[Fozzik]

Well, the parts arrived for my wife's upgrade yesterday, and things ended up being a little more exciting than I usually like when it comes to building PCs.

First, the specs -

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600
Asus P5B-E motherboard (P965)
2x1GB Patriot Signature DDR2-667
XFX Geforce 8800GTS (640MB)
X-Fi XtremeMusic
Western Digital 250GB 16MB cache 7200RPM SATA HDD
Lite-On DVD burner.

Carried over from her old computer -
Antec Super Lanboy (she loves this case, and wanted to keep it)
Floppy drive
Breakout box on the front panel for audio/USB/firewire/etc

My wife took some pictures, so maybe later I'll show off what the new machine looked like going together (and coming apart...and going together...etc) *cough*.

Everything went together really easily the first time, the PC Power & Cooling 610w is really really nice. It comes in this huge plain white box and just looks industrial and mean. It's a bit longer than your typical ATX power supply...but it fits nicely in the lanboy and it really is VERY quiet. The video card, of course, was very cool to see...just two days after it arrived on the scene we had one in our house!

I did the first power on test, and all fans spun up as well as the drives, so all looked good. I connected it to her monitor to do my first run through the BIOS setup... that's when things went wrong.

The PC wouldn't POST. It just started up and sat there with all fans spinning and did nothing. No beeps, no auto-restarts, no display at all. UGH! Yes, we all run into this sort of thing from time to time...even really geeky computer geeks aren't immune to the occasional issue, especially with bleeding-edge hardware.

So now the fun begins...what part was stopping the PC from booting? Well, I disconnected everything non-essential (everything got unplugged and pulled out except the video card and the motherboard/CPU/RAM). It still wouldn't POST. So, we're down the core of the PC.

Of course, having done this a bunch of time before, I had my suspicions. I was thinking motherboard or RAM. Troubleshooting is the only way to go, though...guesses just don't cut it because no matter how many computers you fixed, they always surprise you. So, I pulled out the super new vid card and stuffed it into my PC. It booted up fine (whew!). It was really hard, but somehow I managed to pull it back out of my PC *CRIES* and put my measly 7800GTX back in.

Knowing that the video card was good made me feel a little better. I had a nagging feeling in the back of my head that buying a video card the day it releases might have been a bad idea. Sure, it's dangerous...but it turns out in this case the vid card wasn't the problem.

So that leaves only motherboard, RAM, and CPU. This turned out to be a bit of a problem, because this is honestly the first Intel build I've done in my own house in...well...basically forever. I have no spare DDR2, no spare motherboards or processors. So what's a poor computer geek to do?

Ghetto troubleshooting! Buy the parts you need locally and then return them when you're done. I headed out to the local computer store and picked up two of the three possible culprits (don't need to buy all three, because if you eliminate two, you know it is the third one). So I got another motherboard and another couple sticks of RAM.

I get home, stick the CPU and original RAM onto the new motherboard (troubleshooting rule #1: change ONLY one thing at a time).

TAA-DAAA! It boots. So it was the motherboard. Or so I thought. I get about three quarters of the way through the windows install...and it freezes. Oh noes! What now?! I restart, and we're right back where we started. It won't POST, just sits there with fans spinning and doesn't boogie.

So not the motherboard. Our possible suspects are down to two. But now there's a new twist...it booted and almost completely installed Windows. That means that whatever the problem is, it IS NOT a dead component. If it worked once, it is likely something intermittent, which of course is totally different in hardware terms than something being dead.

So now my brain has moved to memory timings and voltage. We've talked about it a ton on these boards every since AMD and Intel moved to DDR2 in a big way...and the problem still doesn't seem to be resolved. Motherboards and RAM just aren't working very well together. Could this be my issue?

I ripped open the RAM I had picked up at the store ealier, stuffed it in, and bingo! It booted again. Into the BIOS I went, to check what the default timings were. Everything in the BIOS was set to auto...so I changed it all to manual and set it the exact way I wanted it. 5-5-5-15 on the timings (yes I know, not very tight...but we're toubleshooting here), 1.8v (which is what the original RAM I bought called for), and DDR2-667. Once I set it all manually, I rebooted several more times with the second set of RAM in there just to make sure there was no more weirdness, then I stuck the original RAM back in.

Well now, the only thing that has changed with the original machine is that I've manually set the RAM timings, voltage, and speed. It worked. The PC boots up like a champ and completes the Windows install nice and quick. I've restarted it several times since then, played in the BIOS...and now it is running Memtest86. I'm going to let it go for an hour or two just to be sure.

*whew*

I'm glad I figured that one out. So now I have a motherboard and some RAM to return to the store...and my wife has a screaming new PC.

ACK! Just as I'm writing this, I walked over to check and memtest86 was getting thousands of errors. Looks like that original RAM may actually be bad after all. It may be that one of the two sticks is bad, and when I had the good stick in the first slot the PC would boot and work for a little while before the bad part of the second stick came into play. After reinstalling, I may have put the bad stick in the first slot, which is what could have kept it from booting.

With this many errors showing up in memtest, I'm most likely just going to return both sticks as a pair and get new ones. I stuck in the RAM I bought this morning and I'm running memtest86 on that just to make sure I've nailed down the problem to bad RAM.

More fun than you should be allowed to have on a weekend. lol

[rabb1t]

Crazy.

Don't forget to also turn off the on-board audio. That one will get ya too.

You'll have to run 3dMark06 and post yer scores once you get the ramzor figured out. Of course, you may not want to, ya may want to cry again.

Yeah, that's the saddest bit about getting the GTX, I couldn't use the Lanboy anymore. I love the Nine Hundred, but it won't be for everyone due to it's odd shape and somewhat menacing frame style.

[Fox9]

Sounds exciting. I remember that feeling that comes with the first boot.

Where did you tuck the cables in the Lanboy? Mine went under the CD-ROM and I taped the IDE and hard drive cables to the cage using electrical tape.

[Fozzik]

Pretty much everywhere I could find space. Most of the extra power cables went into the drive bays below the optical drive...most other cables are either along the bottom of the case or behind/beside the drive bays. My main concern is keeping free airflow from the front fan, which I was pretty much able to do.

It seems that it was bad RAM. I'm still running memtest86 on the RAM I bought this morning, and it's still working good. Pretty soon I'll stop it and get to installing software. I think I can close the book on this adventure.

[rabb1t]

Yeah, that is one big advantage I noticed with the Nine Hundred - since the PSU is at the bottom it is very easy to tuck the extra stuff away down under the drive bay. This is the first case I've really had stuff tucked neatly away due to that and the cable tie points.

[Giftmacher]

Top reason for not posting in that situation has always been dodgy RAM for me, not that it happens often but I memtest everything I get these days just in case. Obviously you know the score when it comes to testing, but it's a pain having to go out and buy spare components eh? I synchronise my PC upgrades with my GF now so if there's any trouble I can determine the problem there and then.

Gift.

[Fozzik]

Everything's running great now with the replacement RAM...it's PNY brand, and slightly fancier than the stuff I got from newegg (has heatspreaders).

The next surprise was the idle temps of the 8800GTS. *cough* they are rather high. Appears to be running really well, though. I can't get her away from it long enough to try a game...she's installing all her software so we'll just have to wait until she gets around to installing EQII, then we'll crank everything up and see what we get.

I'm interested to try the new CSAA modes and improved AF.

[Traldan]

Yeah, I was in for a similar surprise when I popped in my X1900XT back a few monthes ago.

And you oughta given me a...er, PM, I guess...I've got an (older, admittedly) Intel DDR2 build that I use. Might be easier than buying stuff from the store only to return it, at least.

Good to hear it's all under control, though. When I'm not so tired, I'll type up my fun story when I first built this machine a year and a half ago. <3 IDE and Windows.

[rabb1t]

Wonder if that is just a GTS thing or a series 8 thing. Haven't heard anyone comment on it in reviews yet that I recall.

[Julianr]

The biggest mystery here, is why you didnt give your wife the 7800 and keep the 8800 for yourself!

[Giftmacher]

Well the first iteration of new cards do tend to be a bit toasty... I'd not be surprised to see all series 8 cards running hot, at the very least there's all that GDDR-3 RAM cooking away in there.

Gift.

[Fozzik]

After doing some research around the web (various forums and reviews), it looks like the temps I'm seeing are normal. Pretty insane...but normal.

The card was slightly overclocked out of the box (I downloaded nTune because you now have to use it to see temps with the latest 8-series driver), with the GPU at 515MHz and the memory at 850MHz or something like that.

Idle temps out of the box were sitting at about 68 degrees C. I know that sounds crazy...but it is actually what everyone is pretty much seeing...low to mid 60's at idle at high 70's low 80's under load. Mine was a little high, I'm guessing because of the overclock and the fact that the fan runs very slowly by default (obviously it speeds up under load, but at idle, running at 68 degrees C, the fan was hardly spinning...which seems odd).

So I went into nTune and throttled the card back to defaults (500/800) and then cranked the fan up to about 75%. Ah, quite a bit better. Now the idle temps are in the low-mid 50's (still hot, but much better than it was).

For the GTX, from what I'm seeing around the web, it's even a little hotter than the GTS. I guess the only way it will be lower is if you have really super airflow in your case or else water cooling.

Because of the card (it's basically like a space heater just below the north bridge and CPU), my processor and motherboard temps are both at about 45c at idle. Seems completely stable though, so far. I'm going to try to do some more game tests today.

[Isen]

What kind of cooling do you have Fozzik?

Would the GTX card in like the Antec Nine Hundred case provide adequate cooling?

I was also looking at the ICE cooling system ... looks pretty wild, what do you know about it?

Isen

[Fozzik]

I think the cooling is just fine... but no matter what you do, the card just flat out runs hot. The chip is huge and dissipates like 150w of heat. It's just going to be a space heater no matter what you do.

Will an Antec nine hundred be a good case? Yep, I think so. As I've mentioned a few times on these boards, the ideal cooling setup (when speaking about air cooling) is one where the case fans just change the air inside the case as often as possible. It's always a balancing act between noise and cooling, but if you are pushing cool air in and exhausting the hot air well enough, things should be just fine. Although it might seem that a CPU idling at 45 degrees C is "hot"... it really is just fine and isn't going to hurt anything at all. You just have to pay attention to what happens under full load, and make sure temps remain within sane limits.

My wife's machine is running warm, no doubt about it. The card is probably heating the internal temps 10-20 degrees hotter than they would be with her old video card. The reviews I've read say that the back side of the 8800 cards (the side with no parts on it) can heat up to about 65 degrees C. You've just got to make sure your changing the air.

However, the 120mm fans at the front and back of her case are doing their job (as well as the fan on the CPU and heatsinks on the motherboard and RAM) and the components are all running quite happily. I'm using the passive cooling that came default on the P5B motherboard, and the stock cooler for the CPU. The RAM has aluminum heatspreaders on it.

I think the Antec Nine Hundred will probably do an even better job than the Lanboy... just because of the space and the greater number of fans. Also, the fans are adjustable in the Nine Hundred, which they aren't in the Lanboy. If it does turn out that she has any issues when she games for hours at a time...I'll probably replace the Lanboy fans with some that are adjustable and spin a bit faster. Then all should be just fine.

A video card is just fine all the way up to probably over 100 degrees C. It might start to get unstable, but it is unlikely to cause damage. As long as the rest of the system (CPU especially) maintains reasonable temps, I think everything's fine.

[Slide]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

A video card is just fine all the way up to probably over 100 degrees C. It might start to get unstable, but it is unlikely to cause damage. As long as the rest of the system (CPU especially) maintains reasonable temps, I think everything's fine.

Be interesting to see what kind of temps you get under load, thats crazy hot tho. I start worrying when my card hits 55c under load

[rabb1t]

Originally Posted by Fozzik

…but at idle, running at 68 degrees C, the fan was hardly spinning...which seems odd).

If they think the chip can take the heat that wouldn’t be odd at all.

For the GTX, from what I'm seeing around the web, it's even a little hotter than the GTS. … Seems completely stable though, so far. I'm going to try to do some more game tests today.

Just remember the basic rule – the manufacturers wouldn’t set defaults at a point that would be dangerous to the system. If it is hotter than the previous cards, yet the coolers are running at low speeds, then that’s what they feel is adequate cooling.

Besides, if it does overheat and fry you are covered by a lifetime coverage policy. So you are covered both ways (in that default should be fine, and if not you get a new one free).

Originally Posted by Fozzik

My wife's machine is running warm, no doubt about it.

The Lanboy is a great little case, but it will see warmer temps than others.

I think my GPU at idle is down about 5c. I’ll grab the probe to peep the CPU… as usual that doesn't seem to be working. It seems to think my CPU is 33c one second, 45c the next, then 55c, then 60c, then back to start that cycle again. I highly doubt my CPU is changing 25c+ in the space of 2 seconds. Guess I'd have to find a more reliable temp gauge cause I know it's not doin' that.

If it does turn out that she has any issues when she games for hours at a time...I'll probably replace the Lanboy fans with some that are adjustable and spin a bit faster. Then all should be just fine.

The front one has its lines going through the case. I’m not sure it actually can be replaced. The rear one easily could though. I got 2 Tri-Cool fans for replacing my Lanboy ones, but they were quite a bit louder and I wound up not using them. (Plus the issue with the front one.) So I have some ‘extra’ I should probably try and sell to peeps.

I saw a new one from Antec that is like a fan on a stick. I haven’t seen them on NewEgg though… leme check again… actually… here is the Antec official listing of the funky one I saw at the show. It’s like “fan on a stick” so you can point it wherever.

It might start to get unstable, but it is unlikely to cause damage.

I still don’t think they’d design it to default into dangerous ranges in the average user’s PC. They would have to account for running games for hours on end or they’d be looking at a lot of returns, unhappy customers, and lost trust in the company.

Also, don’t forget, you are only looking at one card. The company is messing with getting dual cards up and running, which means they have already accounted for double the heat output.

[Fozzik]

The other thing that I didn't really think about in my haste to hook my wife up with bleeding-edge technology... buggy drivers and games.

EQII seems to be having some serious issues with the card/drivers...a lot of textures just turn red sometimes...and after being logged in for a minute or two the water and grass disappear and don't return until you relog. Ug... have to wait for SoE to fix that, I guess.

THe game runs really nice though. hehe I'm going to see if my wife will let me sneak in and get a look at the temps under load now that there's actually a game running.

[Fozzik]

Ok... weird.

She's been playing EQII for about 40 minutes now (despite the bugginess) and so I figured I'd check out the temps under load.

After the tweaks I did yesterday, (putting the clock speeds at default and turning the fan up) the idle temp was about 53C. Now, after running EQII for half an hour... the temp is showing as 56C.

Doesn't seem like that could be right. I checked it on the tweak settings screen in the Nvidia control panel, and I checked it in the nTune monitor thingy. Both read 56C or 57C. *shrug*... I don't have a clue. Buggy buggy buggy.

[arclite]

kind of offtopic but, what are some reasonable temperatures for CPUs?

[rabb1t]

It may not be buggy at all. I've read that the cooling system is a normal type / liquid hybrid. Thus, temps may actually not rise all that much or all that quickly.

I'd really recommend you let go of your fears and let the card be what it was set at. The peeps should know what they are doing and it should be fine for normal gaming temps.

Arclite, as long as you aren't sustaining a temp over about 70c you are fine. Most idle around 30-50c and are 50-65c under load. It depends on which CPU you have in particular and what kind of cooling you are using.


PS - I checked in my bios and it looks like in the Nine Hundred the CPU is running about 10c cooler than in the Lanboy.