[Fozzik]

The early September recommended systems are up...and as usual there are some impressive changes. There is, however, still no $2k system. Sorry about that... but I'm still sticking to my guns and waiting for two things. One is more motherboard choices for the Conroe, and the other is new video cards from at least Nvidia.

As to the $1k and $1.5k systems...new stuff abounds! The $1k rig is now switched over to Conroe-land, because I've discovered what very well might be a real gem of a motherboard. From ECS, and sporting the Nvidia Nforce 570SLI chipset and Core 2 Duo support...this board was just too sweet at $98. It allows me to switch the system over, bump up the hard drive and the power supply, and still come in under budget. This is a seriously awesome $1k system.

For the $1.5k...it's just scary what I'm able to fit in that price range. This system now has the E6600 with larger level 2 cache, and is still coming in right at (ok, a little over) the budget.

I've been hearing from people here on these boards and elsewhere that the Core 2 Duo platform really doesn't need DDR2-800 memory to shine. After doing some careful checking on my own, of both performance and price...I've come to the conclusion that they're right. Especially after the price hikes on DDR2-800 lately.

The performance loss is next to nothing on the Intel side of the house...and the DDR2-667 is much more affordable. It also looks like it gets rid of the possible voltage and other timing issues with some motherboards...so all around it looks like a good switch. Thanks to Kiste and some other people for helping me see the light!

Kiste also brought up some great questions about the power supply I'm recommending. I took a long look at things, and I'm going to stick with it, because I believe it's a good choice. That's not to say that you might not want to get something a little less powerful and spend the money elsewhere... but my recommendation is still going to stay with the OCZ 700W.

It is supposed to be overkill to a certain extent...that's the idea. It should give the best chance right now of working with GPU upgrades (and any other upgrades) over the life of the machine, and it will run cool and very stable in this system. It's also a very nice quiet supply, with sleeved cables and all the connectors you'll need.

Check them out here.

[Kiste]

I think you made some nice changes. The DDR2-800 didn't buy you any noticable performance gains over DDR2-667 and the E6600 is a nice performance boost over the E6400.

The prices for DDR2 memory have increased steeply over the past few weeks. It's quite insane. I bought the Corsair XMS DDR2-667 CL4 2GB Kit about 6 weeks ago for €150, now it's at €230.


I think there are some alternatives people may want to consider. Based on your recommendations, I'd make the following changes:

Asus P5W DH instead of the MSI 975 Platinum mainboard (+ $100)
2x Western Digital WD2500YD instead of 1x WD2500KS (+ $80)
Antec Sonata II case instead if the Thermaltake Tsunami case (- $25)
Antec SmartPower 450W PSU (comes bundled with the case!) instead of the OCZ 700W (- $160)

The total would be the same.

So in exchange for a smaller PSU, you get a nicer case (IMO), a more feature complete mainboard and a 2x 250GB RAID-0.

Now in detail:


The Mainboard

The Asus P5W DH costs $100 more than the MSI 975 Platinum. For that money you get a lot of junk you'll probably never need, like a remote control for media applications and similar useless gadgets. It's also a very nice looking board, while the MSI is butt ugly (green/orange/yellow/light blue/red connectors all over the board). This may not mean much to most people but if you're the case modding type and prefer cases with side windows then this is something you may want to keep in mind.

Some of the more tangible benefits of this board are:
1. 8-phase voltage regulator. This keeps CPU voltage more stable, improves overclockability a bit and slightly lowers the power draw (and therefor heat) of the CPU.
2. The SiI 4723 2-port hardware RAID controller
3. passively cooled north bridge (should be standard by now but sadly isn't)
4. Dual Ethernet LAN ports
5. on-board WiFi

Now, the most interesting of the bunch is the hardware RAID controller. There is this huge misconception that the RAID functionality found on virtually all mainboard nowadays is a "hardware" solution. It isn't. It's essentially software RAID with some rudimentary support by the mainboard chipset. All the actual RAID-related work is done on driver level and produces some CPU load. That's the reasony why you need to install RAID-controller drivers when setting up WinXP.

The SiI 4723 RAID controller on the P5W on the other hand is a "true" hardware RAID solution. It is hooked directly to the south bridge. It's completely transparent to the BIOS. If you hook up two HDDs to the RAID ports and set the jumper, the BIOS detects both drives and as one drive (i.e. 2x 250GB are detected as 1x 500GB). You can install WinXP without any having to mess around with driver disks. It's just so much more convenient than the software RAID crap that comes with most chipsets.


The Hard Disk Drives

The WD2500YD and the WD2500KS are virtually identical. The YD series are enterprise entry level drives, the KS are desktop drives. Western Digital claims that the YD drives have an optimized access strategy for RAID but they seem to perform virtually identical to the KS drives even if operated as single desktop drives. Since I run a RAID-0 via the SiI 4723 controller, I figured getting the YD won't hurt.

The YD series seems to have two more advantages. First is the 5 year warranty (vs 3 year for the KS) and slightly lower power requirements (8.5W vs 9.5W). Other than that, the drives seem to be identical. Even the price is pretty much the same. Personally, I'd pick this drive even for single desktop operation.


The Case

In my opinion, the Thermaltake Tsunami is quite a bad recommendation. I know the case from first hand experience. While it may look nice, it is essentiall a budget case sold at a premium price. It's a rip-off in the truest sense of the word.

The case I recommend is the Antec Sonata II, which can also be categorized as a "budget" case. In fact, it shares many similarities to the Tt Tsunami - with one difference: it's $25 cheaper and comes with a very nice PSU!

Both cases use rather flimsy housing material (0.8 - 1 mm steel). Both cases feature shiny black mirror coating. Both cases are small, which makes cable management a challenge. Both cases support two 120mm case fans. Both cases don't allow for removal of the PSU after you have installed the mainboard.

The difference is in the detail:

1. The Tt Tsunami has a side panel window, the Sonata II does not.

2. The Tt Tsunami features a useless 90mm fan in the side panel that does little more than interfere with the airflow. The Sonata II does not.

3. The HDD drive bays in the Sonata II are are rotated by 90° (i.e. the backs of the drives face towards the side panel, not towards the inside if the case.). The Tsnuami still has a "conventional" drive case, which makes cable management harder, restricts airflow and can interfere will lengthy PCI-E cards or big video card coolers like the AC VGA Silencer. Plus, it's simply inconvenient.

4. The quality of the Tsunami is lacking, the quality of the Sonata II is actually pretty good for a budget case. I encountered several sharp edges with the Tsunami and none with the Sonata II. The Sonata II generally gives a more "solid" impression, even though neither case is particularly solid.

5. The Tsunami has little plastic brackets to hold the PCI/PCIe cards in place, the Sonata still uses screws. This would be a point for the Tsunami, if the brackets actually worked well. They don't. Push in the VGA connector a bit too hard and the video card will pop out of the bracket.

To sum it up:

The Tt Tsunami is overpriced trash. It's a pimped-up $40 case that is sold for $115. I'd say it's worse than the CM Centurion that Fozzik recommends for the $1000 System (which isn't a bad case at all). It does look nice, though.

The Antec Sonata II is $90 and comes with an Antec SmartPower 450W PSU (which on it's own retails for $60). Now, that's value.





The PSU

I've argued with Fozzik on another web board that the OCZ 700W PSU is seriously oversized. I base my opinion on the fact that the recommended system probably doesn't require more than 280W under load. A 700W PSU seems rather excessive and $160 is not a paltry sum, especially when you can get a very nice 450W PSU like the Antec SmartPower for "free" with your $90 case.

That's $160 that could buy you a nicer mainboard and a RAID-0. That's $160 that could buy you a faster and much quieter running video card like the soon-to-be-released X1950XTX. That's $160 that could buy you beer and hookers! That's $160 that could turn into $1834.78 if invested for 50 years at 5% interest! Think about it!

Anyway, in my opinion the Antec SmartPower 450W is plenty for the forseeable future. It should be able to accomodate even the next generation of video cards. Maybe not a Crossfire rig but I've never been much of a multi-GPU solution fan anyway. And again, this PSU comes bundled with the case.

The Antec SmartPower is a very quiet and efficient PSU. It features two slowly rotating 80mm fans in a pull-push configuration. The fan in the back is switched off until the PSU is put under load. That means that unless you play games or encode video and such, the PSU will be virtually silent. It was reviewed quite favourably by Silent PC Review. The one major drawback of this PSU are the short cables. If the ATX connector of your mainboard is located in some unusual place (like on a number of AMD boards) then there may be problems.

If you absolutely must have a high-power PSU, then I'd suggest the Seasonic S12 600W for about the same price as the OCZ 700W. The Seasonic S12 series of PSUs are likely the best PSUs currently avaiable. They are amongst the most energy efficient PSUs on the market and and they are likely the quietest actively cooled PSUs.

OCZ on the other hand doesn't have the best reputation after last years disastrous test by Tom's Hardware Guide, in which not only one but two PowerStream 600W review units crapped out under heavy load. The first unit didn't even reach the specified 600W before switching off, the second one did reach 600W but broke down after a few hours of stress testing under full load and was completely bricked. With Seasonic you can at least be sure that they deliver what they promise.



I've built a PC based on the above specs about 6 weeks ago (the only difference is a 7600Gt instead of the X1900XT and 2 more hard drives from my old PC). Cable management was a bit of a problem, as it is in all small cases, especially cases without a mainboard tray that can be used to hide cables. The short length of the PSU cables didn't really help, either. Still, it's nothing a few cable ties couldn't solve. This is what it looks like:

[Fozzik]

Ok, to start off my response... we'll dispense with the quick stuff first.

Show me the real-world desktop application benchmarks where RAID-0 improves performance. I can show you benchmarks where it does absolutely nothing for performance...which it doesn't for most desktop applications like games. Here's the first link -

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2101&p=1

I can get many more if you would like them. I'll quote from the article...

Originally Posted by Anandtech

If you haven't gotten the hint by now, we'll spell it out for you: there is no place, and no need for a RAID-0 array on a desktop computer. The real world performance increases are negligible at best and the reduction in reliability, thanks to a halving of the mean time between failure, makes RAID-0 far from worth it on the desktop.

They have benchmarks to back that conclusion up.

You admit that pretty much the number one reason to spend $100 more on the Asus motherboard is because it looks prettier...and then recommend a case with no side panel. The MSI board still has all the important features of the 975X chipset. Very few people are going to need more than 5 SATA ports, and the second RAID controller is just silly...considering RAID 0 is so pointless on the desktop. Maybe if someone is interested in RAID 1...but I still don't think that justifies the $100 increase in price, since the MSI board is perfectly capable of RAID 1 (although it's software based).

The YD series seems to have two more advantages. First is the 5 year warranty (vs 3 year for the KS) and slightly lower power requirements (8.5W vs 9.5W). Other than that, the drives seem to be identical. Even the price is pretty much the same. Personally, I'd pick this drive even for single desktop operation.

Except that quite a few users have reported issues with using them as single drives. Read some support forums like you do for Nvidia chipsets.

On to the case -
You start by saying "In my opinion"... and then go on to state...your opinion. Nothing wrong with that. Just want to make sure people don't confuse what you said with facts.

The side window and side panel fan on the tsunami is fairly pointless. I'll concede that point. It does look cool, though...and makes it easy to check inside the case for dust or to make sure fans are operating.

Having the drive bay rotated 90 degrees is nice. It isn't needed, though. Unless you are actually going to use all 6 (or however many) of the drive bays, it won't matter. You can always place the drive such that it doesn't interfere with cards or cables. It probably is better for someone who has 4 or 5 hard drives... for someone with one or two...there's no difference.

Rotating the drive bay does not open up airflow. The profile of the drive is the same...it blocks the same amount of air coming from the fan. It isn't in any way inconvenient...since all the hard drives are mounted in a removable caddy. You remove one thumbscrew, and the whole thing slides right out of the case.

You say you have personal experience with the Tsunami...but I'm confused. I've built four machines using the Tsunami, and all four had rubber grommets and thumb screws for mounting the hard drives. You list this as a feature that only the Sonata has... when that clearly isn't the case (no pun intended).

I've built thousands of computers (literally) in my professional career and as a hobbyist. I do have some idea of what constitutes a quality case. The Tsunami is a very nice quality case, and I've had no issues with sharp edges, loose parts, or any of the other things you mention. In fact, quite the contrary, there are lots of little touches in the Tsunami which put it head and shoulders above a lot of cases I've built in the past.

The plastic brackets for the expansion cards in the Tsunami work just fine. When they get in the way (like with double-slot video cards), they are removable. You can take out a few screws and the whole plastic bracket comes off...and you can then install screws just like a standard ATX case.

Overpriced trash? I don't think you backed that up at all. Oh, and I have the Centurion and the Tsunami sitting right next to each other beside my desk (3 feet away right now), and the Tsunami is the better case. Both are nice...but the quality, the looks, and the little touches all go to the Tsunami. I wouldn't recommend it if that weren't true.

The power supply -

The OCZ I recommend comes with a single 120mm fan, which rotates at a nice low RPM. It is virtually silent all the time, so we won't dig into that part any deeper. The noise level is a wash. The CPU fan and video card are going to drown out the both power supplies.

That 450W power supply isn't going to cut it. Sorry, that's just a fact. For upgrade potential, there is no way that power supply is going to be able to handle video cards a year or two from now...or the possibility of dual-GPU. It has 2 12v rails, one at 15 amps and the other at 17 amps. Based on my own research, current generation video cards will use up to 10 amps (single card).

This means that right now, dual-GPU would not work on that power supply. There's more than just the video card drawing power from that 12v source...so it really doesn't leave much headroom at all. Because of spikes that occur when the video card changes to 3D mode (and drops back to 2D), the video card manufacturers actually recommend a bit more (which is a good idea), so a single current-gen card should really have 12-15 amps all to itself. Obviously, with that power supply it is going to be right on the edge. Spikes from the video card may end up effecting other devices, and hurting stability...because very little will be isolated (one 12v rail goes to the CPU, everything else that needs 12v is using the rail that the video cards are on).

Also, there's the fact that some power supplies don't handle unbalanced loads very well. When the 12v rail suddenly draws a lot of amps, and other rails are not being utilized as much...many power supplies will fail. High quality supplies like those from PC Power and Cooling, Seasonic, etc. aren't as prone to those problems...but it's pretty unlikely that a 450W Antec was designed (quite a while ago) with future power demands in mind.

Luckily, I'm not recommending year-old 600w power supplies from OCZ. So that Tom's Hardware review really isn't relevant. More recent reviews of their GamerXstream power supplies have been very favorable. Would they fail under Tom's stress tests? Maybe...but then again, Tom's Hardware went WAY beyond what a power supply will ever see in the real world. It's a fairly unrealistic way to test, because when you are dealing with the very limit of a piece of hardware's capabilities, results are going to vary (even among multiple pieces of the same exact hardware). That's why we both might have the exact same processor, but yours will overclock better than mine. The upper limits of hardware are almost impossible to lock down...it just depends on how accurate the machines were the day that particular piece of hardware rolled off the assembly line.

The Seasonic is a nice power supply...no doubt. However, it (once again) only has two 12v rails at 18 amps a piece. Fine for now...but in two years? The OCZ 700w has double the number of 18 amp 12v rails.

I see you took out the large duct and mounted the front fan inside the drive bays. Not exactly what most people's Sonata would look like...and who wants to deal with short PSU cables? The OCZ's cables are plenty long and already sleeved.

Saving money by getting a power supply that isn't going to support upgrades, and is being pushed to its limit by the current hardware (so that it will be running hotter and be more prone to dirty power and failure) doesn't really buy you much of anything. It doesn't matter in the least what else you could buy if your computer dies when you start a 3D game.

I'm also not much into dual-GPU, as many who frequent this board probably know. However, that doesn't mean I would sacrifice the possibility of the widest range of upgrade choices. Maybe dual-GPU will be the best upgrade path in a year...or maybe there will be something else to plug in that will draw a lot of power (physics processing, AI processing, who knows?). There is no reason to skimp on the power supply at all.

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by Kiste

Asus P5W DH instead of the MSI 975 Platinum mainboard (+ $100)
2x Western Digital WD2500YD instead of 1x WD2500KS (+ $80)
Antec Sonata II case instead if the Thermaltake Tsunami case (- $25)
Antec SmartPower 450W PSU (comes bundled with the case!) instead of the OCZ 700W (- $160)

The total would be the same.

The total is the same yet the only thing you’d gain from those changes are raid. It would be a downgrade, not an upgrade.

The only way that is a good deal is if you look at it like a system builder - 'this is how it is and the person will never upgrade it until the entire system is replaced'. This isn't the kind of system peeps here will do; they will be upgrading individual pieces.

The Asus P5W DH costs $100 more than the MSI 975 Platinum. For that money you get a lot of junk you'll probably never need

In your own words you are suggesting changing the build to fit to an extremely small percentage of the peeps – those being ones who would use raid and OC – instead of keeping it in power, which would apply to everyone at some point in the future.

Not a wise suggested change at all.

Since I run a RAID-0 via the SiI 4723 controller, I figured getting the YD won't hurt.

Unless you consider that most people have no clue how to run raid, that the raid would draw more power, and produce more heat and more noise, and introduce a higher level of error.

We won't even get into how raid is effectively pointless in games - or how any gain in speed is totally removed in a MOG which is turn based as you will wait for others in the group.

Both cases support two 120mm case fans. Both cases don't allow for removal of the PSU after you have installed the mainboard.

How do you figure that? I’ve never owned a case where you couldn’t change out the PSU once the motherboard was in.

Anyway, in my opinion the Antec SmartPower 450W is plenty for the forseeable future. It should be able to accomodate even the next generation of video cards. Maybe not a Crossfire rig but I've never been much of a multi-GPU solution fan anyway

No, not going to happen. Early estimates are saying that a single DX10 GPU is going to need a 500w PSU to back it up. If we assume they are doubling the figure, then the GPU on its own would need 250w. There is no way a 450w could sustain double that figure. Also, that PSU has 2 v12 lines with 15a and 17a, you are pushing minimum for a current gen GPU (estimated at 15a by manufacturers), if we assume that there is a 25% increase on the requirements for DX10 you are looking at 18.75a. Again, no way that PSU would handle double that load. On the other hand the 700w quad v12 at 18a may be able to handle double that kind of load.

The fan in the back is switched off until the PSU is put under load. That means that unless you play games or encode video and such, the PSU will be virtually silent.

Consider where you are looking at this recommendation – it is very likely those looking will be building specifically for playing games.

I've built a PC based on the above specs about 6 weeks ago

Just to point this out, you spent twice as much on your hard drives (~$300) than you did on the GPU ($126 after rebate).

I can guarantee you no one here would agree with that. Sure, you didn’t recommend it, but I think that brings into question the focus of your builds and build suggestions.

Originally Posted by Fozzik

You admit that pretty much the number one reason to spend $100 more on the Asus motherboard is because it looks prettier...and then recommend a case with no side panel.

I agree. I fail to see the logic there. Particularly when you (Kiste) also state that a big focus is on the raid stuff, where only an extremely small percentage of builders would benefit – compared to the original build which has a much better PSU, from which everyone would benefit at some point down the line.

Based on my own research, current generation video cards will use up to 10 amps (single card).

More. Evga and others have confirmed that the current series 7 (specifically the 7800/7900 GT/GTX) takes 15a. (Not counting the 7950 GX2 which takes 36a.)

[AgentJ]

Not bad reccomendations. A couple things though.

1. I would never buy an ECS motherboard, just personal pref. They are cheap and you really get what you pay for sadly. My dad had two DOA's and another burn out after a month. Myself, I had one DOA and after that bought a Soyo. They have a 1:4 running with me at least. But hey, I have a friend that has ran two pretty well for a while. I think its more of a chance thing *shrug*

2. Memory, 667 vs 800. I asked some guys on another forum about it a while back. Seems there are some differences between the two. And also the timings you choose.
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/347/1/

[Fozzik]

That article you linked is looking at the AMD side of things. On the AM2 platform, because of the onboard memory controller and the way their platform is set up, the clock speed of the memory makes more of a difference. I would definitely say getting DDR2-800 is something to shoot for on the AMD side of the house.

I'm talking specifically about the Intel side. With the way the Core 2 Duo is designed, with lots of caching and very fancy pre-fetching going on...it does not show nearly the difference in performance when moving from DDR2-667 up to DDR2-800. In fact, in most situations, the difference is almost zero.

ECS is a very big company, and they supply TONS of motherboards to OEM manufacturers here and overseas. You are right, to some extent you do definitely get what you pay for (up to a point)...but this does look like a good deal for the price. If I see any reviews or anything that paint this board in a bad light, I'll definitely re-evaluate.

[Giftmacher]

One thing to say, I don't recommend RAID-0 to anyone it's not propper RAID for a start and that's the crux of my main objection; one fail and it's all gone. That may be fine for people using the PC as a games box only, but I doubt that's the case for many people here, and as Foz points out the real world performance boost is questionable at best.

Plus I like the Antec P180 case better

Gift.

[AgentJ]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

That article you linked is looking at the AMD side of things. On the AM2 platform, because of the onboard memory controller and the way their platform is set up, the clock speed of the memory makes more of a difference. I would definitely say getting DDR2-800 is something to shoot for on the AMD side of the house.

I'm talking specifically about the Intel side. With the way the Core 2 Duo is designed, with lots of caching and very fancy pre-fetching going on...it does not show nearly the difference in performance when moving from DDR2-667 up to DDR2-800. In fact, in most situations, the difference is almost zero.

And thats why I come here! *bow to the Forum Gods*

That is really interesting... so I'd actually be saving some cash going from 800mhz to 667mhz also (AMD vs Intel). Although I'm guessing sticking with 667 Intel vs 800 AMD will still show a reasonable FPS differences in gaming...

Hmmm... E6300, [Unknown Motherboard], and 667 memory or an AM2 4200+, M2N-SLI (or maybe this Abit AN9 32X) and 800 memory. My head is going to explode

[CyclopsSlayer]

As both the Conroe and AMD recommend 400w+ just for the MB+CPU I would never consider going below 500w with any of the modern GPU's. Any dual GPU or DX10 solution would meltdown a 450w psu in nothing flat.

[Fozzik]

Originally Posted by AgentJ

And thats why I come here! *bow to the Forum Gods*

That is really interesting... so I'd actually be saving some cash going from 800mhz to 667mhz also (AMD vs Intel). Although I'm guessing sticking with 667 Intel vs 800 AMD will still show a reasonable FPS differences in gaming...

Hmmm... E6300, [Unknown Motherboard], and 667 memory or an AM2 4200+, M2N-SLI (or maybe this Abit AN9 32X) and 800 memory. My head is going to explode

Well, you know what I'd recommend. *wink*

I think either one would serve you very well. Rabb1t makes some great points about upgradeability with the AMD platform...but as far as performance, Intel definitely has the edge right now. Even using 667MHz memory, the Intel platform is still clearly faster in benchmarks than similarly-priced AMD.

[AgentJ]

Originally Posted by CyclopsSlayer

As both the Conroe and AMD recommend 400w+ just for the MB+CPU I would never consider going below 500w with any of the modern GPU's. Any dual GPU or DX10 solution would meltdown a 450w psu in nothing flat.

Not sure if your refering to me or just anyone in general going for a comp upgrade... thats something I tried to look into before figuring out what I was aiming at.

I bought a 500 Watt'r already. I got a good deal on it, so im not worried if I need to purchase a faster one 1 1/2 or 2 yrs down the line.

Even using 667MHz memory, the Intel platform is still clearly faster in benchmarks than similarly-priced AMD.

Don't tell rabb1t! j/k.

I'm now considering just a regular 1 16x PCI-E slot Intel motherboard... because in all reality, if I upgrade at all it will probably just be a 7900/7950GS... However, is it better to get a SLI/Crossfire motherboard to have the 16x slot all to itself on the primary chipset? (I think it also shares the memory or something?) -- im not good /w explanations, heh -- Or do the motherboards with one 16x slot still have the videocard/memory running primarily off the first chipset and the PCI slots/Ethernet/Sound/USBs/ect on the secondary chipsets? --- If you understand that, if not nvm...

I'm just getting in one of those mindsets... where fairly after I complete my build, im going to kick myself saying "Man, I could've gotten this or that instead!" Of course everything goes down and stuff gets better... but trying to get the best stuff you can at the time of purchase can be... aggrivating.

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by AgentJ

However, is it better to get a SLI/Crossfire motherboard to have the 16x slot all to itself on the primary chipset? (I think it also shares the memory or something?) -- im not good /w explanations, heh -- Or do the motherboards with one 16x slot still have the videocard/memory running primarily off the first chipset and the PCI slots/Ethernet/Sound/USBs/ect on the secondary chipsets?

Potatoes are best.

Honestly I'd go for a dual slot board. Even if you probably won't use it for a GPU you can use it for other PCIe based things. (If they ever start coming out with them. Damn slow manufacturing peeps.)

where fairly after I complete my build, im going to kick myself saying "Man, I could've gotten this or that instead!" Of course everything goes down and stuff gets better... but trying to get the best stuff you can at the time of purchase can be... aggrivating.

That's why for mine I looked on down the road and Intel looked too bumpy. As I'll keep pointing out, it is the best right now, of the current CPU choices. That could change at Brisbane, it could change at K8L/AM3, or 4x4, or Intel could even stay on top. You can look at the numbers and go 'this is best' today, but will that still be true in a month? two? three? four? etc. etc.

As I said a lot on the OVF right when it came out - the CPU is only one part of the system. You have to consider all of the choices for all of your parts for the entire system, as well as looking at your upgrade path.

But above all, don't nit-pick.

Things change too much in the PC world to worry about nit picking over every last little part. This generation part x is 5-10% slower, next gen it will be the part that’s 5-10% faster. The combination of all fast and slow parts, as well as the options between picking them, as a whole, is what will make your system. No matter how uber or suxor it is, with every new release of every new part that position can (and often does) change.

And ultimately, no matter how efficient and uber the PC is, the user will also change the equation. An uber player can make up for a less uber system, and in the opposite way, an uber system will not make up for a suxor player. Not only is your system the sum of all of its parts, but your presence and uberness in the game world is a combination of your system and yourself; the unity of the biological and mechanical.

[Ragweed]

I have the Tsunami and I have 2 Raptors in a RAID0 and I can say without a doubt, I wish I had a LianLi.

The case vibrates like mad.

I have built computers with the Centurion. Sleek design, easy to work with.

[Fozzik]

Originally Posted by Ragweed

I have the Tsunami and I have 2 Raptors in a RAID0 and I can say without a doubt, I wish I had a LianLi.

The case vibrates like mad.

I have built computers with the Centurion. Sleek design, easy to work with.

Just proves that cases are really a rather subjective thing. I have a Lian Li, and it's one of my least favorite cases. It rattles, the fans are loud, and it feels cheap...things just never fit together quite right.

My Tsunami doesn't rattle at all. Then again, I don't have two raptors...so I guess that could be the difference.

I guess I haven't said this in a week or two...so it bears repeating. The recommended systems are designed to be a base-line. A set of hardware which provides great value and performance, and gives one option for a complete machine where all parts should work together well. Only YOU can decide exactly what computer (and what components) are right for you... and changes/tweaks are certainly your own call.

We're always here to help with any advice or anything else that someone needs, should they decide that a different config will work better for them.

[Ragweed]

Well one thing to note, and the Centurion you listed has, never buy a case unless it has 120mm fans. They can move more air at slower speeds, meaning they are a lot quieter!!

[Kiste]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

Show me the real-world desktop application benchmarks where RAID-0 improves performance.

First of all, I'm far from a RAID-0 zealot. In fact, I've argued numerous times over at that "other" forum against those who pretend like RAID-0 was some sort of miracle solution. It gives marginal benefits but it doesn't make you splooge your pants.

That being said, I consider the Anandtech article to be problematic. It's the exact opposite of those exaggerated RAID-0 real world performance claims made by some users.

The main problem is that he only tested a WD Raptor RAID-0. The Raptor performs excellently as it is and I do believe that there is a diminishing return with parallelism and application load times. The higher your base transfer rate, the less is to be gained by increasing it, as access time becomes more of a bottleneck. This alone makes Anand's test not particularly useful.

Far more interesting is the question how a RAID-0 of two 7200 drives compares to a single Raptor. It should be pretty damn close in most instances. It's a potentially attractive solution. 500GB of Raptor-like performance for the price of a 74GB Raptor? Look at it this way and it doesn't sound all that stupid.

I also wish Andtech had included a few more games in their test instead of "Office Productivity" benchmarks. I don't need to run a benchmark to tell me that RAID-0 doesn't do anything for office tasks. Plus, they benchmark only level loading time. More interesting would be the initial game loading time.

Also, have a look at this. Will cutting HL2 load times by 1/3 rock your world? No. Is it nice? Yes. And it suggests that there may indeed be instances in which RAID-0 provides a decent speed-up, especially with 7200rmp drives.

Basically all HDD I/O heavy tasks can potentially be sped up by RAID-0 to some degree. Copying folders, transcoding DVDs, exctracting compressed archieves, video editing, defragmenting...

The gain in most cases won't be anywhere even remotely close to the potential 80% or so that synthetic benchmarks come up with. In many cases it will be pretty damn close to zero but it does make several tasks feel snappier, it does shave off a few seconds of the loading times of some games or larger applications, it does make that archieve uncompress faster and so on. And guess what? That's still a whole hell of a lot more tangible than whatever you would get for spending more money on that lower latency RAM or that PhysX card or a CPU with 10% higher clock rate.

Your point about the doubled failure risk is well taken but I don't store critical data on the RAID-0 drive. It's mainly applications and games, which I can reinstall easily, and media stuff that wouldn't really affect me a lot if I lost it.

Except that quite a few users have reported issues with using them as single drives. Read some support forums like you do for Nvidia chipsets.

Link please. This sounds hard to believe since the main difference should be TLER, which doesn't really come into play until your HDs are beginning to produce errors. In fact, I have never heard or read about anyone having problems using WD's "RE" drives (the YD aren't the first, you know?) as a single desktop drive. WD's "RE(2)" drives have been popular for a long time, due to their longer warranty and their higher MTBF (in previous generations).

Rotating the drive bay does not open up airflow. The profile of the drive is the same...it blocks the same amount of air coming from the fan.

I wasn't talking about the drive's profile. I was talking about this.

Imagine a setup with 2 HDDs and a X1950XT with its huge ass 2 slot cooler and you'll have even more of a problem. That's why rotated drive bays are better wrt airflow.

I like the (pretty unique) inside mounted front fan of the Sonata II. It provides an awesome airflow inside the case at low fan rmp (=> less noise). It also covers the video card.

You say you have personal experience with the Tsunami...but I'm confused. I've built four machines using the Tsunami, and all four had rubber grommets and thumb screws for mounting the hard drives. You list this as a feature that only the Sonata has... when that clearly isn't the case (no pun intended).

It was in the early morning hours when I wrote it, that point was supposed to go into the paragraph with the similarities. I noticed it when I read through it again and changed it before you posted your reply.

I've built thousands of computers (literally) in my professional career and as a hobbyist. I do have some idea of what constitutes a quality case.

Overpriced trash? I don't think you backed that up at all.

Appeals to authority, even your own, don't really convince me. I built a system based on the Tsunami, I didn't like the case and I had reasonable large sample group of non-OEM cases to work with over the years. Your opinion doesn't become more valid than mine by the fact that may have thrown together a couple of systems more.

The Tsunami must be one of the most instable cases I've ever worked with. It flexes easily. Ditto the elements in the interior. The whole case seriously lacking stiffness. The 0.8 mm thick case material is OK for steel cases but there's a reason why 1.2+ mm is pretty much standard for aluminium cases, like cases made by Cooler Master, Antec, Silverstone and Lian Li. As far as I know, all Thermaltake aluminium cases are of the same low quality material and that makes them overpriced trash.

In terms of features, the Tsunami is nothing special. In terms of quality, the flimsy case material puts it below steel cases for half the price. The thin aluminium also makes it a comparably loud case. Not a good deal for $110, a price range which is populated by cases that are far superior, like the CM Mystique, the Antec P160, several entry-level Lian Li or excellent steel cases like the Antec P180 or the Silverstone TJ02.

The OCZ I recommend comes with a single 120mm fan, which rotates at a nice low RPM. It is virtually silent all the time, so we won't dig into that part any deeper. The noise level is a wash. The CPU fan and video card are going to drown out the both power supplies.

Oh, let's dig deeper because PSU noise is still very much an issue. From my experience, and I've been what you can consider a "silent" fanatic for a long time, the PSU is the most problematic component when it comes to noise, right next to the hard drives. It's excessively easy, with the kind of aftermarket coolers for VGA and CPU available nowadays, to make them virtually noiseless. It's not so easy with the PSU.

Put a Scythe Ninja (or a comparable heat sink) with a 800rmp Scythe S-FLEX on the CPU, two more S-FLEX fans for the case and an AC Accelero for the video card and your PSU will be by FAR the noisiest part of the system. And these simple modifications aren't even particularly expensive, a total of €60-70 can virtually eliminate VGA, CPU and case cooling noise.

Do you have personal experience with the OCZ? If not, then you cannot possibly know if it's silent. Yes, the modern 120mm fan PSUs are way better than the badly designed dual-80mm screamers PSU manufacturers used to torture their customers with a few years ago but a 120mm fan does not automatically make a quiet PSU. In fact, most 120mm fan PSUs are far from that.

120mm fans in PSUs are in many ways overrated. The size of the fan only allows for it to be located at the bottom, which is possibly the worst place. It's a far less efficient arrangement than the (surpisingly rare) pull-push configuration because the air cannot simply pass through the PSU - the air has to take a 90° turn. The air is pushed against the top of the PSU, some of it is reflected back to the fan, resulting in considerable reverse pressure and swirling, and the air is pushed towards both sides of the PSU with some of it ending up back inside the case through the front of the PSU. That's why 120mm fan PSUs are also far less useful for case ventilation as commonly assumed.

The way 120mm PSUs make up for it is the sheer amount of air pushed by the large fan. That this sort of brute force strategy cannot be "silent" by default should be pretty damn obvious.

This is why even today most of the least noisy PSUs still utilize dual 80mm fans, like 2 of the 3 PSU lines offered by the German company BeQuiet. It's certainly possible to make quiet PSUs with 120mm fans. There are a few available, usually from companies that put some engineering effort into their PSUs, like Seasonic or BeQuiet. Most don't. Even a company that should know better, Enermax, released the Liberty series of 120mm PSUs that have rather uncomfortable noise characteristics (and I don't care if reviewers call them silent because most of these reviewers couldn't tell a quiet PSU if it crawled up their ass and died).

I'd estimate that 80% of the non-OEM PSUs on the market are offered by companies that buy some pre-fabbed Chinese OEM elements, slap it into a case, add a fan, pimp it up with LEDs and then sell it as "silent" high-end PSUs, often overstating performance and understating the noise characteristics. Note that I don't claim that the OCZ is such a PSU, I have no first hand experience with it.

No, the PSU noise level isn't "a wash". It has been one of the key criteria for all my PSU purchases since I bricked a nice HEC PSU many years ago by trying to solder in a quieter fan (newb at soldering). This was long before PSU manufacturers began to praise every PSU that doesn't sound like an industrial grade turbine as "silent".

Once you've had the pleasure to work with a reasonably silent system it's very had to go back. Most enthusiasts have never seen a quiet PC system and just lack a frame of reference.

That 450W power supply isn't going to cut it. Sorry, that's just a fact. For upgrade potential, there is no way that power supply is going to be able to handle video cards a year or two from now...or the possibility of dual-GPU. It has 2 12v rails, one at 15 amps and the other at 17 amps. Based on my own research, current generation video cards will use up to 10 amps (single card).

Not much research needed, simple 8th grade physics is all. P = U * I. 120W = 12V * I => I = 10A. Awesome research

The ampere specifications on the individual rails are meaningless. The total is more important, which is 32A. Both rails draw from the same "source" and 12V rails can provide exactly 20A before limitation circuitry kicks in. They could just as well have written 12A/20A into the PSU's specs. Or 16A/16A. It's an arbitrary number. Most manufacturers settle for a nominal max. of 18A per rail because it's the current ATX specification recommendation and engineers usually like generous safety margins. The 20A limitation per rail is, AFAIK, the result of some stupid EU safety regulation. There used to be PSUs with much higher Amperage per rail, the limitation in newer PSUs is entirely artificial.

Since a C2D doesn't tax the second rail all that much, there should be a full 20A available on the first rail. The GPUs with the highest power requirements available today draw 10A. IIRC, PCI components and RAM mainly draw from the 3.3V and 5V rails. Add the storage devices (maybe 2A for the HDD and DVD peak) and a generous 1A for RAM and assorted crap. That means you're prolly still left with a comfortable 6A (of 20A max) headroom on the first rail.

I wouldn't call that "right on the edge" and neither is this PSU being "pushed to its limit" by your recommended configuration. It doesn't even break into sweat. That's just FUD and ignorance of basic facts. Even if you utilized a full 20A on the first rail the PSU wouldn't be "pushed to the limit" because an E6600 is unlikely to require more than 6A and a total of 26A is still a long shot from the 32A the PSU can deliver.

Does such a 450W PSU support high-end SLI/XFire? No, it doesn't. I never claimed it did. I see no point in investing money in a PSU for a multi-GPU rig if I never intend to go there, just like probably 95% of all gamers.

But does it leave room for future upgrades? Yes, it does. If the power requirements of your next GPU upgrade will not exceed 175W or so, then there won't be a problem. And let's not forget that it's unlikely that someone who buys that recommended system now and spends $320 on a very nice video card will throw it out in a few months for the latest DX10 part. The second generation of DX10 GPU will likely have lower power requirements again.

Right now GPUs are pretty much pushed to the limit. A X1900XT(X) runs ridiculously hot, requires a mondo cooling solution and sucks the shit right out of the 12V rail. Can you imagine a GPU with 50% higher power requirements? 100%? Frankly, I can't. At some point video cards will reach a limit of practicability and that's why I'm sceptical about these rumors that the next generation GPU's will require up to 300W.

Also, there's the fact that some power supplies don't handle unbalanced loads very well. When the 12v rail suddenly draws a lot of amps, and other rails are not being utilized as much...many power supplies will fail. High quality supplies like those from PC Power and Cooling, Seasonic, etc. aren't as prone to those problems...but it's pretty unlikely that a 450W Antec was designed (quite a while ago) with future power demands in mind.

This is true but lower power PSUs are far less likely to be affected by this problem. It's quite funny that you would mention a problem that is very much unique to high capacity PSUs, with quite a number of very expensive ones being affected.

The phenomenon you describe is caused by something called "group regulation". Without getting too technical, the resulting behaviour essentially is that you need a certain load on the 3.3V/5V rails in order to achieve the full Amperage on the 12V rails. The problem is that the latest high-end GPUs don't draw power from the 3.3V/5V rails (via the PCIe slot) anymore at all. It's 100% 12V now. That results in some PSUs not being able to achieve a high enough load on the 3.3V/5V rails in order to supply sufficient 12V amperage for high-end multi-GPU configurations.

Lower capacity PSUs with group regulation require, of course, a lower absolute load on the 3.3v/5V to fully supply the 12V rails. That's why this problem never surfaced before the advent of really high capacity PSUs - at least not to my knowledge.

There is, by the way, a related problem. Some high capacity PSUs need a base load on the 3.3V/5V rails of sometimes up to 2A to even work at all, which some very "empty" systems can't provide anymore in idle mode ever since video cards stopped drawing power from the 3.3V/5V rails. Again, this is something you likely won't run into with weaker PSUs.

The Seasonic is a nice power supply...no doubt. However, it (once again) only has two 12v rails at 18 amps a piece. Fine for now...but in two years? The OCZ 700w has double the number of 18 amp 12v rails.

Good point. If you're gonna spend $150+ on a PSU it should have more than 2 rails. Your right on that one. I still disagree that you should spend $150 on a PSU right now but that's a different story.

I see you took out the large duct and mounted the front fan inside the drive bays. Not exactly what most people's Sonata would look like...and who wants to deal with short PSU cables? The OCZ's cables are plenty long and already sleeved.

You have to remove the duct anyway if you want to install, well, anything. I takes about 30 seconds.

I merely didn't put it back in because it's not needed, it doesn't work with tower coolers and it's detrimental to the airflow. I bet virtually noone puts the thing back in. There's a reason why I didn't list the air duct as an advantage of the case, it's a useless gimmick.

The front case fan is located exactly where it is supposed to be located, a much better place than in the bottom right, by the way. That's not a mod, it's the standard configuration. So I bet that's exactly what most most people's Sonatas would look like.

The length of the PSU cables is sufficient, we're talking about a very small case here. In such a small case short cables are an advantage because there's less useless cable you have to cram somewhere. I like my PCs tidy. I even shopped around for a while until I found the shortest available IDE cable (45cm) for my DVD writer, so I don't have to deal with the excess length. That's also the reason why I put the DVD writer in the top bay. A small case and long PSU cables are problematic when it comes to cable management.

So please forgive me if I don't soil my boxers over OCZ's luscious long, sleeved cables.

The only possible problem with the cable length in such a small case would be ATX board connectors that are placed on the opposite side of the board. There are a few such boards out there. But that's a stupid board layout decision to begin with because you'd have to somehow route the ATX cable around or over the CPU cooler. I'd never buy such a mainboard to begin with and there won't be any problem with either the MSI board or the Asus.

Saving money by getting a power supply that isn't going to support upgrades, and is being pushed to its limit by the current hardware (so that it will be running hotter and be more prone to dirty power and failure) doesn't really buy you much of anything. It doesn't matter in the least what else you could buy if your computer dies when you start a 3D game.

As I explained, the PSU is not pushed to it's limit and it does in fact allow for modest upgrades.

Look, investing money NOW into something you MIGHT need two years down the line isn't too smart an idea when it comes to hardware and you know it. You probably apply that basic truth to all components.

I don't see how PSUs are any different. A point is to be made that buying a grossly oversized PSU for an upgrade you might or might not do in 20 months is a particularly bad idea. Why? Because PSUs degrade. They are probably the second most error-prone component of a PC right after fans. In fact, they contain a fan, so there you go. It's also not uncommon that the electric components of a PSU start to produce annoying noises as the PSU ages. Yes, this may or may not happen. I'm sure everyone has heartwarming stories about their trusted WW2-era PSU that still works great in their 486DX-33 Linux box they set up as a router.

The point is: a PSU is not a very safe investment and it makes no sense whatsoever to invest a significant amount of cash into capacity that will likely sit unused for a long time. How likely is it that someone who spends $1500 for a great PC today will upgrade major components within the next 18 months? Bloody unlikely, I'd say.

What's there to upgrade? Physics card? They've been pretty much DOA (and the PSU could easily accomodate one of these). A first gen DX10 card? Not a likely upgrade when you've just spent $320 on a video card. A second gen DX10 card? Not relevant for another 2 years. The only drawback I see is that you cannot do current generation XFire. That would be the only reason the buy a more powerful PSU. SLI is not supported by the board.

It would make more sense to get an appropriately sized PSU now, that leaves room for some modest upgrades, and get a new PSU (if neccessary) in 1.5 - 2 years when you do the major upgrading. Not only do you get a new PSU when you actually need it, you'll probably get a nicer one, too, for less money.

So the question is really: Does it make sense to pay today for capacity you might need 18-24 months down the line? In the meantime you'd have all this excess PSU capacity you've paid for just sitting there doing absolutely nothing at all, sucking more energy (PSUs are less efficient at lower relative loads), slowly degrading. That's a shitty investment. As small as the benefit of a RAID-0 may be, at least you get to enjoy these small benefits right from the start, while the extra money you spent on that big PSU is essentially dead capital until you utilize it.

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by Kiste

Do you have personal experience with the OCZ?

I believe he got one shortly after I did. And since then so have half a dozen other peeps on the board. So yes, many of us have experience with it.

I also have experience with the NeoHe and Phantom line, and yes, the OCZ is very quiet compared to standard PSUs. In fact, I’d say the only differences in volume between the NeoHe (near silent at ~20db) and the OCZ (at ~30 db) will be noticed during very quiet times, such as those found in quieter neighborhoods or late at night, beyond about 10 PM or so. During normal day operation the diff between the near-silent PSUs (or totally silent) and the OCZ will be negligible. In fact, something like the NeoHe just about breaks even with your case fans. So unless you are going to pull those out, the ~10 db louder on the OCZ isn’t terribly loud.

Can you imagine a GPU with 50% higher power requirements? 100%? Frankly, I can't. At some point video cards will reach a limit of practicability and that's why I'm sceptical about these rumors that the next generation GPU's will require up to 300W.

Yeah, I’m sure that’s why some PSU manufacturers are designing 1000w and 1200w systems after talking to nVidia and ATi. They couldn’t possibly have internal specs which would be more specific than our guesses.

Good point. If you're gonna spend $150+ on a PSU it should have more than 2 rails. Your right on that one. I still disagree that you should spend $150 on a PSU right now but that's a different story.

And with that statement, you admit your previous ~4,200 characters were distilled down to just your opinion. Since all that technical bla bla is above about 98% of peeps who will read this, why bother stating it since more power will inevitably be used at some point and the difference, as I’ve stated, is roughly ~3% of the total build cost.

Seriously, you’d have a better position arguing that spending $200 more for the next higher CPU and tweaking the build accordingly to fit in cost would be a better choice than arguing to change the case and PSU because the PSU is ‘overkill’.

This argument is like complaining that someone filled their tank with gas and spent $10 more than they needed instead of only getting ½ tank because that would have been enough.

I’m sure everyone sees the point of your bla bla, but I doubt any of us would agree. Particularly since the parts you are suggesting the $ go towards instead give just about squat in terms of actual gain and up the difficulty of the build by a decent factor.

Look, investing money NOW into something you MIGHT need two years down the line isn't too smart an idea when it comes to hardware and you know it. You probably apply that basic truth to all components.

Yet telling someone to buy a certain motherboard because it looks better, and then locking that item away in a case with no window is a totally logical and rational suggestion? *snicker*

And, sorry, but many of us here are looking at moving to DX10 within 1 year of now.

How likely is it that someone who spends $1500 for a great PC today will upgrade major components within the next 18 months? Bloody unlikely, I'd say.

You are arguing on the wrong board then. I’d bet if you surveyed everyone here in Foz’s area we’ve all upgraded our GPU or CPU, what I’d consider the 2 most major PC components, within the last “18 months”. So sorry, but I’d say that anyone who gets a $1500 build will very likely be upgrading at least one major part (likely the GPU) within that 1.5 year span.

Sure, someone who buys from a system builder probably only upgrades once every 3-4 years, at which time they more than likely will build a full system. However, I’d be willing to bet that anyone with the technical know-how to assemble a PC, particularly those who can do a full build, will upgrade a “major component” within the space of 1.5 years.

A second gen DX10 card? Not relevant for another 2 years.

Wrong. The half-generation steps have been coming about 6 months post launch, and full generational steps have been nearing 1.5 years and less. Expecting a GPU generation to be 2 years in length these days is just silly. It would be 1.5 years, tops.

Sereis 7 launch – July / August 2005
Estimated series 8 launch – September 2006
Generational span – 1.16 years

Series 6 launch – April 2005
Generational span – 1.25 years

This puts the DX10 launch for both manufacturers at roughly October of this year. With an estimated launch of the next generation DX10s set 1.25 years later, that places that date at January of 2008, with a half-generational step mid-way in roughly May-June of 2007.

It would make more sense to get an appropriately sized PSU now, that leaves room for some modest upgrades, and get a new PSU (if neccessary) in 1.5 - 2 years when you do the major upgrading. Not only do you get a new PSU when you actually need it, you'll probably get a nicer one, too, for less money.

Safer bet now to allocate the whopping 3% extra to be sure your PSU will cover you for DX10 now than to wait “1.5 – 2 years” and spend the full ~$125 upgrade cost and recovering only about $80 of that on ebay. If you are doing a new build it is very logical to spend that whopping 3% more on the PSU since you can’t really allocate that $25 or so difference anywhere else in the system and see that kind of future-proofing gain.

Sorry, raid is not something I’d recommend to anyone. A single Raptor if they really want a tiny performance gain and have the $ to spend? Sure, why not, but only after other items are bumped up a bit. Since the PSU and HD are likely the 2 parts you will carry with you the longest it makes sense to spend a little bit more on them at their original purchase point.

So the question is really: Does it make sense to pay today for capacity you might need 18-24 months down the line?

When you are getting 50%-100% gain in said capacity for a mere 3% price difference compared to the overall system, yes, absolutely.

In the meantime you'd have all this excess PSU capacity you've paid for just sitting there doing absolutely nothing at all, sucking more energy (PSUs are less efficient at lower relative loads), slowly degrading.

As opposed to say, oh I don’t know, getting 2 hard drives when they will be sitting idle a vast majority of the time, and when not they are using more power, generating more heat, and more noise, and introducing a higher complexity in the build and troubleshooting?

Yeah, I’d say bumping the PSU just in case is a far better choice.

As small as the benefit of a RAID-0 may be, at least you get to enjoy these small benefits right from the start

Yeah… mmmk. Cause loading that level/zone in 27 seconds, compared to 30 seconds really makes a huge difference, particularly in MOGs which are turn based and you wait for other group members to zone in.

[FPSDoug] BOOM! Head shot!

[Kiste]

Rabbit, I think you should read my posting again and try to UNDERSTAND it this time. It seems you got confused at some point.


1. The dB numbers you're throwing around are irrelevant. There is no standardized measurement for sound pressure, so manufacturer's claims can be ignored entirely. They very rarely hold up in reality. You're probably one of those people who take them at face value. You also don't seem to understand that dB is a logarithmic unit and there is a human perception of loudness. Rule of thumb is that an additional 10 dB is perceived as twice as loud. Likewise, a 20 dB increase is four times as loud. So arguing that PSU A is twice as loud (i.e. 10 dB more) as a quiet PSU B isn't really all that convinving.

2. The reason why PSU manufacturers market 1000W PSUs is because there are people stupid enough to buy them.

3. I was talking about how the 450W PSU that comes with the $90 Antec Sonata case is more than enough for the recommended configuration. It isn't being "pushed to the limit" and it still has room for upgrades. I've proven that sufficiently. And yes, it was quite lengthy because I was apparently stupid enough to assume that some people might appreciate their misconceptions about amperage, rails and such to be cleared up. Stupid me.

4. How on earth does plugging in 2 HDs instead of one "up the difficulty of the build by a decent factor"? If pluggin in 2 HDs instead of one is too difficult for you, then you maybe shouldn't try to build your own PCs.

4. You gas tank analogy is so supremely stupid that I don't even know where to start. So I won't.

5. I fail to see the point of your funny GPU release date arithmatic. The next GPU generation will be released when it will be released. I don't see the relevance.

6. Your whole line argumentation (if it can be called such, it's actually selective quoting and desperately trying to land some cheap shots) hinges on RAID-0, which I offered as a possible alternative to the oversized PSU. Forget the RAID-0. Just save the money. Or buy a X1950XT video card instead. Or spend it on a decent CPU cooler, an aftermarket VGA cooler and some good case fans and enjoy a quieter PC system. Anything is better than sitting on a 700W PSU and utilizing less than half of it's capacity.

7. We have zero solid information about the next GPU generations power requirements and even less about the power requirements of the next refresh GPU.

8. Your little number game of using total budget percentages won't discuss away the fact that $150 is $150. There's nothing relative about it. Trying to misguide people with statistics isn't clever, it's admitting that your arguments aren't convincing.

9. I don't appreciate *snicker* and *rolleye*. Learn to debate like a civilized person.

10. Calling yourself "Hardware Guru" is supposed to be a joke, right? You may have some solid half-knowledge but that hardly makes you a guru.

[Gargen]

I personally would get a $120 550w-ish PSU from a good brand and just save the $40 (bringing the system just under $1,500 instead of just over). I'd also get a different case because I prefer cases without windows, but cases are completely subjective and it would probably cost about the same.

Neither RAID nor 700w is worth it at this price point IMO.

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by Kiste

How on earth does plugging in 2 HDs instead of one "up the difficulty of the build by a decent factor"?

When there are several guides available explaining what the different raid types are, how to set them up, and why you’d need them.

There most certainly are not lengthy guides describing how to set up and run with a single HD.

You gas tank analogy is so supremely stupid that I don't even know where to start. So I won't.

Kiste, I think you should read it again and try to UNDERSTAND it this time. It seems you got confused at some point.

I fail to see the point of your funny GPU release date arithmatic. The next GPU generation will be released when it will be released. I don't see the relevance.

I’m sorry, I guess I used the “new math” or something. I guess you’d have to understand the new math to see that GPU generations are not only shorter than the 2 years these days you claim they are, but are actually decreasing in length between each generation.

Your little number game of using total budget percentages won't discuss away the fact that $150 is $150. There's nothing relative about it. Trying to misguide people with statistics isn't clever, it's admitting that your arguments aren't convincing.

The only way $150 would be $150 is if it can be removed from Foz’s recommendation entirely.

No, I am comparing your suggested PSU prices to the PSU price of the OCZ. As mentioned, a difference at most of $50. Thus, we are talking about $50, not $150, as a PSU must be included or a case must be purchased with a PSU.

Sure, if you want to argue spending $100 on a case + PSU is better than Foz’s original recommendation of a case and PSU which totals at $275, I’d agree, the $100 case for both is a better deal. However, that isn’t what I’m disagreeing with, and obviously you don’t get that. I’m disagreeing with the argument that ‘a 450w PSU is good enough vs. the 700w OCZ’. That is an entirely different argument, as again, the difference is going to be $50 or less, which compared to the total build cost of $1500 is ~3%. A figure, I might add, which will likely be less than the shipping for said parts. It isn’t worth arguing over, as it is such a small portion of the total it is logical, and wise, to take the 50-100% gain the OCZ offers over a different 450-500w unit.

Even considering an ~500w at ~$100 vs. the OCZ 700 at ~$140 it is still soemthing worth considering even at a 40% increase in price.

Your whole line argumentation … it's actually selective quoting

Eh, you are obviously one of those who don’t like the referencing method. *shrug* Don’t care if you like it or not, that’s they style I use. It is logical and quickly connects points to previous points from other posts.

Learn to debate like a civilized person.

I am. I’m using overarching trends over the span of multiple years, as well as current trends in the industry, and pointing to strengths and flaws with each choice, as well as relating it to connections outside of the single point being debated.

Sorry if my style is connecting to too many concepts beyond the single utmost detail of the one exact thing you tend to be arguing. Some find it impersonal and cold while others don't.

Calling yourself "Hardware Guru" is supposed to be a joke, right?

No, that would be an appointed title, probably set by Foz.

Had that been up to me to set I likely would have made it something like 'gaming hardware pwnzer'.

You may have some solid half-knowledge but that hardly makes you a guru.

And your credentials and proof are what exactly? Your whopping 9 posts here and 1756 at OVF?

Sorry, but I think someone who has a site devoted to discussing hardware, 1,800+ posts here (probably 90%+ of which) discussing hardware, and ~3,150 posts on the OVF (again, like 90% or more are hardware based) beats your posting history.

Your arguments are strong in that you reference what all the little numbers mean, however, you are not considering overarching trends, and you obviously have no clue what those current trend movements are (in your references of GPU generations), nor do you seem to consider that a system is the sum of all it's parts and that the life of the entire system and how it will change as parts are upgraded.

Recommending hardware is far more than just saying ‘x is more efficient than y right now’ because noone reading these reqs are going to build right now and then not touch their system again.