[Skarlath]

In the Silky Venom E3 Mounts Video we all got to see how mounts currently work in Vanguard's beta. Remember, this is quite possibly subject to change.

Basically it looked like mounts have their own icon and take up a slot in your inventory, much like in previous games such as World of Warcraft. Activating the icon causes the creature to appear beneath you, instantly under your control.

Hopefully this is a basic placeholder system, because I really don't like mounts being handled in this manner. What happened to persistance? My first reason is simply that it isn't very immersive - whipping your hellhound of of your pack for a short run, then stuffing it back into a small bag. Secondly, mounts have their own inventory space, and so you are effectively allowing players to have a backpack within their backpack... which is just a little bit weird.

So rather than dwell on the current system, how do you think mounts should be handled? And ships for that matter, as currently (as of E3 footage) they are stored in your inventory in the same way.

Personally I feel that when it comes to ships, there should be no question. Ships should be pretty much fully persistant. Once created and placed in water they should stay where left. If you moor it at one dock and run across land to another, your ship shouldn't magically be there too. The ship shouldn't ever disappear except when you log out, so as to save some dockside space.

My reasons for feeling this is a good idea are mainly because I like persistance. We can assume that ships in general, especially the larger ones, aren't going to be massively easy to obtain. Therefore it would be nice to keep the waters of Telon complete with fleets of bobbing barges. I feel it requires more thought if players have to be sensible about where they dock their vessel, as opposed to whipping it out whenever they want.

It would definitely make the world feel more... real, if a new friend says, "Yeah, come down to the docks and i'll sail you over to that island. Sure." and leads you down to their proud vessel, as opposed to the multitude of players who would otherwise be carrying their ships around allowing them to whip them out on a whim.

What do persistant vessels mean to the game? Well it means that your ship is no longer an easy 'all access pass', or a shortcut across any body of water. This will mean that even players who own a ship will need to ride ferries from time to time.

A compromise? How splendid! I think that there are some reasons for wanting to let players pull a ship out of thin air whilst at a large docks for example. But I have a way around it! Imagine if docks all around the world ran a clever little system where you could tie up your boat and go to a nearby office and sell them your ship for a token. This token would signify the type of ship you have traded in - trade in a tiny little bathtub, you get the appropriate token. Trade in a massive Thestran galley, you get the appropriate token. These tokens would then be redeemable at any participating dockside - you go to the mooring office and hand in your token, and they give you a ship.

This way, players are pleased by the fact that they can reclaim 'their vessel' at any large docks, and i'm happy because whilst you are in the possession of a ship, it is fully persistant. However there is a catch! What happens to all the cargo on board your ship? ... I haven't worked out how to get around that yet...

Phew, that took a while - now on to mounts. Mounts are a liiittle more tricky, because I feel the issue is a little more hazy...

I would very much like to see fully persistant mounts too. You buy the mount and it will stand there next to you. You could have some commands to control it whilst you aren't mounted - follow me, stop. That sort of thing. When you select it and mount it, it becomes under your control. If you were to dismount and wander off, it would stay where it was.

This would of course mean that as you resurface from a dungeon laden with loot, you can't just pull your mount out of thin air and ride home. You would only be able to do that if you had had the forsight to leave him there.

The negative side of this is of course that people might find it annoying. You would have to keep in mind where you left your mount (though ingame features could help you remember where) and would have to always remember to leave him in appropriate places and such. Some people don't like having to think...

The positive side is of course that I am suddenly very happy. I have a horsey companion who is by my side when I want him, and stays where ever I tell him. I'm the sort of player who would take the time to think through where to leave my mount, and wouldn't be bothered by the fact I couldn't instantly call him to me.

Another feature is in order! How about commands that call your horse to you, so that even from a fairly reasonable distance away, he will come running! Aww..

So that's how I would like it I think. I personally don't think that persistant mounts and ships would become annoying - which is their main flaw if ever there was one.

How would you like mounts and ships to work?

[Razorwire]

I agree I would like to see them as fully persistant or nearly so. I would add something to the ship token system though, I would add a transaction fee for turning your ship into a token so that you can't just do it on a whim.

For horses I would probably prefer a meathod like Epona in Zelda: Ocerina of Time. The horse stays where you left it but you can call the horse and it will come to you after a short delay.

But the problem with both solutions is what happened when speeders were added to SWG. There were fek loads of speeders just cluttering up the area and it was ugly and it was hard to pull your speeder out of the mess as far as I could see (I had quit before speeder were in game). So this becomes a fun vs realism issue and Brad has always said Fun > realism

[Eye Gouge]

It would be nice to have a persistant world with the boats and mounts, but I can't see how it would be possible. Once they become more common everyone will have one and the graphical 'clutter' would be large.

Like Razor I like the calling or sending for a mount. The mount should stay in the vicinity once you've dismounted but once you get to be about 30 yards or so from it, it would wonder off for forage. Then you would have to call it back. Think of it as Gandolf whistling for Shadowfax. It would be done with a whistle that is worn around the neck that is soulbound.

I like the docking idea though. Maybe you could even rent out your vessel with the harbor master.

Anyway those are my thoughts.

[Skarlath]

Definitely a good idea on the ship-tokens (adding a fee). You definitely wouldn't want people to do it too freely - the cost wouldn't have to be particularly high, just another small money sink that also adds to realism.

I thought about something similar to calling Epona actually. If Vanguard does just want to keep mounts as items, then I would at least be a little happier if activating the item cause the creature to fade into the world a short way away from you, and run towards you as it did. You could then mount manually. I think it would be better than allowing people to insta-mount.

Of course it would be much better if it was persistant.

Persistance + fading isn't a bad idea. If the mount is over a certain distance away then they could start running in the owners direction, and fade out of the world. Depending somewhat on the distance they were left away from the owners position there could then be the pause you desribed, followed by them fading in some distance from the owner and running up to them.

I'd be happy with that... unmounted horses running around in real time after owners calls would be a bit weird...

As for leaving your mounts around and making the place look ugly... hmmm. Well perhaps you can't ride your mount through all areas of a city - maybe as you enter you need to leave it at the front gate or at the stables and go the rest on foot.

This would partly be good because if you are on foot, the city will seem larger - definitely the effect New Targanor should have on you. You then also have the place a little tidier.

Or perhaps if you dismount in a town or outpost the riderless horse will walk slowly towards a water trough - that might be quite good! Your horse would move on its own into a neat and tidy little corner. And in an immersive way too!!


Edit:

Regarding graphical clutter - I remember a while back someone visiting SGO (Woody?) and remarked at how unintrusive mounts scattered around were. Granted whoever it was undoubtedly didn't see it on a 'peak' day, but if the mounts looked natural, really part of the world, then it wouldn't seem so cluttered.

As for cluttering ships... I actually WANT to see that. Back when I lived in Dubai, from time to time I would be over near the Creek - the large river running through the city. The creek was always full of Dhows and such - heading out to see or mooring up - but it was also full of small Abra's - little ferry boats to take you from one side to the other.

You'd walk up to the mass of abras bobbing by the side of the river, and climb aboard whoever beckoned you on in the most considerate way. Once a few people were aboard they would set off across the river! Often the layers of Abras along the edge were often a couple wide, and so to get to one that was able to leave you had to jump from boat to boat until you got to an edge one.

Needless to say, it was fun. People fell in. Especially those tourists (Muahaha!).

But ocean clutter is what it's all about! I want the harbour to feel alive.

[Atoyota]

Yup persistance is great...

UO had "regular" persistant mounts that would go "wild" if not stabled. Problem was... stables were starting to take up too much room on the server, so they eventually went to pocket ponies.

All players had to do to keep their mounts from going wild was log out while mounted, and they could have kept stables by restricting players to 3 mounts each... Also charging players more per mount (as a stabling fee). Adding pocket ponies amoung many other "ease of play fixes", ruined immersion for me, and was part of what spoiled UO.

On ships UO had persistant ships, problem was the harbors got clogged and you could not get out to sea...

Ok your idea on tokens is not bad, or logging out and your ship logs with you (kinda funny but also works).

Here's my two cents..

Have moorings in harbors as well as docks to tie up. Have NPC's (Moniter) keep certain docks for temporary tie up's (offloadings and loadings).. a no parking zone or... standing only.

Moorings would be one ship per player, and rented. If a ship were not moored it "could anchor" but ships would drift on an anchorage over time. Coastal areas near towns could have player installed moorings, but only in "zoned areas" similar to housing zones.

Shipping channels and or lanes could not be "parked in" or anchored in. Either managed by NPC harbor patrol or (less immersive) water currents.. meaning your ship would drift to sea and be lost if unmaned. Channels should be clearly marked.

So even with this method that allows persistance... some overcrowding could occur, and mooring fees could be raised to counter this. encouraging players to create their own moorings elsewhere away from the harbor.

Lastly... your ship is lost at sea?

This was something I know drove UO GM's crazy... people always lost their boats or fell off them somehow. There should be a way where once per day (RT) you could transport to your ship... in such a way that it would not be something used as a travel exploit. Maybe if your ship met certain conditions of being "lost at sea" (and not stolen).

But yeah, I love persistance... I hate pocket ponies and ships. I can live with them, but I really did like it the "old fashioned way" as it was in UO

[Skarlath]

Ooh, clogging. I have a few ideas.

Perhaps along the actual jettyside there could be considered to be a 'mooring zone', and whilst your ship is in this location it incurs costs over time. For example if you pull up next to the jetty for 5 minutes then you lose a small amount of money as a fee for your access. The longer you stay, the more it costs in total, but the cost per minute could be diminishing - you don't want players losing all their money because they forgot about their ship! The fee could be capped after a certain amount.

So that encourages people to pull up to the jetty for whatever reason, and move their ship away again as promptly as possible.

So what about actual ship 'storage' as it were, whilst the ship is in the world and in the harbour, but not in use. Well really players should just leave their ships floating in the harbour. Perhaps in a similar way to the horses in a town moving towards the 'water trough' area, boats in a harbour could after a while float towards the edge to keep them tidy.

If you should want to anchor your ship in the harbour and enter the town then you'll need to be pulling up to the jetty - so who's going to park your ship? Wouldn't it be great if there were some NPC sailors along the docks who would (for a small fee, or perhaps even for free?) climb aboard your ship and take it to a spare 'parking space' out in the harbour. (If we wanted things to be REALLY good, another NPC should row a small boat out to him to bring him back, but even if the NPC disappeared and then reappeared walking back to where he started it would still be good).

Alternatively perhaps you could 'anchor' at a spare 'parking space' out in the harbour and by some means (clicking a particular button) signal for an NPC in a little rowing boat to come out towards you. Once you are in the rowing boat, it could head back the way it came, leaving you on the dockside.

In a similar vein, if you have parked your boat out in the harbour (or had it parked for you) and have finished with your business in town then you might not fancy a swim out to get it. It'd be cool if there were small rowing boat manned by an NPC that would ferry a player to their vessel they owned (and then go back to the dockside once done).

When it come to players blocking eachother in... hmm... I think the best route would be a 'shuffle' effect. Basically at first a ship pushing against another player's ship would have collision. However the inactive ship should then pivot a small amount, allowing the moving ship to kind of slide past. Something like this needs to exist - you just can't allow people the opportunity to block others in.


There are lots of little things that could be done that would all be pretty cool. Would they be worth the development time as opposed to just having ships as items?

I think so. Every MMORPG that I have spent at least a reasonable time playing was good because it had flourish. It had fluff. It went the extra few metres. Those MMORPGs where I have found no such well placed finesse have been the ones I have left at once.

You don't necessarily need a crazily cool docking system, but I think persistant ships are important.

Edit: A longer distance NPC ferry type idea could be used for retrieving ships left loose out at sea - you pay some money, climb aboard and the NPC navigates their smaller vessel straight to yours.

Or perhaps you wouldn't need to go with them? You pay them, two of them set off on a smallish vessel. Perhaps they sail out to the vessel in real time - or maybe just fade out once they are out of the harbour. They then might fade in when near to your vessel (in case someone is watching). They pull up next to your lost ship for a moment, then both set off back towards the harbour. Again, either in real time or they fade out and back in again.

If there was an NPC service like this, and if it did use the fading method, it should still take a fair amount of time to make up for whatever stupid thing you did to lose the ship in the first place.

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by Skarlath

Ooh, clogging. I have a few ideas.

Oh yeah harbor taxis... seriously an excellent Idea!

the signal could be a whistle and players could spam their whistle in town for jollies, and to show off that they are a boat owner.

So say you pull up to a dock... no fee or anything, you unload/load, and just leave... (in case you forget to tell the npc to park your ship they do it anyways once you'r a set distance away) The NPC's park it like a garage attendant would park your car, and to retrieve it you blow the whistle and they (spawn) go get it.

A fee could be charged but the idea is really a good one.

You'd see your boat sailing up or sailing away, the whistle could have 2 commands... park/retrieve.

Could even work if you sailed to another continent on someone elses ship, and you wanted to sail back on your own ship (for whatever reason) Penalty may be you'd have to wait 30 minutes for your boat instead of 2

Great Idea!!! pats Skarlath on the back

[Nubb]

I fear what UO was. Clutter.
House clutter, absolutely destroyed huge areas of the world.
Ship clutter, good luck sailing to sea, because harbors/rivers were choked full of anchored vessels.
Stables, used up resources and were limited (rather early in UO's history) to 3 pets. This hampered tamers who had to stable their critters all over the world in order to keep a good stock.

I love persistance. I want to see horses tied to trees outside a dungeon/tavern/inn/city gates. I want to see ships at anchor in harbors and along rivers. But I certainly don't want to see clutter. Clutter will be the ruin of persistance with ships, horses (and housing). So the devs have to, and no doubt are, keeping that in mind. The simple cure is "pocket ships/mounts", albeit that isn't immersive nor realistic -- but it's a logically easy method to keep clutter at a minimum. Not only is clutter an eyesore and a physical barrier, but it's going to be a resource burden. It's one thing to store 100 ships in 100 players personal data files. It's another to store 100 ships in some global data/world files, and constantly send that info to all players in the area.

So, while I want to see anchored ships and tree-tied horses, I'm really not expecting it other than for brief periods of time (you ride/sail up, tie your mount/anchor your ship, you leave the area, and after a bit your mount/ship fades from global existance (and becomes a pocket-pony/ship)). This is what I expect will occur.

Now, I would like to see a little realism with ships, more so than horses (because a horse, like a canoe, is "small" and more or less portable (it's a companion, more or less)). While you might be able to pack around a raft/canoe and access it at anytime, I just don't buy into owning a ship (assuming larger pocket-ships here, and larger ships... not "personal watercraft" such as a raft of canoe), anchoring in, say, Los Angeles. Riding your pony, walking, flying, or otherwise traveling to, say, San Diego, and pulling your (LA anchored) ship out of your pocket and setting sail for Baja California and points beyond. I'd want some sort of anchorage proximity realism (with a bit of leeway, but not a lot). You're anchored in LA, and are in Ventura (~60miles from LA), well ok the game will stretch realism a little and allow your ship to pop-up within that range. If you want to sail out of San Diego, though which is quite far from your current anchorage, well you have to sail there (or near to it) first.

If nothing else, have a time-based wait on pulling out your pocket-ship. The location you pocketed it ("anchored") is compared to the location you want to use it at, with perhaps modifiers for the ship type (size/speed basically). The distance is calculated and a delay for "auto-sailing" or whatever you want to say it is is determined. "Placing your vessel here will require nn minutes in order to change anchorages...". Or maybe even require some sort of crafting to expediate a change of anchorage (other than you actually sail somewhere to change it). Perhaps your guild needs your ship to transport everyone for a raid. You and some craftsman construct a temporary dock, felling local trees and such, which then allows you to rez (de-pocket) your ship and sail forth to plunder and pillage those norty gnomes that we all desire to, umm, plunder and pillage, and umm.. that other norty task that adventurers do to gnomes, pantless squeeling little squirming gnomes... mmm oooh gnomes.

Thanks,
Nubb

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by Nubb

I fear what UO was. Clutter.
House clutter, absolutely destroyed huge areas of the world.
Ship clutter, good luck sailing to sea, because harbors/rivers were choked full of anchored vessels.
Stables, used up resources and were limited (rather early in UO's history) to 3 pets. This hampered tamers who had to stable their critters all over the world in order to keep a good stock.

I think stable quota's did'nt hit UO till 2001 and that was 4 years into game. Also to my knowledge Vanguard won't have tamers, or maybe they will (of some sort)?
Logging out on your pet, or your pet logging with you would be a solution there. I don't know if stables will exist in Vanguard, but with 3 in stable, and one in use... that's plenty (per player).

Originally Posted by Nubb

I love persistance. I want to see horses tied to trees outside a dungeon/tavern/inn/city gates. I want to see ships at anchor in harbors and along rivers. But I certainly don't want to see clutter. Clutter will be the ruin of persistance with ships, horses (and housing). So the devs have to, and no doubt are, keeping that in mind. The simple cure is "pocket ships/mounts", albeit that isn't immersive nor realistic -- but it's a logically easy method to keep clutter at a minimum. Not only is clutter an eyesore and a physical barrier, but it's going to be a resource burden. It's one thing to store 100 ships in 100 players personal data files. It's another to store 100 ships in some global data/world files, and constantly send that info to all players in the area.

[/snip]
Boats did'nt really become a problem in UO till about 1999 (2 years into game) with clutter. And even with decks loaded with chests and all sorts of "persistant" belongings... decorations etctra, it never was a lag issue when coming on screen to them (server loading), and that was me on dialup! I had more lag in housing areas when it loaded the contents of homes as you stepped into that screens area. (later solved by making you step on a doorstep to load contents).

But also, pocket ships I'd hate as much as pocket ponies. Skarlath came up with a pretty good anti clutter idea, or we two worked out a reasonable solution...

These days with broadband as the norm, and the town harbor the only area affected, Loading ships graphics is not an issue (I'd see it more as a developer/network issue if a problem existed, this is 2006 afterall)

Esthetics? or personal preferance in regards to clutter and eyesore? That's exactly what it is, a preferance, for you on one hand and I on another. I don't see ships in a harbor as clutter, I see it as vitality, or a "busy port". I see ships parked along the coast, either at anchor or moored, as a sign of population and life. It's evidence to my eyes that we are here, and in that way immersive.

More on clutter, I do think order is important, in that like housing zones, boats should not be left unattended over long periods "anywhere". So again read up in this thread. The clutter issue we did talk about and came up with what seemed a good compromise that did not involve pocketing a ship.

In UO when you pocketed a ship you had to empty the contents, and store them. As Skarlath posted on a pack within a pack.. that would most likely be the case, and a real pain if you prefered "living aboard".

Immersion and the fact this is to be a "core game" suggests to me some of the older ways of doing things, but with foresight. In order to avoid problems the older games faced.

[GuyJantica]

I'd be in favor of something like this:

To moor in a harbor you have to pay the harbor master and your ship "disappears" so as to not cause too much clutter. You'd be charged, of course, but the harbor scene should be based on how many ships are actually moored. For example, there would be x number of ships visible from shore/docks if there were between a and b ships at the harbor master... y if there were between c and d... etc. Also, the sorts of ships visible would depend on the sorts of ships moored. The ships could appear in predetermined places so as to not clog harbors.... YOUR ship could even appear to come from one of the common moorings but really it wasn't there.

Sorry if this is identical to what someone else just posted, but I thought I read through it all... long day.

Cheers,

-GJ

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by GuyJantica

Sorry if this is identical to what someone else just posted, but I thought I read through it all... long day.

If you had a harbor taxi/valet service parking your boat, the area boats would be moored from would be seperate from the docking area. This area could be a permanent graphic and your ship would just sail in and blend with it, then come out again when you called for it (via the service).

Sort of like instancing, but to keep an infinite number of boats in a limited area, as a way to eliminate harbor clog or clutter. It still represents persistance, but eliminates the problem.

If that is how i understand your suggestion.. it works for me.

[LostEnder]

Guy's suggestion was about exactly what popped into my head when I thought about this issue. You could have some persistence at the dock, graphically displaying the last however-many ships that were moored there. This should easily scale to the size of the dock.

I also like the idea of ship and mount being callable. Dismount at the dungeon entrance, and your mount stays in the world for a little while, then wanders a bit and fades out. You come out of the dungeon lugging your booty whistle for your hellcat, and it comes running up to you. Ships, being inanimate, are a little trickier, since having one move on its own, magic or not, is bad for immersion. Adding an npc bosun or other appropriate character whould help a lot. - 10 clutter + 20 immersion

[GnomerBreltik]

I am for a system similar to Guy's but with a bit more realism imo. First for ships, they can only be unsummoned/summoned at a dock, with the idea of a 'example' of persistance in the bay. (i.e. if half the server is using that dock, then it should look full to capacity with ships but not necessarily represent each individual ship) Captains of ships could drop off others near shore but would be out of luck for just leaving their ship adrift in places their arent docks.

Same basic idea for mounts. You have to stable your mount whenever you dismount from it (this would probably only be for after mounted combat was in). A stableboy at the inn watched your horse for a coin, or for adventuring you stable them at the nearest outpost. The stables would look full if there are many folks using the stables, but your individual horse might not appear in a stall, it just has the appearance of a full barn.

This gives an appearance of persistance without the 'cluttered' look that drives most folks nuts.

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by GnomerBreltik

I am for a system similar to Guy's but with a bit more realism imo. First for ships, they can only be unsummoned/summoned at a dock, with the idea of a 'example' of persistance in the bay. (i.e. if half the server is using that dock, then it should look full to capacity with ships but not necessarily represent each individual ship) Captains of ships could drop off others near shore but would be out of luck for just leaving their ship adrift in places their arent docks.

This is how I described a compromise for the harbor taxi idea. Your ship is taken from the dock to an area where all ships are parked, Sails into the area (visual effect) but "fades" or disappears until called.

For realism, an npc would do the parking and retrieving called by a boat whistle boat owners would have. Also this could only happen at NPC docks (I was'nt specific about that before but that was what I had intended).

Outside town harbors, moorings (realistic and persistant), for players that park their boats near an adventure area or dungeon. Areas where for days or weeks a player could park his ship, and for retrieval use and loading it would be neat if an npc longboat was stationed there that could take you to and from your boat (so you would not have to swim or get your feet wet).

I doubt a mooring area would ever fill up, and for order the next available mooring would only be useable. (to keep orderly parking of player ships by players) in a LIFO or FIFO system. Though their would be "lanes" to get your ship out if you left in mid order, and if that happened ships could "bubble sort" to fill the empty slot (slide from one mooring to the next). All done in a persistant manner.

Originally Posted by GnomerBreltik

Same basic idea for mounts. You have to stable your mount whenever you dismount from it (this would probably only be for after mounted combat was in). A stableboy at the inn watched your horse for a coin, or for adventuring you stable them at the nearest outpost. The stables would look full if there are many folks using the stables, but your individual horse might not appear in a stall, it just has the appearance of a full barn.

I'd like to see town stables, both player and npc run businesses. I'd also like to see hitching posts for mounts. I don't want to see mounts "indoors" unless a passage is intended for mounted travel, and I'd like to see all mounts in use by players persistant until that player either stables the mount or logs out. I see no reason for "pocket ponies" at all.

I hope mounts have HP's (are mortal), but ressurectable.

Originally Posted by GnomerBreltik

This gives an appearance of persistance without the 'cluttered' look that drives most folks nuts.

Again, to some clutter is realism and immersive, to others an eyesore. Riding up to a drop off point for mounts may let you know in advance how "busy" a dungeon or raid area is, and may be advance notice on your ability to have an undisturbed or hampered adventure... Also if you "recognise" some mounts as being owned by your friends... it will tell you they are nearby or in that area. Realism and so called clutter has it's uses and can offer you information on an areas population and activity... be it ships or mounts. Using clutter as information on what and how many people are working in an area is realistic persistance, good information, and community .

In short... clutter to me is not always clutter. Also as in my moorings example clutter can be "ordered or controled".

Persistance should be a priority, but compromise (ships in harbors) is sometimes unavoidable.

[Razorwire]

Originally Posted by Atoyota

Persistance should be a priority, but compromise (ships in harbors) is sometimes unavoidable.

Well in the real world you can't just park your car anywhere you want, you can't just park your ship in the middle of the harbor, etc. I think there should be logical in game rules for where you can leave your stuff inside civilized areas. (obviously leaving your ship anchored in some unknown cove is different).

Maybe there should be a chance that your ship/horse would be found by monsters and stolen/destroyed/eaten in the horse's case.

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by Razorwire

Well in the real world you can't just park your car anywhere you want, you can't just park your ship in the middle of the harbor, etc. I think there should be logical in game rules for where you can leave your stuff inside civilized areas. (obviously leaving your ship anchored in some unknown cove is different).

Maybe there should be a chance that your ship/horse would be found by monsters and stolen/destroyed/eaten in the horse's case.

LOL well I hope you read the thread I've made some effort describing some orderly ways to manage persistance.

But yeah an odd area out of guard zone (or bind point), to dismount or park a ship (anchor), could be risky... Your ship could get swallowed my Moby Dick, or your mount gobbled up by O'le Griz if you were'nt careful or familiar with the area.

The cases I think this thread is concerned with are community parking areas or dismount spots where leaving your mount or ship is considered safe to do. I'm not sure if bind points are outside guard zones, I'd think as a ressurect spot they would be safe zones with a large enough radius to accomidate mounts that were parked.

Anyways I think I've described (with the help of Skarlath) a way to manage and keep persistance in the game

[Skarlath]

I think the 'Mingle Zone' is something I could live with. (I thought i'd give a name to the idea of an area your horse or ship is taken to where it fades out amidst a camouflage of other horses or ships).

I think you need to be careful about the conditions under which your horse or ship is sent to the mingle zone though. No player is going to CHOOSE to have their ship tucked away in the mingle zone when they can just leave it by the docks and don't instruct the NPC 'sailor-valets'.

Maybe when a player leaves their ship anywhere in the harbour (directly at the dock, or out a little way) and the player stands on the dockside area an NPC should approach them and they should be asked whether they want to have their ship anchored in the appropriate area, or whether they would like to be asked again in 5 minutes time. If they select the latter then they will be approached again after 5 minutes - this time the choice is have your ship anchored appropriately OR begin paying mooring fees.

If the player was to leave the dockside area before the NPC talked to them, or before their 5 minutes was up then their ship would be moved to the mingle zone and they would be notified. Initially, on returning the the dockside they would be notified again as to which NPC they need to speak to in order to have their ship brought back to the dock.

However they choose to do ships, this is definitely something that would need some beta attention. It'd probably be sensible if, towards the end of the beta, the devs gave EVERYONE a ship - that way you could really see what things would be like a couple of years down the line when ownership is more common.

In fact it would be sensible for them to trial it for a week, sooner rather than later, to get an idea of what degree of solution they are going to need. Perhaps clogging wouldn't end up being a problem once you see peak ownership in action.

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by Skarlath

I think the 'Mingle Zone' is something I could live with. (I thought i'd give a name to the idea of an area your horse or ship is taken to where it fades out amidst a camouflage of other horses or ships).

I hope they leave horses persistant, I see no reason to fade or pocket them. I gave a good immersion/community reason in my last post, but to repeat.. Leaving horses persistant provides information on "who" and how many are in a given area to players that are just riding up.

Heck I'l explain with a little story example.

You ride to a bind point for a dungeon with a friend, and you see a group of mounts that you recognise. You know them to be friends (maybe asshats). So you make your decision to ADV there or go elsewhere, based on the sight and recognition of these persistant mounts. Same could be said for boats moored near an island or coastal dungeon, if you knew the owners, you'd decide to stay or move on based on that.

Originally Posted by Skarlath

I think you need to be careful about the conditions under which your horse or ship is sent to the mingle zone though. No player is going to CHOOSE to have their ship tucked away in the mingle zone when they can just leave it by the docks and don't instruct the NPC 'sailor-valets'.

Maybe when a player leaves their ship anywhere in the harbour (directly at the dock, or out a little way) and the player stands on the dockside area an NPC should approach them and they should be asked whether they want to have their ship anchored in the appropriate area, or whether they would like to be asked again in 5 minutes time. If they select the latter then they will be approached again after 5 minutes - this time the choice is have your ship anchored appropriately OR begin paying mooring fees.

If the player was to leave the dockside area before the NPC talked to them, or before their 5 minutes was up then their ship would be moved to the mingle zone and they would be notified. Initially, on returning the the dockside they would be notified again as to which NPC they need to speak to in order to have their ship brought back to the dock.

I addressed this also in the thread... but just in a vague way, that if the player left the dock area without having his boat valet parked, the NPC's would do it anyways. An option to leave the boat docked for a "time" could be in a the NPC dockmaster's menu/dialogue, and for a fee (that fee could be applied to ships deserted at the docks also) A sign at the docks could warn players not to leave ships unattended, and to check with the dockmaster for "missing ships and property".

For the player that just left and came back all hot and bothered because his boat dissappeared... he'd learn

Originally Posted by Skarlath

However they choose to do ships, this is definitely something that would need some beta attention. It'd probably be sensible if, towards the end of the beta, the devs gave EVERYONE a ship - that way you could really see what things would be like a couple of years down the line when ownership is more common.

In fact it would be sensible for them to trial it for a week, sooner rather than later, to get an idea of what degree of solution they are going to need. Perhaps clogging wouldn't end up being a problem once you see peak ownership in action.

Aye a very good idea for SGO to do, make use of it as a little harbor stress test for a week or month.

[Eye Gouge]

Those are some pretty compelling reasons to leave them persistant, Atoyota. It brings a question to mind that I don't think has been answered yet: Is Vanguard going to have any type of crest or coat of arms for players to use?

I know there was some talk about it late last year on the OVF but I don't think there was any type of dev response to it. I think that would be pretty cool if your horse or ship would be able to carry your coat of arms so you could see who is in town( so to speak) by glancing at the ships in dock or the horses at the water trough.

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by Eye Gouge

Those are some pretty compelling reasons to leave them persistant, Atoyota. It brings a question to mind that I don't think has been answered yet: Is Vanguard going to have any type of crest or coat of arms for players to use?

That could tie in pretty heavily with Diplomacy

And anyone that knows me... knows I have a lot to say about that sphere

Let's just say i'd hope so, and another excellent reason for persistant mounts