[Destral]

http://eq2players.station.sony.com/e...&month=current

So Oloh, does this mean that then SOE can file a proper lawsuit on IGE if they catch them selling their in-game items, under illegal assumption of powers or something like that?

As an example, if I have a shop, and I'm selling stuff, and some guy walks in and starts selling stuff and pocketing the money - isn't that prosecutable?

Would the same apply to EQII?

[Kheldon]

I would think so, and I'm hoping it's SOE's way to really deal with secondary markets. By -clearly- showing people that IGE and the likes are selling SOE stuff, ie stuff IGE doesn't own.

[Destral]

That would be one way of handling it.

Not saying that SOE is doing it because of that, but maybe other less money-centric companies can use it as a standing ground.

If you can't beat them, quarantine them in the ghetto server, and let them rot there.

[Quinner]

I posted a great deal about this on the Vanguard forums. (Is there an official shorthand for referring to them) I really hope that SOE is trying to bait traps for IGE to shut them down.

[Havelock]

I'm not sure removing the middleman from the picture will do much to improve the in-game farming situation. As I understand it, IGE does not farm - they buy gold/plat/etc. off people who do, and sell it to people who want it. But there are transactions that take place without IGE or a middleman, through ebay, and if SOE rather than IGE becomes the middleman you'll still have farmers selling gold through the middleman, meaning people will still be farming like mad and thus negatively impacting the game world. I'd agree that, assuming *someone* has to be getting money as a middleman, it's better that the people who invested a lot of time and capital into the game be getting it, but the bottom line is that either system will encourage farming, and farming is bad for in-game community.

[Fozzik]

Our unofficial shorthand is OVF (official Vanguard Forums).

One thing it's important to note (although I've been staying out of the virtual property discussions on the OVF so I don't get myself in trouble) is that thinking of IGE as a "middle man" negates their best arguement for VP sales being legal.

You've heard it many times - "I'm not selling the item, I'm selling my time."

If IGE is buying from farmers and reselling, they are spending zero time gaining the items. How can they sell time they didn't invest?

The arguement has been disproven a lot of different ways, but this is one of the most obvious points to make about IGE's shaky footing.

[Havelock]

I dunno, I think it's possible to have a middleman broker time spent - it's hard to say that SOE or whatever company doesn't retain ownership of the property throughout whatever transactions occur, since the property remains on an SOE server. What's being sold is either the time invested in the property or the ability to use the property in game or something like that. I'm sure there are more refined ways of putting the latter; it's almost like a license, but I'm not sure using that word would be constructive. I'm still not sure about the legality of online sales (though I admit contracts was by far my weakest class in law school and my friends who informed me on the broad topic of digital media rights (including, IIRC, my cyberlaw prof), were of the cybersocialist school of thought). I'm more concerned with the detrimental effect farming can have on game communities and the play experience of legitimate players.

[Fozzik]

Time spent can't have value without something else attached to it, at least in my mind. Nowhere on IGE's site does it say "10 hours for sale - $50"

Besides, considering you are only liscencing the virtual property in the first place, time spent has no monetary value. It's the same as spending 100 hours painting your apartment. You still don't own the apartment. Also, the fact that the game developer owns the "apartment" in the analogy means that they get to decide exactly how you use it, and what you are and are not allowed to be compensated for. If you rent an apartement and then charge rent to two other people so they can stay in a couple of the rooms... The super is probably not going to be happy and can most likely toss you out. It wouldn't matter how long you spent fixing the rooms up.

The value assigned to items and characters within a game are directly related to the popularity of the game and the difficulty in obtaining the item within the game mechanics. Removing the difficulty, and a good deal of the popularity of the game, as SoE has... means their market is going to be much less successful than the "black market" that has existed and will continue to exist in their game.

SoE has done nothing but complicate the issue and hurt game developers overall, to say nothing of ruining whatever there was of their own game (there are still developers who would like to decide whether or not this type of activity takes place).

When IGE does it, I see it as fraud. They are selling pieces of the Brooklyn Bridge. SoE doing it is just idiodic, but obviously not illegal (it's their stuff, they can be as stupid with it as they want).

[Havelock]

I'm not trying to defend IGE, I'm just still not sure how the property rights issues shake out. I hit Westlaw today and pulled a few law review articles - couldn't find any caselaw, but maybe the articles will cite to something juicy.

[Oloh]

Originally Posted by Destral

http://eq2players.station.sony.com/e...&month=current

So Oloh, does this mean that then SOE can file a proper lawsuit on IGE if they catch them selling their in-game items, under illegal assumption of powers or something like that?

As an example, if I have a shop, and I'm selling stuff, and some guy walks in and starts selling stuff and pocketing the money - isn't that prosecutable?

Would the same apply to EQII?

It all depends on how the license reads, and I dont have enough information to give a good answer. There is nothing intrinsic about exploiting a right verses reserving a right, however.

The right that a MMOG company has to prohibit in game sales by third party stem from copyright and contract law. You do not need to exploit a right, to keep it. (I could buy all of the Beatles music, and choose to never play it again, for instance). So from an liability standpoint, it should be irrelevant.

From a damages standpoint, it helps to quantify the damage that the developers have suffered from third party in game sales. It is reasonable to assume that the sales offered by IGE could have been conducted by the MMOG developer at the rate the developer charged.

[soldador]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Time spent can't have value without something else attached to it, at least in my mind. Nowhere on IGE's site does it say "10 hours for sale - $50"

Besides, considering you are only liscencing the virtual property in the first place, time spent has no monetary value. It's the same as spending 100 hours painting your apartment. You still don't own the apartment. Also, the fact that the game developer owns the "apartment" in the analogy means that they get to decide exactly how you use it, and what you are and are not allowed to be compensated for. If you rent an apartement and then charge rent to two other people so they can stay in a couple of the rooms... The super is probably not going to be happy and can most likely toss you out. It wouldn't matter how long you spent fixing the rooms up.

The value assigned to items and characters within a game are directly related to the popularity of the game and the difficulty in obtaining the item within the game mechanics. Removing the difficulty, and a good deal of the popularity of the game, as SoE has... means their market is going to be much less successful than the "black market" that has existed and will continue to exist in their game.

SoE has done nothing but complicate the issue and hurt game developers overall, to say nothing of ruining whatever there was of their own game (there are still developers who would like to decide whether or not this type of activity takes place).

When IGE does it, I see it as fraud. They are selling pieces of the Brooklyn Bridge. SoE doing it is just idiodic, but obviously not illegal (it's their stuff, they can be as stupid with it as they want).

well i cant say if soe doing it is stupid or not but it seems to work for thang online mabey not quite as well as some would like but it dose keep the game free to play so mabey if soe can generate enough revaniue to make the game time free and making it so not buying items dosent adversly affect the player then i dont realy see the harm ..

[Saediien]

Originally Posted by Havelock

I'm still not sure about the legality of online sales (though I admit ... my friends who informed me on the broad topic of digital media rights (including, IIRC, my cyberlaw prof), were of the cybersocialist school of thought). I'm more concerned with the detrimental effect farming can have on game communities and the play experience of legitimate players.

So, Kommisar Havelock, your friends were cybersocialists, but you are in fact a cybercommunist--concerned that capitalists will interfere with your preferred vision of how the online community should be "legitimately" structured? Very interesting...

Soldador, did you play on The Rathe? Were you the wizard who saved my ass when I ran, like an idiot, from Sol A and deep, deep, deep into Sol B, ultimately died, and thought I'd never see my corpse again? If so, you are very awesome.

[Havelock]

Originally Posted by Saediien

So, Kommisar Havelock, your friends were cybersocialists, but you are in fact a cybercommunist--concerned that capitalists will interfere with your preferred vision of how the online community should be "legitimately" structured? Very interesting...

The paleocon emerges! As you well know, I am an utter pawn of corporate interests in the real world (despite my current employment). And I have no problem with grossly excessive profiteering in the cyber world, assuming someone is that far ahead of the economic curve on a given server. I've just come to realize that when the twain meet, the cyber economy suffers.

Given that Vanguard is still quite a ways from launching, that gives you plenty of time to talk the missus into letting you pick it up. I've got your back. Heck, even Quizmo has a few free hours here and there . . .

[soldador]

Holy shiz Saediien aye that would be me good sir has been a long time sence last we met how are things with you ?

[Saediien]

Originally Posted by soldador

Holy shiz Saediien aye that would be me good sir has been a long time sence last we met how are things with you ?

Ridiculous. Lest this thread become totally derailed, I will send you a PM!!!