[Oloh]

Below is a model loot policy that I drafted. I am opening it for peer review. Note that this policy is not currently in effect for Lineage 2, as the nature of the game does not lend itself to a loot policy.

Take a look at it and tell me what you think:


Silky Venom Loot Policy


§ 301 - Purpose

(a) The primary purpose of the Policy is to preserve guild harmony. Having an established and non-subjective system lets everyone know what to expect from the guild, and therefore helps to preserve guild harmony.

(b) The secondary purpose of the Policy is to distribute in-game rewards in a manner that is fair and consistent with the amount of time and effort that players have put into Silky Venom. To accomplish this purpose, Silky Venom seeks to reward those that:

(1) spend the time needed to accomplish Silky Venom's goals,
(2) are willing to go to events that do not directly benefit their character, and
(3) are online consistently, regardless of planned events.


(c) The tertiary purpose of the Policy is to make Silky Venom a stronger guild. This purpose is secondary to rewarding individual efforts. There will be times when players are asked to forsake individual rewards for the good of Silky Venom.


(d) The Policy cannot and will not reward all behavior that is beneficial to the guild. Such behavior is recognized and will be rewarded in ways outside of this policy. Specifically, the Policy is not designed to reward:


(1) being a friendly, valued, and necessary guild member,
(2) helping guild members when they need it,
(3) playing characters or classes that are vital to the success of the guild, or
(4) being an officer, leader, tactician, or recruiter for Silky Venom.


(e) As with any objective system, people can manipulate this Policy to accomplish goals that many feel are not in the spirit of the rules. Generally, Silky Venom is willing to accept these irregularities in order to have a consistent and measurable system. However, there are times when behavior rises above mere annoyance to the level of being intolerable. When such instances occur, the guild leader reserves the right to exercise absolute discretion irrespective of this Policy.



§ 302 - Acquiring Points


(a) Characters acquire points. Players do not. The guild leader may create special qualified exceptions to this rule as necessary to accomplish tasks.


(b) There are three ways to acquire points:


(1) Check-in Bonus: A character receives a "check-in bonus" of 1 point if, at the start of a raid, the character is in the presence of the timekeeper.


(2) Standard. For every item that drops during a raid that is claimed by a character, each person at the raid will receive the amount of points spent to claim the item, divided by the number of characters at the raid.


(3) Completion Bonus: A character receives a completion bonus of 1 if such character received the check-in bonus, and stayed until the completion of the raid is called by the timekeeper.


(c) Guests may earn and spend points subject to the discretion of the guild leader.



§ 303 - Spending Points


(a) A character must be in attendance at a raid to spend points on items gained through that raid, unless otherwise approved by the guild leader.


(b) Every item will be assigned a point value by the guild leader. Whenever possible, the cost of these items will be posted in advance.


(c) Every item is available for a claim by any player, unless:


(1) the item is a "special item," (determined solely by the guild leader) that provides an overriding benefit to Silky Venom as a whole when in the hands of one specific individual;


(2) the point leader is not a member of the guild;


(3) the item is a tradable item, and player wanting to claim has negative points.


(d) When an item is available for a claim, the raid leader will announce it to the guild and ask for a private messages to request a claim. The raid leader will then close claim requests, and compare the point values of all people that requested a claim.


(e) The player with the highest point value will receive the item, and the point cost is immediately deducted from the player's pool. Players may make more than one claim per raid.


(f) If two or more players share equal point totals and both wish to claim an item, the item will be awarded to the winner of a random roll between the two or more players.


(g) Once claimed, the guild loses control of the item. A player is free to do with the item what he or she wishes including selling it, destroying it or giving it away.


(h) Players may go into negative point totals, and may even loot while they are negative, provided that there is no one with a higher point total that wishes to claim. However, no player can loot tradable items if they are negative.


(i) Unclaimed items go into a guild vault if they are tradable. Items that are unclaimed and not tradable are destroyed. In no event shall an unclaimed item go to a player that has not claimed the item unless the item is exempt under (j) below.


(j) There may be items that are not subject to this Policy. Such items will be specifically listed as exempt by the guild leader. Any item not exempt is subject to this Policy.



§ 304 - Raids


(a) There are two types of raids:


(1) Scheduled Raids: These raids are always pointed. They are the basic raid for which the system has been devised. Other classes of raids are designed to accommodate special circumstances. These raids are established by the guild leader.


(2) Dynamic Raids: No raid is a dynamic raid unless it has been established as one by the guild leader first. Dynamic raids can take place with or without any prior approval and any officer or leader online. Players will gain points on dynamic raids according to the drops claimed during the course of the raid.



§ 305 - Point Totals


(a) There is no cap for point totals. Points may be gained infinitely, depending on the amount of time a player spends with the Silky Venom.


(b) Once every two months, the gross-points-in will be compared with the gross-points-out. If the gross-points-in exceed the gross-points-out, the gross-points-out will be subtracted from the gross-points-in to arrive at the net-points-in figure. The net points in figure will then be divided by the total number of point holders (be them guild members or otherwise). The result will then be subtracted from every point holder.


(1) This mechanism may be subject to suspension from time to time at the leader's discretion, to accommodate a healthy point total for guild members.


(2) This mechanism can and will drop players into negative points when they would otherwise be positive.

[Raya]

I am not a member of the SV Guild (yet), but I have a number of questions and comments regarding this Model Loot Policy (MLP). I hope it's okay to voice them (I don't know if I would qualify for membership in SV since I have only played Vanguard for 15 minutes, and I am also not a hardcore gamer). Anyhow, here goes -- please disregard if it is not my business.

§ 301 - Purpose
(b) The secondary purpose of the Policy is to distribute in-game rewards in a manner that is fair and consistent with the amount of time and effort that players have put into Silky Venom. To accomplish this purpose, Silky Venom seeks to reward those that:

(1) spend the time needed to accomplish Silky Venom's goals,
(2) are willing to go to events that do not directly benefit their character, and
(3) are online consistently, regardless of planned events.

I think in this one (or somewhere) it should be stated what SV's goals are. Otherwise (1) here is pretty vague. I am thinking of my own EQ Guild, where I often couldn't attend some events (although I always tried to attend guild-planned events). However, I spent hours on maintaining the guild forums, updating the website and membership lists, and corresponding with members for encouragement and keeping in touch. However, I think from information further down on this MLP, such amount of time spent would not be recognized by SV.

(d) The Policy cannot and will not reward all behavior that is beneficial to the guild. Such behavior is recognized and will be rewarded in ways outside of this policy. Specifically, the Policy is not designed to reward:

(1) being a friendly, valued, and necessary guild member,
(2) helping guild members when they need it,
(3) playing characters or classes that are vital to the success of the guild, or
(4) being an officer, leader, tactician, or recruiter for Silky Venom.

I'm pretty sure I understand the reason for this. I was in a guild where one of the leaders of the guild often kept the best stuff for himself. He qualified in all four of the above areas, but it was pretty disheartening to go on raid after raid and be left out at reward time. This was especially discouraging because this "policy" was never announced, and it took a while to actually figure out that was what was going on. Having said all that though, if these are the people who are NOT rewarded, then who is? Is it ONLY point holders as described in later clauses?

§ 302 - Acquiring Points
(b) There are three ways to acquire points:
(2) Standard. For every item that drops during a raid that is claimed by a character, each person at the raid will receive the amount of points spent to claim the item, divided by the number of characters at the raid.

I totally agree with clauses (1) and (3) in this section, having been an assistant to the raid leader (Pat) many many times, I can't say how mind-numbingly awful it is to wait for people who arrive ten minutes after the raid should have started and "try to reach us" if we, by some miracle, were able to start on time. We stop and wait and they die. Or we can't start the raid because not enough people show up. Or...it's downright awful. And for (3) trying to meet the raid objective and people quit because they have gotten what they need and it doesn't matter if others haven't, or they are bored, or there is another raid starting that is more interesting.

However, with (2), I don't quite understand it UNLESS the items to be acquired cost a lot of points. Say there are 50 people on a raid and an item costs 10 points to acquire...the math here doesn't make sense. It would have to cost, say, 100 points to acquire...which then lets the people in the raid each acquire 2 points (is that right?)

§ 303 - Spending Points
(c) Every item is available for a claim by any player, unless:
(3) the item is a tradable item, and player wanting to claim has negative points.
(h) Players may go into negative point totals, and may even loot while they are negative, provided that there is no one with a higher point total that wishes to claim. However, no player can loot tradable items if they are negative.

§ 305 - Point Totals

(a) There is no cap for point totals. Points may be gained infinitely, depending on the amount of time a player spends with the Silky Venom.

(b) Once every two months, the gross-points-in will be compared with the gross-points-out. If the gross-points-in exceed the gross-points-out, the gross-points-out will be subtracted from the gross-points-in to arrive at the net-points-in figure. The net points in figure will then be divided by the total number of point holders (be them guild members or otherwise). The result will then be subtracted from every point holder.

(1) This mechanism may be subject to suspension from time to time at the leader's discretion, to accommodate a healthy point total for guild members.

(2) This mechanism can and will drop players into negative points when they would otherwise be positive.

I guess I don't understand the negative points issue, especially the need for them and why it is beneficial to the guild as per that last clause (2). I have only once played with a guild that operated a point system (although I don't think it was set up as carefully as this has been). The controversy that raged within that guild over instituting the point system eventually ended up destroying the guild. Perhaps that was because it was NOT set up so carefully.

However, the weak points of this one seem to be (a) the guild leader had better be trustworthy and fair -- otherwise the point system is pointless (pardon my pun); and (b) it seems to reward only consistent raid attendees. That's okay, but I have experienced raids where there are people there who always don't follow the raid rules (other than being on time and staying for the whole raid), bicker with the people, cause dissension, get killed by being careless, etc.

In any event, I have to say this is the first time I have seen a loot policy drawn up like a legal document - I would be interested in hearing if this has been implemented before and if it works.

(And yeah, I do hope to join Silky Venom, even though I am often a casual player due to time constraints or health issues.)

[Verileah]

A couple of thoughts if you'll forgive my impertinence .

(a) Characters acquire points. Players do not. The guild leader may create special qualified exceptions to this rule as necessary to accomplish tasks.

Will members of SV be required to declare a main?

Let's say I have three toons; if I have the capabilities, will I be permitted to multi box these three toons and earn points for each?

If I am only able to run one toon at a time, but I have three characters, can I chose which character I will play for a particular event and earn points for that character?

(c) Every item is available for a claim by any player, unless:


(1) the item is a "special item," (determined solely by the guild leader) that provides an overriding benefit to Silky Venom as a whole when in the hands of one specific individual;


(2) the point leader is not a member of the guild;


(3) the item is a tradable item, and player wanting to claim has negative points.

This is just my opinion, but I think this section needs a few more items. If one of the goals of this loot system is to reward activity, I would suggest players that meet a minimum activity level get "first dibs" on items. I think this would help alleviate the issue of a person taking extended breaks while the guild continues to progress, only to return and spend the points they earned before they left when the guild reaches a higher level of progression.

I'd also consider the alt issue again with regard to this policy. Should alts have the same loot rights as mains? I don't have an answer to this one way or another, but it should be clear imo.

Finally, should new recruits have the same rights as active players?

(2) Dynamic Raids: No raid is a dynamic raid unless it has been established as one by the guild leader first. Dynamic raids can take place with or without any prior approval and any officer or leader online. Players will gain points on dynamic raids according to the drops claimed during the course of the raid.

This is a really interesting idea on so many levels! I can see -huge- appeal in this particular rule and I'm so glad you wrote it in here . Definitely keep this in.

Some more general thoughts, not really in response to anything...

I like the idea of using points as a reward for showing up on time and staying the whole raid. However, I also think negative behaviors should result in the loss of points. This is a good thing for hitting people where they live without actually removing them for a first offense. It works, it's simple, and it keeps the crazies in line when you are willing to consistently enforce rules with point removal.

Overall, I think you covered most of your bases with this policy. I think an issue you will run into will be people who are willing to hoard their points indefinitely to spend them later on progression wise. While I believe that it is better for a guild as a whole to be geared according to the level at which they play, people are going to make up their own minds on how best to spend their points I suppose, and I don't know of any loot policy that can control what people chose to spend their points on, heh. Keeping the points circulating is something to be mindful of though, imo.

[Oloh]

Originally Posted by Raya

I am not a member of the SV Guild (yet), but I have a number of questions and comments regarding this Model Loot Policy (MLP). I hope it's okay to voice them (I don't know if I would qualify for membership in SV since I have only played Vanguard for 15 minutes, and I am also not a hardcore gamer). Anyhow, here goes -- please disregard if it is not my business.

I posted the loot policy simply to have it vetted for questions like this. At this time there is only one member of Silky Venom, and that's me. So, anyone is free to contribute and is free to question, etc. I have tried will over a dozen loot policies, and am terribly familar with the concerns. I really just wanted to hear a wide array of perspectives...casual, role-player, and anyone else. The system, however, is tailored to be used by a hard core "raiding" guild ala the guilds of EverQuest.

Originally Posted by Raya

I think in this one (or somewhere) it should be stated what SV's goals are. Otherwise (1) here is pretty vague. I am thinking of my own EQ Guild, where I often couldn't attend some events (although I always tried to attend guild-planned events). However, I spent hours on maintaining the guild forums, updating the website and membership lists, and corresponding with members for encouragement and keeping in touch. However, I think from information further down on this MLP, such amount of time spent would not be recognized by SV.

The numbering on the Policy starts at 301 Being a lawyer, I love numbered provisions. This Policy is actually part of a handbook, with various other policies regarding recruitment, leadership, twinking, etc. You are correct in that none of the none gaming time would be recognized officially by the loot policy. Meaning, if you spent 1000000 hours tweaking the website, you would not recieve a single piece of loot for it. Silky Venom simply does not reward such "out of game" behavior in game. Likewise, the time that I spend making, tweaking and administering policies is not rewarded in game, in any manner.

Originally Posted by Raya

I'm pretty sure I understand the reason for this. I was in a guild where one of the leaders of the guild often kept the best stuff for himself. He qualified in all four of the above areas, but it was pretty disheartening to go on raid after raid and be left out at reward time. This was especially discouraging because this "policy" was never announced, and it took a while to actually figure out that was what was going on. Having said all that though, if these are the people who are NOT rewarded, then who is? Is it ONLY point holders as described in later clauses?

The point system is a very easy way to quantify valuable participation. Silky Venom will be centered around "doing" things in game. The goal is to have people that play a lot. Most item centric MMOGs operate the same way. Level up to get gear, Gear up to do bigger baddy meanies. Do bigger badder meanies for the best stuff in the game. It is best to have 50 players all sharing in the same loot pools, because the loot is concentrated on players that actually play. If you have a guy show up for 50% of the raids, gear in his hands is less valuable than gear in the guys hands who shows up for 100% of the raids. This loot policy is meant to be a quick and dirty way to ensure the folks that will help the clan get the loot, and so the members know exactly what must be done to get the loot.

Originally Posted by Raya

I totally agree with clauses (1) and (3) in this section, having been an assistant to the raid leader (Pat) many many times, I can't say how mind-numbingly awful it is to wait for people who arrive ten minutes after the raid should have started and "try to reach us" if we, by some miracle, were able to start on time. We stop and wait and they die. Or we can't start the raid because not enough people show up. Or...it's downright awful. And for (3) trying to meet the raid objective and people quit because they have gotten what they need and it doesn't matter if others haven't, or they are bored, or there is another raid starting that is more interesting.

Pursuant to other policies (which will be published later), people that arrive late will not recieve any help in the event they cannot get to the raid. If you die in western wastes getting to NToV, you are on your own. If you whine about it in guildchat, you will essentially be called retarded and told to log. Its harsh, but its effective.

Originally Posted by Raya

However, with (2), I don't quite understand it UNLESS the items to be acquired cost a lot of points. Say there are 50 people on a raid and an item costs 10 points to acquire...the math here doesn't make sense. It would have to cost, say, 100 points to acquire...which then lets the people in the raid each acquire 2 points (is that right?)

It doesnt matter what items cost really. What matters is that everyone gets credit for you getting your item. Using your example, lets say there are 50 players in a raid with 10 points each. An item drops and its worth 10 points. Each player will get .2 (10/50) points. 49 of the players will then have 10.2 points, while one player will have 0. That player will not be able to loot again until all others do (unless some want to save points, etc). The system is based on relativity, and not on absolute values. Your point total does not mean anything in isolation, it only has meaning when you compare your points to everyone else.

Originally Posted by Raya

I guess I don't understand the negative points issue, especially the need for them and why it is beneficial to the guild as per that last clause (2). I have only once played with a guild that operated a point system (although I don't think it was set up as carefully as this has been). The controversy that raged within that guild over instituting the point system eventually ended up destroying the guild. Perhaps that was because it was NOT set up so carefully.

Because the system is based on relativity, there is no distinction between positive and negative points. We can start everyone at 1,000,000 points, and it has no effect on the system, and would mean that everyone has positive points. The negative point rule for tradeable items is a special case based on my experience. It is fairly common for members to loot "tradeable" items to sell. The guild is not around to fund your character. It is around to equip your character. By its very nature, a player with negative points has recieved more from the guild, than he or she has given. In that instance, the guild is not willing to tolerate such a player from profiting personally on the guild. This is particularly true when a player has a huge number of negative points, and has determined that he will never get loot for his charater through the point system, so instead uses the system to get items to sell. Others dont bid on such items b/c they are still "in the running" for the real good loot. Thus, the guy that deserves it the least, is getting the most. So, to prevent that (and to operate as a "tax" on the players to keep the guild funded), the guild will loot any tradeable items that drop to the negative players. The items will be sold by the guild, and the profits will be spent on the guild (spell components, guild housing fees, whatever).

Originally Posted by Raya

However, the weak points of this one seem to be (a) the guild leader had better be trustworthy and fair -- otherwise the point system is pointless (pardon my pun); and (b) it seems to reward only consistent raid attendees. That's okay, but I have experienced raids where there are people there who always don't follow the raid rules (other than being on time and staying for the whole raid), bicker with the people, cause dissension, get killed by being careless, etc.

The guild leader should have little discretion in the system. It is stated that the guild leader has a veto over certain claims, for a very limited purpose. The whole point of the system is to remove guild leadership from making judgment calls. This system sacrifices efficiency for fairness, in fact. The best system from an effeciency standpoint would be to give all loot to the player that logs in every raid, and then trickle down from there. These systems, often called "leader defined" are usually used early to "gear up" a new guilds key members so that you can start doing bigger baddies.

The people that you describe in the second part of the message will not be a member of Silky Venom...at least not for long. Idiocy will not be tolerated at all. To be honest, even innocent mistakes will not be tolerated very often.

Originally Posted by Raya

In any event, I have to say this is the first time I have seen a loot policy drawn up like a legal document - I would be interested in hearing if this has been implemented before and if it works.

I drew up a varient of this system around 2001 and to my knowledge it is still being used, with modifications, by that guild. The major change from that one was that points originally came in on an hourly basis (every hour raiding, 1 point). This created an additional level of balancing. I was a member of a guild with a "relative" system and it worked really well, so I modified my original plan to incorporate this method. We will see how it does

Originally Posted by Raya

(And yeah, I do hope to join Silky Venom, even though I am often a casual player due to time constraints or health issues.)

I am a pretty mean leader. You would probably hate me, but we will certainly find out, heh.

[Oloh]

Originally Posted by Verileah

A couple of thoughts if you'll forgive my impertinence .

Will members of SV be required to declare a main?

Let's say I have three toons; if I have the capabilities, will I be permitted to multi box these three toons and earn points for each?

If I am only able to run one toon at a time, but I have three characters, can I chose which character I will play for a particular event and earn points for that character?

Spoken like a guy that has been in point systems before. This is one of the biggest issues with these systems. Admittedly, I go back and forth. My current thinking is that Characters get loot. If you can box 3 characters, and do it effectively..each should be a member and each should recieve loot. That player has contributed 3x more than other players to the power of the guild. Now, there is a huge IF. The membership policy, which hasnt been posted, limits membership requirements. If you play three characters, those characters must qualify for membership, so must meet the requirements and must be valuable to the guild. My hope is that the game makes it hard for one player to play multiple characters effectively.

At any rate, my current view is you get points for all members you bring to the raid. What qualifies as a member is the main issue.

Note: This whole topic is easier when your talking about a guy with a ranger, druid and a paladin. It gets a lot tougher when he plays 3 clerics and you cant do a raid without all three of them. The goal is to not have the guild in those situations and to not have a reason to "guild" alts. When you start asking alts to come, you start to stumble down a tricky slop.

Originally Posted by Verileah

This is just my opinion, but I think this section needs a few more items. If one of the goals of this loot system is to reward activity, I would suggest players that meet a minimum activity level get "first dibs" on items. I think this would help alleviate the issue of a person taking extended breaks while the guild continues to progress, only to return and spend the points they earned before they left when the guild reaches a higher level of progression.

There is a completely seperate attendance policy. Simply put, you need to average 50% raid attendence on a rolling basis to remain guilded at all. Higher attendence is required to be a full member. Silky Venom is for players who treat thier guild like a team. I never skipped practice, and I dont expect the members to skip raids. The guild will raid 5 evenings a week.

Originally Posted by Verileah

I'd also consider the alt issue again with regard to this policy. Should alts have the same loot rights as mains? I don't have an answer to this one way or another, but it should be clear imo.

Finally, should new recruits have the same rights as active players?

The guild loses control of the item when claimed at this time. So, if a player loots an item and gives it to an alt, so be it. If it happens consistantly, that player will no longer be a member, as his dedication is clearly not to the guild.

Originally Posted by Verileah

This is a really interesting idea on so many levels! I can see -huge- appeal in this particular rule and I'm so glad you wrote it in here . Definitely keep this in.

That rule is affectionally known as the "Lodi Rule." If you dont get it, you didnt play EQ much during velious 8).

Originally Posted by Verileah

Some more general thoughts, not really in response to anything...

I like the idea of using points as a reward for showing up on time and staying the whole raid. However, I also think negative behaviors should result in the loss of points. This is a good thing for hitting people where they live without actually removing them for a first offense. It works, it's simple, and it keeps the crazies in line when you are willing to consistently enforce rules with point removal.

Point fines are a key to other policies, including attendence policies that you mentioned above.

Originally Posted by Verileah

Overall, I think you covered most of your bases with this policy. I think an issue you will run into will be people who are willing to hoard their points indefinitely to spend them later on progression wise. While I believe that it is better for a guild as a whole to be geared according to the level at which they play, people are going to make up their own minds on how best to spend their points I suppose, and I don't know of any loot policy that can control what people chose to spend their points on, heh. Keeping the points circulating is something to be mindful of though, imo.

Yeah, that is the pull really. But point hoarders generally just save up a "bank" to be higher than others of their class, and then spend normally. So, its a temporary problem for the most part, and we intend to be a permanent guild, heh.

[Fozzik]

Originally Posted by Oloh

Spoken like a guy...

I would certainly hope not... unless she's been keeping something secret all this time. Our kid is pretty good proof of her being famale, though.

And you're right. She's the hardcore raider in the family.

[Raya]

Originally Posted by Oloh

I am a pretty mean leader. You would probably hate me, but we will certainly find out, heh.

I'd just as soon not hate you - any chance you'll be starting a Silky Venom subsidiary family guild?

[Lyrral]

Okies, just commenting on a point system versus a reward based system.

Honestly, point systems reward people who aren't there 100%. And it gives items to characters who may or may not benefit the most from them.

While DKP does work, I don't think it works to the best. A system where items are rewared, based upon how it will best serve the guild overall breeds far less resentment overall. Yes, officers and the leader have to deal with the complaints, but come on, nothing is more frustrating than going through a raid, having the item drop that best serves your class in particular and seeing some numnut get it just because they have the points.

I've seen more people sit by the sidelines and earn afk DKP. Yet they earn the same points as the person who is pulling for the raid. (Stressful job.)

Scenario:

Amy and Bob are part of a guild that uses a point system. Amy shows up for every raid, takes on added responsibilities, and has slowly organized the healers to create a cohesive unit. Bob, showes up for every raid, but takes a passive role. They both have the same amount of points. An item drops. It would serve Amy far better than Bob, but due to the point system, Bob is eligible. Because they have the same number of points, they roll and Bob wins it.

Now, let's take Amy and Bob and put them in a guild that uses an awarded system. There are two ways to do this, the first is to take tells for items, the second is to make it 100% leaderships' decision. I prefer the latter, but then I was always able to maintain a snapshot of items on my guild members and knew what would serve the guild better. Eventually members realized that just being there wasn't enough, they had to truly want to be there for the guild, not want the guild there for them. That being said, I also had a strict rule, you asked for one item, you lost out on loot for a week. It's hard, being the bad guy, but when people start seeing a guild come together and form into a cohesive unit that is strong and capable of doing amazing things, they start realizing the benefits of an awarded system. That's not saying that attendance isn't tracked. It is, it's just done quietly.

Now, as for the being present at the raid to get the item... I would take it one step further. You need to be at the raid prior as well. Why? Because the person who only shows up to the events that will benefit them, and not to all of them, shouldn't get the tangible rewards.

Loot is dicey. While subjective isn't always good as far as keeping leadership sane, they are the ones who know what will benefit the guild and they are the ones who know that the instrument mod item really should go to a bard before the mage, despite the mana bonus on the item.

What it comes down to? Just because a character can use an item, doesn't mean they should. And just because a character has the points to get an item, doesn't mean they should. Yes, it means that someone will get shafted, and yes they will whine to the officers/Leader, but that's when it gets fun.

Just my thoughts on loot...





Lyrral

[Oloh]

I agree with pretty much everything you said Lyrral, and that is exactly why I wrote the folowing:

(d) The Policy cannot and will not reward all behavior that is beneficial to the guild. Such behavior is recognized and will be rewarded in ways outside of this policy. Specifically, the Policy is not designed to reward:

(1) being a friendly, valued, and necessary guild member,
(2) helping guild members when they need it,
(3) playing characters or classes that are vital to the success of the guild, or
(4) being an officer, leader, tactician, or recruiter for Silky Venom.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I think the best system is leader defined, when you have a leader that is not a shithead. It gears the guild up the fastest and allows access to higher end content sooner.

Basically, in games to date, the best way to advance is to gear up the "main tank." He should get pretty much every marginal upgrade. In his hands, it is far more beneficial than anyone elses...period.

That being said, everyone that plays has their own agenda, and should reap rewards that derive from their attendance. So what if the paladin doesnt provide the exact same benefit that the warrior does from a BP. He has put in his due, and deserves to be appreciated. A little "soft"? Yes. But I think it is something that is human nature and should be provided for in a system.

Finally, the way you handle the numb nuts problem is simple. There will not be any numb nuts in Silky Venom because I will personally remove them.

So, while I agree with your post in spirit and in practice, I think the individual must be recoginized in some signifigant manner...and DKP does this in a manner that is fair.

I love to discuss this type of thing though, very good post.

[Orlun]

On the surface, the Oloh system looks fine. I'm with you Oloh in thinking a leader defined award system is best but having a more formalized and discriminate system is logical.

I prefer gaming with like minded folks who set the betterment of the guild over personal gain and so, I haven't issues with most loot decisions as long as the leader is somewhat fair about it. I've always felt that its worth quite a bit to have a benevolant dictator make all the tough decisions and act as the final word in all guild matters. It removes so much diplomatic haggling and wasted time between guild members.

I guess I make the perfect underling or bully sargent.

[Lyrral]

Originally Posted by Oloh

I agree with pretty much everything you said Lyrral, and that is exactly why I wrote the folowing:

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At the risk of sounding arrogant, I think the best system is leader defined, when you have a leader that is not a shithead. It gears the guild up the fastest and allows access to higher end content sooner.

No, I totally agree.

But then in EQ when I was leading a guild, I got the shaft more times than not, just because I wasn't main tank. I might have been the leader and led the raids, but there wasn't much in the way of gear that I needed to be a success. (Once GoD and OoW came out that changed, and I needed the HP and AC in order to pull effectively, not to mention the FT items.) I was able to gear up my tanks and clerics first, namely because it was my decision.

The Guild I went to as a member followed a similar approach, except they took tells on items. The problem with this is that one person will send tells on every item, regardless if they can really use it or not. Equipment profiles have got to be kept up to date and the loot officer has got to be extremely organized. But it does work.

I still want to know how the AFK DKP'ers will be handled? The people who show p at raids, but spend most of their time on autofollow and running off to do things? Don't they earn points just by being there?

Is there a way to award points based upon quality?



Lyrral

[Oloh]

Originally Posted by Lyrral

I still want to know how the AFK DKP'ers will be handled? The people who show p at raids, but spend most of their time on autofollow and running off to do things? Don't they earn points just by being there?

Is there a way to award points based upon quality?

The way that I handled it in the past was with DPS parsers. Wizard 1 is doing 100k of damage a fight, Wizard 2 is doing 30k of damage a fight, Wizard 3 is doing 0.

/tell Wizard_2 "your dps is low, talk with Wizard 1 on how to improve it."

/tell Wizard_3 "hey dipshit, you ever go afk on a raid unannounced again, and you will be LFG in LDoN to upgrade your gear."

Worked pretty well 8).


Bottom line is that you have to be selective as to who you recruit (which admittedly requires disclipline and a top tier guild). We dont want the type of players that would consistantly go AFK on raids in the guild, so the system doesn't need to be tailored to prevent them...they simply wont be with us.

I am a firm believer that in MMOGs, the best "quality" of player is one that plays a lot.

[midway]

im not a super hardcore gamer because i am a college student.. what are my chances of being in a guild like this?

[DarQueNess]

One question about the loot policy, how are you going to approach the crafting, harvesting and diplomacy spheres under this table? Say you have a hard-core crafter or harvestor and a piece of gear oriented towards that end drops, someone who spends their time crafting for the guild wont be in as many raids as a hard-core raider would be and the raider would most likely sell that gear, whereas the crafter would use it to further the guild on the other end of the spectrum. With this game bringing a new approach to MMO gaming you might need to tweak the system to include the other three spheres, that way you can appeal to others that give as much effort as raiders.

[Oloh]

Originally Posted by DarQueNess

With this game bringing a new approach to MMO gaming you might need to tweak the system to include the other three spheres, that way you can appeal to others that give as much effort as raiders.

I agree 100%. Only time till tell if intergration of the three spheres under one guild is possible. If it is, I supposed this system will have to adapt. If it isn't possible, then we will be an adventuring sphere guild.

Dont forget, because each player is all three classes...there are no "crafters" or "diplomats" really, there are just players, and all players will be expected to keep up and attend raids...whether that raid is a crafting raid, or a diplomatic raid or an adventuring raid.

[Oloh]

Originally Posted by midway

im not a super hardcore gamer because i am a college student.. what are my chances of being in a guild like this?

College is the best time to play! Typically the guild will be centered around a dedicated adults' timeframe, with raids happening each evening. The time requirements will be such that an adult will have to make it a priority to be involved, but will not have to exclude kids, family and saturday movies to be valuable.

So the short answer is, yes, you will probably be fine if you are dedicated. Its not a guild for 12 hours a day people...its a guild for 4 hours a day, but every day, and late at night.

[DarQueNess]

Originally Posted by Oloh

Dont forget, because each player is all three classes...there are no "crafters" or "diplomats" really, there are just players, and all players will be expected to keep up and attend raids...whether that raid is a crafting raid, or a diplomatic raid or an adventuring raid.

Makes sense, so in essence you will look at all 3 spheres as possible raid situations at any given time? The reason I am asking is because I have read (most)of your other posts and am liking the thought process behind what you are planning.

[Spase]

Hi Oloh!
Having never been in a real hardcore guild, I have always been of the opinion that leader distributed loot would actually be the best way for a guild to get the power to do the most on the high end. That being said, I was a founding officer in a slightly more family oriented guild that was fairly raid oriented. We also used a DKP system which had some similarities to what you have here, and it worked very well. The main difference I see is that we did not give a value to drops, we simply bid on them ala ebay, with the allowance of 0 bids but no possibility of going under 0 points(there was actually a pretty stiff penalty for bidding more than you had). This system worked very well for us, and was probably less record keeping than what you are looking at.

The only real issue that I have with what I see in your outline is: I feel strongly that anyone who attends a guild raid should get guild DKP points. This really encourages friends of the guild to come and participate in your guilds activities, which can enable the guild to do more things. People usually dislike going on a raid with a guild that they are not a member of because they know they will generally never get anything from these raids. I definately understand that the guild has to come first - that really goes without saying - but if a guildmates good friend actually has more points than someone else in the guild, then they are probably a benefit to the guild, and rewarding them will still help the guild.

[Eclipse]

Basically, Spase the issue of friends raiding is ever-present, but look at it a different way.
The guild would be attempting to mold themselves completely self-sustaining. This means that eventually (I would imagine, Oloh, correct me if I am wrong) the guild would have enough core players to do all content without asking for outside help.

As for when players outside the guild come when invited: I would imagine the guild would be inviting outside players to raid with them as one of the first steps of seeing if that player is someone they would want in their guild. Therefore, think of it as a volunteer with a company who doesn't get paid, but has a shot at a great job opportunity.

In the guild I was in, we were labelled elitist....by all the people who weren't invited to our guild. Did we care? hehehe

At no time ever, should a non guild member have priority over a member on loot. And when the loot is administered via GL, there's no probs. I also believe that alts should never have priority on mains. Nothing worse than doing 5 hours of raiding and the piece you want really bad drops and someone grabs it up for twinking! haha

In my honest opinion, the better system is the one that may not be fair...but works for the optimum progression of the guild in general.

/wave

-Eclipse

[Eclipse]

As for my own post:

I love the way you've set this out...and would love to see that handbook!! j/k
I'll be taking business law, so it's fun to see it in a game standpoint.

OK, the multi-boxing phenom: I hope above all hope that it is nigh impossible to multi-box. My reasoning is simple. One player focusing all his/her attention on one character = 100% of a character. One player focusing his/her time on multiple characters sacrifices efficiency. And in my opinion: quality >>>>>>>>>> quantity. There are players out there who can multi-box with fantastic skill, but that wouldn't be 100%...maybe 85-95% max per box. <--- Until someone proves me wrong. I sincerely hope it is not encouraged in guild, and again hope that VG sees it and addresses it by making combat too difficult to multi-box.

Secondly,
303 (g) : "Once claimed, the guild loses rights over loot." [paraphrased]
You stated that what players do with the loot is up to them, but after enough times where they use it to twink, or destroy or sell...it is obvious they are not there to benefit the guild.
At what point would you decide enough is enough? And at what point does it no longer make sense to allow players to do whatever they want with loot? I can honestly say, that I will never twink an alt with gear from a raid. EVER. I have very strong feelings against this, and would never recieve loot for my alt over someone else's main. Only time this should even be considered by members is if the item would be destroyed if not looted.
You also stated in response to Lyrral, that while the system is somewhat, soft(?) it was more fair than efficient. The players are rewarded for attending...this system would be instead of a system that awards gear as per Guild Leader's discretion. You seem to be trying to get away from making all of the decisions yourself...and I agree. But going back to 303(g), this allows for more leeway than intended imo. I would argue that even after an item is claimed it still belongs to the guild...because the player who looted it, also "belongs to the guild". And it is very important they use said item to benefit the guild, or it is very clear why they are there.

I get very angry with individuals who whine and bitch(can i say that? lol) about gear. Quite simply, do not think of it as each individual gearing themselves up, but the guild as a whole is slowly gearing up.

I hope ya don't mind me being quite blunt about this.

I would support a system like this policy you have shown, even after having stated possible concerns, because no system will be perfect. I would also support an idea that for the first little while it would make sense that the guild leader gear up the key individuals first to strengthen the core to allow for raids. Then after a short implementation of that, switching to this policy. Whether that is a possibility or not, it might work out for the best. Fair is not always strongest. But in the long run, fair is often what keeps players playing for years.

Also, just wanted to note, that it seems in Vanguard that the days of having one MT to gear up are over. It seems more likely now that all tanks or at least most of them would need to be geared up to their full extent for the guild to progress. And it waits to be seen if all tanks can mitigate just as effectively, or if the warrior will still reign supreme.

Also, one more question:
Will there be any sort of priority on items per class? This is mainly for casters, healers and DPS casters. Gear that would mostly benefit a healer being outbid by arcane casters, or vice versa. Or a tank picking up a light melees type weapon, etc there are many areas where this comes into play. Will there be any kind of "Archetype Priority" on raid gear?

[edit] also, could someone explain to a non-Velious player, what a dynamic raid would entail exactly? Does this mainly mean spontaneous raids, or live event raids?

Thanks!


-Eclipse