold sellers exist and can't be stopped. Would you rather the gym get the money or the sketchy guy outside on the corner?

Honestly, I think you're looking at it the wrong way. GW2 is about playing the game to have fun, not about gear and not about the carrot. It really doesn't matter to me what someone else is doing. If the banker does let them have slightly more money, or they level slightly faster, or they end up with the same armor that I do, then what does it matter? The only reason you think it's some kind of unfair race or competition is because you're making it into a competition.

Not that I expect to change your mind. We can stop and agree to disagree. I just wanted to make the basketball analogy.

[Fozzik]

Gatorade makes it an incorrect analogy. Change it to steroids, because what they are selling does provide an advantage, even if small. Which is exactly why steroids are outlawed and considered cheating in pretty much every sport.

Your right...it's supposed to be about just playing and having fun. The problem is that cheapening my experience makes it less meaningful, less valuable, and less fun. I don't enjoy playing games WITH or AGAINST people who pay to have a better, faster or more convenient experience, and that goes for any game.

[mmorpeegee]

Are the people on the official forum talking about this too? Hope everyone isn't just letting it slide..?

[Fozzik]

There's no official forums yet, although they just announced there are going to be official forums. On the GW2Guru forums (where most of the community is right now), it's definitely being discussed. A lot of the diehard fans are taking a stance of just trusting that ArenaNet will do things right...but there are plenty of people who are quite concerned and looking for clarification and specifics. Several other posters have mentioned they will hold off on pre-purchase until details of the shop are available, like me. Others have messaged, emailed, and tweeted ArenaNet asking for info.

There's tons of discussion in multiple threads about the items being offered in the bundles...just about everyone is uncomfortable with at least one of them.

[AsheMan]

I didn't even notice the "elite combat skill" offered in the deluxe version. If you can only attain it from the deluxe/collector's editions then that pretty much steps over the line for me.

If it had been a non-combat pet type thing then I wouldn't care about it too much, but an actual combat skill?

[mmorpeegee]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

There's no official forums yet, although they just announced there are going to be official forums. On the GW2Guru forums (where most of the community is right now), it's definitely being discussed. A lot of the diehard fans are taking a stance of just trusting that ArenaNet will do things right...but there are plenty of people who are quite concerned and looking for clarification and specifics. Several other posters have mentioned they will hold off on pre-purchase until details of the shop are available, like me. Others have messaged, emailed, and tweeted ArenaNet asking for info.

There's tons of discussion in multiple threads about the items being offered in the bundles...just about everyone is uncomfortable with at least one of them.

Well that's good. I'm sure they will just do whatever makes them the most money, so we just have to wait and see whether they decide this will be with major cash shop whorage, or by doing the nice popular thing and making less from the shop but getting more subs. It's down to their big cheeses to decide I suppose, but I'm glad there are people talking about it on that forum, it at least reminds them that the audience isn't entirely a bunch of chumps.

Originally Posted by AsheMan

I didn't even notice the "elite combat skill" offered in the deluxe version. If you can only attain it from the deluxe/collector's editions then that pretty much steps over the line for me.

If it had been a non-combat pet type thing then I wouldn't care about it too much, but an actual combat skill?

That doesn't sound too promising. I hope it's just something fancy but not powerful. I remember in Heroes of Newerth there was a combat skill for people who pre-ordered which let you activate a taunt after you killed someone and it gave you a damage boost for a while. But it was so minor and such a hassle to remember to use it that nobody really cared. But something like that could easily go wrong.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Gatorade makes it an incorrect analogy. Change it to steroids, because what they are selling does provide an advantage, even if small. Which is exactly why steroids are outlawed and considered cheating in pretty much every sport.

Your right...it's supposed to be about just playing and having fun. The problem is that cheapening my experience makes it less meaningful, less valuable, and less fun. I don't enjoy playing games WITH or AGAINST people who pay to have a better, faster or more convenient experience, and that goes for any game.

There's plenty of things that people could buy in the real world which would provide an advantage but not be cheating. Gatorade (if you believe this ad), more expensive sneakers, hiring a personal trainer/coach, building a backyard basketball court. I even have analog stick extenders on my XBOX controller. Hell, pro athletes get LASIK, even when they already have perfect vision.

GW2 will never be completely fair unless ArenaNet is handing out those badass Alienware gaming rigs and Razer Nagas and laying fiber-optics for everyone's internet connection and stopping all 3rd party gold transactions.

Because of things like this, we have to conclude that GW2 is ultimately not truly balanced or fair and never will be. The issue here is really that ArenaNet is trying to also get a piece of the action that other companies are getting.

The thing is though that the one part of the game which actually professes to be an e-sport is as fair as ArenaNet can make it. ArenaNet offers no advantage when it comes to the actual gameplay of structured PVP. That really counts for something to me.

To me the big line in the sand would be selling an item in the shop that is more powerful than you can get in game. That would be true P2W. The rest of the stuff revealed so far really doesn't bother me.

I admire your convictions if this is a dealbreaker for you, but I'll also be sad to not play the game with you if that's what happens.

[perfect]

Originally Posted by ForestWhitakerEye

...To me the big line in the sand would be selling an item in the shop that is more powerful than you can get in game. That would be true P2W. The rest of the stuff revealed so far really doesn't bother me....

That's my line in the sand: If something is in the CS that I can't earn in game. Experience boosters? I can earn XP. Even without XP Boosters, there will be people who level faster than I (much faster) so it's not a new thing to be outleveled. And, besides, levels are mostly meaningless as all content is scaled to your current level (or your level is scaled to the content; the result is the same).

In field bankers? I, personally, have never been, like, "dang, I wish I had access to my bank vault RIGHT NOW!" while out in the field. My spouse has, but that's only once in 6 years of gaming together. Non issue and it doesn't affect me.

I could go on (and will if people push the issue) but none of the DD items are, thus far, game breakers for me. The skill is the only thing close and it takes up an Elite slot so, yes, it will be useful and an advantage for those who purchase the DD up until they get their first, real Elite and then they never look back at that skill. If the skill is so powerful that you'll want to use it over the existing Elite skills, then that is an issue. If it's not so powerful, it just a 'low level' gimmick that gives no long term advantage.

This all goes back to Fozzik's 'you can explain away anything' but it doesn't go towards my rule: Is there an item in the CS that is more powerful than an item that I can earn in game?

Originally Posted by Fozzik

...Your right....

Tsk.