Athlon 64...FX or non?

Alodar · 05-17-2005, 09:14 PM

What's the difference? (Aside from around 400$ and .2ghz) I see similar specs otherwise for an Athlon 64 4000+, and an Athlon 64 FX-55, and the only difference I see is .2ghz and a four hundred dollar price increase? Both socket 939.../confused

Fozzik · 05-17-2005, 09:45 PM

Depending on the exact core, The FX series probably has more level 2 cache memory. (1MB instead of 512KB). With some of the newer revisions to the core, though... that goes out the window. I really don't see any good reason to get the FX. The Athlon 64 is a very compelling gaming processor, even without the fancy "FX" badge.

The only other difference I know about is that the FX series have their multipliers fully unlocked for overclocking.

If I were buying an Athlon 64 now (and I will be soon

) I would be getting the 3700+ San Diego core.

Venice and San Diego cores are the brand new revisions... they have a suped-up memory controller, support for SSE3 instructions, and they run cooler and use less power than the earlier versions at the same clock speed. Sweetness all around. If that weren't enough, if you happen to be an overclocker (I'm not), the new versions are supposed to be fairly impressive in that department.

One thing though, if you are going to get a Venice or San Diego core, make sure your motherboard will support the "E" stepping... AMD has a list of motherboards on their site. Click that link and select "E3 stepping support" from the 'key features' drop down box.

The difference between Venice and San Diego is level two cache -
Venice - 512KB
San Diego - 1MB

That may have been more info than you wanted... if you knew all that already I apologize.

Alodar · 05-17-2005, 11:01 PM

No no, I love the information. I don't have to be told stuff twice usually, but I have to be told at all at least, lol.

I was looking at some new sites, and they said the new socket M2 is coming out, and that it's supposed to be better by much than current sockets for AMD. But then of course, Pentium is supposedly doing away with their netburst architecture for the next generation...<sigh> Always something new coming out darn it.

Fozzik · 05-17-2005, 11:15 PM

Yes, late next year we will be seeing a new architecture from Intel... and at the moment the early rumors are that it will be very Athlon64-like.

Socket M2 is coming, and will offer DDR2-667 or higher memory support. It won't be in the channel and at a reasonable price probably until summer of next year, though... and 939 will still be around for a while. There will be plenty of dual-core choices for 939, so you will be able to kick it up a notch if you buy something now. More memory bandwidth is always nice, but in the case of recent AMD chips... they are doing just fine with what they have.

DDR2 for Athlon 64 would show a much smaller benefit than it does for the P4. AMD's is already a very effecient architecture. The extra bandwidth should give a nice boost to dual-core AMD chips once the multi-thread load gets heavier (programs and games start using multiple CPU-intensive threads)... so your next full system upgrade will probably be socket M2 and an Athlon X2.

Just make sure you get a newer 939 mobo, preferrably with the Nforce4 chipset, which supports the latest stepping. This will insure you can upgrade to the dual-core with nothing but a BIOS flash.

vekna · 06-09-2005, 07:38 PM

Fozzik you are da man!
I see you are a newegg junkie like me

That's where I buy ALL my computer parts. They are reliable. fast and normally have Very competative pricing.

After researching, I too plan to buy the 3700 san diego to hold me over until some new stuff comes out.
I do plan to wait for a month or 3 since Vg wont be out for a while, that way, when the X2 is out for sale maybe prices of the 3700 will go down just a bit. $329 isn't bad, but 3 months from now it may be $279/$259 ....

On my newegg wish list, here is what I have come up with to run VG on.
AMD64 3700 san diego
NForce4 SLI Asus Mobo A8N-Deluxe ( recommended board, thanks to your link )
Corsair 1G x 2, dual channel kit, XMS ddr400 (pc3200)
Soundblaster Audigy 2zs gamer edition

Can't decide on video card yet, too many to choose from.
Leaning towards the PCI Express 16X 6800 GT 256 bit, 256MB Gddr3, 16 pipelines, 350Mhz core 1Ghz ram.$329 bucks on newegg.
Just going to reuse everything else in my current puter.

Fozzik · 06-09-2005, 09:30 PM

Looks like a very solid machine, and quite similar to what I'll probably be getting.

Corsair is a great brand name for memory, and usually shows up on a lot of recommended lists. It is a bit expensive though... and I'm not sure how the timings are on those big sticks (you did mean two 1GB sticks?)

I'm planning on getting 2GB of ram as well, but I didn't want to sacrifice low timings in order to get the bigger size. I've been looking closely at PDP Patriot, and Mushkin... both of them have 2GB kits (2x1GB stick) that have low timings, and aren't all that expensive compared to Corsair or Crucial. Just something to check out maybe...you certainly shouldn't have to worry about compatibility or stability going with the Corsair.

For another video card to consider, take a look at the Radeon X800XL. It's competitive performance-wise with the 6800GT, and can be had for a bit less money. Also, it's from ATI...and Sigil has a marketing deal with ATI which will mean Vanguard is tested by ATI with each new release of their catalyst drivers (so driver bugs shouldn't be a problem).

I hate marketing deals...I would much rather if Sigil just went ahead and carefully tested with both Nvidia and ATI. I believe Sigil will do this, because a little more than 50% of the gamers in the world have Nvidia cards. If Sigil allows bugs to get through, it could cause big problems, and I see them being too smart and talented for that. It's probably safe to buy whatever card you like best, I just thought I'd mention the marketing deal just as some background info.

I've been an Nvidia guy myself for a while, mostly because I like their drivers/utilities better. As far as performance goes, it's usually a toss-up. Right now, it's looking like Nvida's next generation chip is going to be announced sometime in the next two weeks, so expect cards to be available by late July probably (at the latest). Rumors are that ATI's next-gen chip is much more powerful, but is also hard to produce, and that ATI is having problems. It may be months before we see it on store shelves.

Just some food for thought. Getting a current gen card after the new ones come out will probably save you some money, or if you've got the cash, a next-gen card from either company will probably be awesome for Vanguard.

What's your power supply like in your current computer? I noticed you are planning to reuse it. One thing about Athlon 64, Nforce 4, and a brand new video card is that you HAVE to have good strong and clean power. Don't skimp on the power supply!

You probably know this, just thought I'd throw it out there just in case.

vekna · 06-09-2005, 11:16 PM

you were correct, two 1 gig sticks. Cas Latency = 3
Timing is 3-3-3-8
Timing is another thing I sort of understand but not fully.
I see where some change timing? on ram.

http://www.newegg.com/product/produc...82E16820145491

This is a link to the ram I was considering.
I chose this ram because it was tested with Asus mobo's and was another item I chose so I wouldn't have any hardware conflict.
I am also considering the ATI cards since VG has made it known they are working more closely with ATI than Nvidia.
I do believe that the game will run fine on Nvidia for the reasons you mentioned. I am just a bit nervous about switching brands when I have had such wonderful, reliable performance with Nvidia. I started out with a voodoo1 and voodoo2, then went with Nvidia ever since.( I remember my TI200 128mb card being uber

)
Heh, I was really looking forward to the voodoo..5500? I think. It was suposed to be the newest monster card, then they went bankrupt or whatever happened to voodoo.
As far as a power supply. I think I will go with http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817103931
550w. I also saw a new power supply where each power cord is separate and you only plug in the ones you need/use. Can't remember who made it though. It was an ad I saw in Maximum PC.

Thanks again for suggestions n stuff. I love to talk about puters as much as anyone. I know more than all these Alabamians I live around, but I still don't know everything. Someday I will though

I think you've tricked me Foz, I spend more time on SV boards now, than I do on VG boards hehe

Fozzik · 06-10-2005, 05:42 AM

The timings for RAM let you know how fast the RAM will respond to various situations. Basically, RAM is made up of a grid, kind of like a spreadsheet, with columns and rows. Only one column can be powered up at a time.

The RAM gets an address from the system, and it finds the address by heading to the correct column, activating it, then flipping down to the correct row, and grabbing the data. The numbers for "timings" refer to how fast the RAM can do the various parts of that process.

Probably the most important one is the first, called the CAS latency. CAS stands for column access strobe, or how fast the RAM can go from one column to another column.

3-3-3-8 isn't bad, but 2-3-2-6 is even better (the Mushkin RAM I mentioned has those timings). More stuff to think about.

The other sort of important number is the Command rate (and often websites won't list it). This number refers to how many clock cycles it takes for the RAM to respond. A 1T command rate means the RAM responds in 1 clock cycle... 2T is two clock cycles, etc. Obviously you want to shoot for 1T if possible.

That Corsair isn't overly expensive, and it certainly will be stable and compatible with most other components. Not a bad choice, either way.

I can't argue with the power supply you picked out... very nice. Just about every company is coming out with one of those modular cable designs. Here's a few of them...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817103924
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817104155
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817153024

vekna · 06-11-2005, 12:36 AM

ok I understand command rate.
Does Cas latency mean it takes 3 clock cycles to respond then?
Another question on Timing: it seems like the last number is always the highest, why? is there a breakdown of what each number means exactly?
And last questions ( for today

) where will I get these command ratings? if newegg doesn't list them, how can I find out?
also does motherboards make a difference in all this? ..meaning.. even if I find ram thats 2-2-2-2 and 1T, will any mobo support these timings and speed(command rates)?

If you happen to run across a 550w or 600w power supply of reputable make with modular wires, let me know please

I will spend as much on the power supply as anything else.
I am an audiophile and know what a good power supply means

ps. If you would rather me PM you instead of chewing up space on your site here, leme know hehe
thanks again foz !

Genda · 06-11-2005, 11:03 AM

When we built Branyanu's machine (my wife,) we used an Ultra X-Connect, and I've been very happy with it. It's 500W, and it comes in several different colors and lighting options if you are a modder.

I have a link to a store in TX that carries it, not that you would necessarily buy from them, but that is where we got ours and it does have a picture.

http://www.altex.com/product_info.ph...oducts_id=4591

Good luck!

Fozzik · 06-11-2005, 03:23 PM

Ok, just re-read my previous post. DOH! Never a good idea to post before 6am and expect to make any sense at all. I apologize, but I managed to get the explanation of memory access backwards.

To try to clarify, the way memory is accessed is that the system requests the data from a certain address on the DRAM. The DRAM gets the request and the address, then goes looking for the data. The memory is laid out in sections called banks. Each bank is like a spreadsheet with rows and columns. The correct row is activated, and then the correct column is powered up, read, and the data is sent out to the system.

So, to describe the timing numbers, all of them are expressed in terms of memory clock cycles.

The four numbers you usually see stand for:

CAS - Column access strobe...talked about this one, it's the time to switch from one column to another. This is one of the most important, because the memory will be switching between columns almost every time a request comes in.

tRCD - Which stands for time of RAS to CAS delay. This is the amount of time between when a row is activated and when a column can be activated.

tRP - time for RAS precharge. This is the time it takes to flush an active row, before you can activate a new row.

tRAS - This is the minimum amount of time that a row must remain active before you can flush it and get a different one.

Then there was command rate, probably the most important along with CAS latency, because command rate is the number of clock cycles the memory takes before it starts getting to the business of finding your data and sending it out.

So, the numbers are generally written in that order -
CAS-tRCD-tRP-tRAS CMD
or
2-3-2-6 1T

You have to be careful about changing timings in the BIOS, and generally I like it when I can just run them at the settings they are designed for and leave them alone. There are dependencies...for instance you don't want your rows deactivating themselves before the column can be brought up and read (which is why tRAS is generally around double the tRCD number, which I think answers your question about why the last number is highest).

In terms of the whole process, here's how the numbers fit in.

1) Request is recieved (CMD)
2) Row is checked, if correct row is active, then column is brought up and read. (CAS)
3) If correct row is not active, wait (tRAS) then flush old row (tRP) and activate the correct row (tRCD) then go to step 2.

Hopefully that made a little sense...

Fozzik · 06-11-2005, 03:36 PM

Oh, and by the way...

Don't worry at all about "taking up space" on the forums with hardware questions or any discussion you're interested in. That's the whole point of this forum!

It's always a good bet that if one person asks, several other people are also wondering the same thing.

Also, it's good to have the discussion out in the open in case I screw something up...another geek can come by and help, which keeps me honest

. My goal is to have the most possible accurate info available for everyone to check out.

Labyrrinth · 06-17-2005, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Don't worry at all about "taking up space" on the forums with hardware questions or any discussion you're interested in. That's the whole point of this forum!

Please continue to take up space

I'm learning a lot here, thanks to you guys

As an aside, I'm not sure if I'll attempt building a computer myself, or if I'll be buying the parts and paying someone to build it for me. But at least now, I've got a starting point in regards to the motherboard, processor, etc

Heloisa · 07-13-2005, 11:38 AM

Looks like I'm giving my dad the rig I built last year (P4 3.2 Northwood) and will put together a brand new system for myself this fall.

From the articles and reviews I've read the 4000+ seems to offer the best value for performance for gaming.

Fozzik what are your thoughts if I built a system around this set up? (Decided to hold off on an X2 for another year or so)

-AMD ATHLON 64 4000+ PROCESSOR S939 SAN DIEGO 2.4GHZ 1MB L2 CACHE 90NM
-ASUS A8N-SLI DELUXE MOTHERBOARD NFORCE4-SLI S939 DDR 2XPCI-E16 2PCI-E 3PCI SATA RAID LAN SOUND 1394
-OCZ EL DUAL CHANNEL PC3200 2GB 2X1024MB DDR 400MHZ CL2-3-2-5 184PIN 400MHZ MEMORY KIT /W RAM SINK
-eVGA GEFORCE 7800 GTX PCI-E 256MB 256BIT DDR3 DUAL DVI-I HDTV VIVO SLI VIDEO CARD

thanks again for all your advice

cheers

Fozzik · 07-13-2005, 04:36 PM

That will be a kick-ass gaming machine.

I might not go with the OCZ RAM if it were me... unless it specifically says that it will run those timings at a command rate of 1T. Command rate is one of the two most important timings...and from an email conversation with OCZ I know that all their RAM is tested only for 2T unless they specify otherwise. It isn't going to have a huge impact on performance (not nearly what you would see if you got a lesser video card or CPU), but for the money those things probably cost, you should be able to get some RAM that runs at good timings with 1T command rate.

That memory may very well run with the fast command rate... but if OCZ doesn't test it that way, you are taking a chance. Check out Mushkin, PDP Patriot, or Corsair if you want some alternatives.

The RAM thing is really a small issue... the only other advice I would give is get a good power supply, and a sound card. No reason to hold back the performance of that thing if you don't have to.

Heloisa · 07-13-2005, 06:06 PM

Yeah I wasn't very confident chosing that RAM to being with hehe and quite honestly, it's the one piece of the puzzle I'm still confused about.

Do you think either of these would be a better choice?

a) MUSHKIN HP3200 2GB 2X1GB DDR400 CL2-3-2

b) MUSHKIN XP3200 1GB 2x512MB DDR400 CL2-2-2

1GB of XP RAM costs approx the same as 2GB of HP RAM but I can't distinguish any differences between the two other then the timings. edit added: I see the module and chip densities are different but no idea what that means LOL.

I really want 2GB in this next machine so perhaps the HP RAM would give me the "best bang for the buck"?

Fozzik · 07-13-2005, 06:20 PM

The one you picked out as choice a)...the HP3200 2GB kit, is actually the one I'm thinking of getting. I've talked to a few people on the Mushkin forums who don't think it has any problems running at 1T command rate at those timings... but it might be good to shoot an email to Mushkin if you can find a good address... and ask them what command rate they got those timings at.

I agree that 2GB of RAM is really something to start shooting for in a high-end gaming rig... and I want those 2-3-2-7 1T timings to go along with the size. The last number (tRAS) depends a lot of the chipset. Nforce 4 seems to like 7 best... but if you're really a nut like me, I'll probably run tests when I get it and see which setting offers the best bandwidth.