Fozzik's Recommendations

Strokke · 01-29-2006, 07:30 PM

Just wanted to say that the updating makes this an awesome feature. When I am forced to upgrade comps for the release of Vanguard I will definitely be referencing your lists. Keep up the good work

Fozzik · 01-29-2006, 08:28 PM

Thanks! I'd love to hear if you have any comments, suggestions, questions, etc. And when you do upgrade, let us know how it goes.

Kullall · 02-03-2006, 09:21 AM

I gotta agree, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this feature even though I'm not planning on upgrading until just before Vanguard is released. I may tweak it here and there to be able to afford a monthly payment on a 24" Dell LCD though...

rabb1t · 02-03-2006, 08:18 PM

As requested...

The only thing I see that makes me hesitate in the recommendations is the $1k case/PSU. I asked Evga about power use with the 7 series and was told that as long as there were 15 or higher amps on the v12 line I'd be fine. From the looks of that PSU you have 14 on one 'rail' I guess it is and 15 on the other. Not knowing exactly how power use works, that seems like it would be pushing min specs for current GPU power needs. Thus, I'd be a little worried about the new DX10 enabled cards we should be seeing by the end of the year.

Traldan · 02-03-2006, 09:07 PM

EDIT: nevermind lol...

I'll post critiques if I find em, if you don't mind.

One thing, the Antec PSU you recommend in the 2000 dollar system may be ok, but dual 12v rails could be an issue (not enough ampage on the rails, the X1900XT requires a ton). The OCZ Powerstream (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817711002) and the Sparkle FSP550 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817103517) are both very nice PSUs...I'm using the second one now with my X1900XT and assorted other power-hungry components, and it's fine. Many people are reporting the OCZ Powerstream being similarly excellent at handling this monster of a card.

Fozzik · 02-03-2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabb1t

As requested...

The only thing I see that makes me hesitate in the recommendations is the $1k case/PSU. I asked Evga about power use with the 7 series and was told that as long as there were 15 or higher amps on the v12 line I'd be fine. From the looks of that PSU you have 14 on one 'rail' I guess it is and 15 on the other. Not knowing exactly how power use works, that seems like it would be pushing min specs for current GPU power needs. Thus, I'd be a little worried about the new DX10 enabled cards we should be seeing by the end of the year.

It is rather close, and I usually like to go overkill on power supplies when I can. Fitting everything into $1000 is tough, though...and dropping just a few dollars in the video card department means a rather large loss in performance (not sure where else I could pull money from to get a higher-priced PSU. I'll look at it carefully, but everything is very balanced right now and I'd hate to skimp on something. From everything I've read, that PSU should work fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traldan

One thing, the Antec PSU you recommend in the 2000 dollar system may be ok, but dual 12v rails could be an issue (not enough ampage on the rails, the X1900XT requires a ton). The OCZ Powerstream (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817711002) and the Sparkle FSP550 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817103517) are both very nice PSUs...I'm using the second one now with my X1900XT and assorted other power-hungry components, and it's fine. Many people are reporting the OCZ Powerstream being similarly excellent at handling this monster of a card.

I'll take a careful look at it, and see exactly what ATI is requiring/recommending. As far as I know, the Antec 550w should have plenty of juice for any current single card. Two of them in crossfire definitely could be an issue... hm. I've got some extra money under the cap in that system too, I believe. Right now Crossfire isn't really on the horizon, at least until somebody can build a decent mobo to support it, but still something to consider.

OCZ and Sparkle do make some good PSUs... I haven't always been happy with Sparkle in the past but I'll take a look in general at the power supplies in all three systems. They seem to be the sticking point.

Fozzik · 02-04-2006, 12:39 AM

Checking ATI's recommendations - They call for a minimum 450W power supply, with 30A on the +12VDC rail. This is very much like the SLI recommendations, and as with SLI, power supplies with dual +12V rails seem to be treated as if they were a single rail. so, two 15A rails is treated the same way as a single 30A rail. Whether it's like this with ATI or not is difficult to say, they aren't as clear with their requirements.

I don't claim to understand power supplies all that well, but I believe the separate rails is just a way of isolating the processor from all the other components using +12V, so the CPU gets the cleanest power possible. I think the Amps drawn can shift between rails depending on load (although I'm basically talking out of my butt based on what I've heard and the way SLI certification works).

Here's the power supply everyone should get -
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/produc...php?show=TC1KW

Yes, that's 1 Kilowatt. Along with kicking the crap out of any of your friend's power supplies, this one has enough power for your flux capacitor so your desk can travel through time.

This has all been a joke (well, the last couple paragraphs anyway, and I'm still checking out various options.

rabb1t · 02-04-2006, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Fitting everything into $1000 is tough, though...and dropping just a few dollars ... not sure where else I could pull money from

I'd say drop ‘em to 1 gig. Being already in an entry-level system they won't be pushing the envelope enough to really need 2-gig. In a year when more stuff would use it, sure, but right now, nah. I'd say better to get them in 'better shape' with the PSU since it is upgraded far less often than anything else.

I'd trust someone who is going with an entry-level system to be more capable at installing more ram later than swapping PSUs.

Quote:

Here's the power supply everyone should get -
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/produc...php?show=TC1KW

Good god. hehehehehe

Lord_Vyper · 02-04-2006, 03:20 AM

I actually got one of those...

No, not for a home system, for a custom built SAN box at work.

Fozzik · 02-04-2006, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabb1t

I'd say drop ‘em to 1 gig. Being already in an entry-level system they won't be pushing the envelope enough to really need 2-gig. In a year when more stuff would use it, sure, but right now, nah. I'd say better to get them in 'better shape' with the PSU since it is upgraded far less often than anything else.

I'd trust someone who is going with an entry-level system to be more capable at installing more ram later than swapping PSUs.

*sigh*

You're probably right. I was trying to avoid that, for some good reasons... especially since getting 2x512MB sticks really limits upgrade potential. I'll have to think about it some more.

rabb1t · 02-04-2006, 03:27 PM

You have to remember the motivation, personality types, and socio-economic status of those who go with entry level systems. They are more commonly the type to buy something mid-range every 3 years and are less likely to upgrade or be concerned that they don't have amazing performance.

I could be wrong, but I don't see them as 'needing' 2 gig until around 2007 or 2008 because they just won't be pushing the resolution settings to really need it. As to load times, well 2 gig helps, but not enough to warrant the increase on a low cost build.

I'd actually be surprised if someone on an entry level system today purchased Vista much before late '07 due to its cost.

Fozzik · 02-04-2006, 04:59 PM

Well, if they don't generally upgrade for 2-3 years (which I would agree with), and they are going to need 2Gig in the next 1-2 years...

*breaks out his calculator*

I'm just teasing. Truly, I think even in a lower-end gaming machine, 2GB of RAM will definitely be useful within the lifespan... in other words before that person wants to upgrade again.

I agree that resolution and load times might not be quite as big a deal to someone who buys a $1000 machine...but honestly, I think a lot of people buy cheaper machines not because they don't care about performance, but because they don't have all that much money.

I'm certainly not someone who can spend $4k a year on computers (my wife's a gamer too), so I can completely relate with someone who wants the absolute best they can possibly get, the most future-proof, etc... without spending too much.

The RAM is going to have to stay, there are other reasons besides just the general ones...and I just think it's the best idea. I'll take a look at how else I can move things around. The situation might actually resolve itself before too long... if we get some more/better mid-range choices from Nvidia and ATI. Something a little cheaper than the 7800GT, but with similar performance, would be awsome. If nothing else, the 7800GT will probably be dropping in price in another month or so.

Just as a totally unrelated note, I'm surfing the boards right now on a high-def projection system. The screen is about 8 feet wide, and I'm typing on a really nice bluetooth keyboard. Anyway...not mine...but I wish it was.

Dillgaar · 02-04-2006, 05:20 PM

where ya hooked up with that gear Fozz?

Fozzik · 02-04-2006, 05:39 PM

Work, sadly. All we use it for is meetings and things.

Lord_Vyper · 02-04-2006, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Work, sadly. All we use it for is meetings and things.

Hehe, I did a similar system for my work a while back.
Spent the first couple days after it had been installed playing killer CS:S.

Fozzik · 02-04-2006, 06:58 PM

All right, what does everyone think about this for the $1k system... it's going to be over the budget by about $20, but I think that will fix itself before too long.

I've had pretty good luck with Enermax power supplies in business type systems, and I've read good things. This power supply has plenty of juice on a single +12V rail, and the price is right.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817103464

Along with that, I was thinking this case. I've actually played with it in person, and it's really nice.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119068

Nubb · 02-04-2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fozzik

All right, what does everyone think about this for the $1k system...[snip]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817103464

Yeah looks like a good pick on the PSU. I couldn't find a comparible PSU with that wattage/amperage at that price.

However, I recommend a different vendor (again). $6 cheaper ($11 actually, as there's a $5 instant rebate), plus save $7 on shipping. So you save $18 then you're only $2 over budget. :)
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...uctCode=270301
(I realize you don't take shipping into consideration on budgeting)

I didn't look at cases.

Fozzik · 02-04-2006, 07:38 PM

Actually, I don't take vendor into consideration either, except just for an example's sake.

As I say in the articles, I just post Newegg prices and links because their site is (in my mind) by far the easiest to navigate and they have pretty much the best selection anywhere.

I would always encourage everyone to look around for solid vendors that might provide a better deal, although I generally think getting everything from a single vendor (if possible) is a good idea.

Things can get really crazy if you are trying to get parts from three different companies and trying to RMA to a fourth. It's nice to deal with one...especially one that has a good reputation for customer service.

I know Newegg isn't always the cheapest (in fact they probably never are), but I trust them because I've used them more times than I can count, and my experiences have always been good. Where other people buy components from is entirely up to them.

Lord_Vyper · 02-04-2006, 07:53 PM

Nice PSU choice.
33amps on the 12v rail , 1 PCIe Cable, 2 SATA.
Should be plenty to handle whatever someone wants to throw at it.
Oh, bonus for the fan speed control too

As for that case, I've never used it, but everyone I've talked to about it loves em. and for $45, it really can't be beat.

Fozzik · 02-04-2006, 08:16 PM

I've been looking pretty hard at power supplies for the $2k system, and honestly I can't find anything close to as good a value as that Antec TrupowerII 550w. It's got 38A total on the +12V rails, which is hard enough to find until you get to power supplies that are $100 more expensive. It's quiet, stable, SLI certified, and I also own one and have installed several of them without ever having a problem.

People are certainly welcome to substitute if they like another brand better...but I think I'm going to stick with that one in the $2k system. Everything I've seen on the X1900's power draw is that it's somewhat higher than a 7800GTX, but not that much higher. ATI recommends 30amps on the +12V rails (they say that is what's needed for a fully loaded system, not just for the video card), this power supply has 38. If someone understands power supplies a little better than I do, I'd love to hear exactly how the dual +12V rails work, and whether adding the amperage together (like they do for SLI certification) is the right way to go.

Most other reviews/info I've seen about the X1900XTX (which draws more power than the XT version I'm recommending) say 22 to 25 amps on the 12V rail is safe for a single card.