[Labyrrinth]

MMORPG.com has posted a very special feature, a debate on “The Secondary Market and MMORPGs” between none other than Brad McQuaid, CEO Sigil Games Online and Roger Kipe, formerly of YourVirtualSeller. The debate starts off rather staid with the points and answers you’d expect to hear from Brad and Roger, two opposites when it comes to the secondary market. After a slow beginning though, it quickly evolves into an interesting exchange of views with both sides making some good points.

Roger Kipe: As far as companies in the Secondary market stealing money, if that were true then the gaming companies would take them to court to make them stop. You are trying to make a very complicated argument into something that it is not. The bottom line is if the EULA's were enforceable in a court of law to stop companies from buying and selling in game goods, then the gaming companies would take them to court and it would all be over with. I believe the real reasons this never will see the inside of a court room is because the gaming companies have been told by their lawyers that it is very possible that the courts will decide that the player that invests all of the time and effort into a game is in fact the owner of the goods he earns and has every right to do with them as he wishes

Read the debate in it’s entirety here.

[Navid]

I like this, cz now all those people on the site know where he stands

[JAdams]

I like it, but it's not near long enough; the two of them hardly get enough time to set their positions. IMHO, not much of a debate.

Navid's right, though, at least it makes Brad's position on this quite clear to those who might not follow the OVF very closely, or not at all.

[tolliner]

Brad should have pointed out that the boat argument the other guy makes does not apply to items in a game.

His friend built his boat and thus it was probably different than everyone elses and customized how he wanted it. Item in game are the same, and by allowing people to get difficult to get items for no time investment lessens the achievment of those who did invest the time

[qualious]

And I also think that you[, kipe,] may well see some lawsuits on the horizon.

-Brad

Ohhhhhhhhh, b**** slapped!!!!

I completely agree with Brad. I have neither the money nor the desire to buy my items or gold online for any MMO.

[Ethanael]

IMO, I don't like the secondary market system if it is not done under specific guidelines. I.E. Station Exchange is perfectly fine, people play on the exchange server knowing that everyone around them is not authentic.

That's the magic word in my mind, Authentic...

I don't like the idea of playing with other people that didn't earn their level, or the gear that they have on their back. It makes me lose respect for that said person and inevitably, lands them on my ignore list. There are several reasons for this with the most important factor being that they didn't experience the game like a true level 60 (example) player did. In addition, as many people have already pointed out, it cripples the in-game economy.

Just like Brad noted in the debate, people do lose that sense of achievement if the people around them did not earn their status. Though, as long as the player doesn't admit to it and doesn't show that they lack knowledge in playing the character, it doesn't hurt anything.

Don't ask, Don't tell.

I also don't know how courts are able to rule in the favor of the player if it is the player who accepts the EULA every single time they log into the game. Seeing as it is a user agreement to play the game, a single statement that states that nothing on the account is tangible, would clear any misconceptions of the player "owning" anything.

Regards,

[Llarecht]

I have played these games for years and never once have I felt my higher level characters or my achievements were cheapened by the secondary market. I completely agree with the statement that your achievement is individual and not based on those around you.

Moreover, I have yet had a single person explain to me how the secondary market impacts the in-game economy. I have posted this question in numerous chats over the years and never have been given an answer, let alone one that actually details the damage done.

Using the secondary market is not something I do, but can understand the draw and, in fact, the need for. Moreover, the EULA seems to me to be like standard waivers we agree to all the time - agreements courts will look past and instead focus on the true nature of the item or injury in any particular case.

I simply disagree that the secondary market somehow cheapens the experience or injures in-game economies. For me, my achievements remain, I know how I leveled or got my gear, I can play with the best of them, and it simply does not matter to me how another player leveled or got his gear. Until someone actually takes the time to explain the exact nature of damage experienced by in-game economies, I will support the secondary market as a resource to non core and hard core gamers.

[jshansen]

The difference between players that purchase character, accounts, gear, etc, and those that earn them are parallel to those that grind on a single mob for ten levels by themselves and those that experience the game through quest, story line, grouping, raiding and every nuance that the devs have put into the game. A grinder has achieved the same results with out using his/her brain at all, the real player has appreciated the game for everything it has to offer. The seconday market user has achieved the same results with the same amount of brain power as the grinder. I am not saying that a grinder is any less of a gamer than any other player, but there is some simmilarity between them and RMT users. I have never had a problem with the way in which players around me achieved their lvl, lewts, or whatever. The thing that has concerned me is my toon, my lewts, my status. Discuss the intangible, no ownership agrument, there are currently studies underway by the IRS to begin taxation of assets earned in game.
check this out disturbing:
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/J...l_janfeb06.msp

The EULA will not hold up in court if taxation is becoming an issue, the user will "own" his/her lewts, and be free to use them as he/she pleases as long as the IRS gets their share, the gov't will protect the rights of the user and not the producer.

[jshansen]

better article that describes the reality of ownership in mmo virtual world.


http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.04/law.html

[Apostle]

One aspect of the negative regard toward the secondary market that I do not think many people have expressed in a very articulate fashion is the aspect of change. You see a lot of people who say they are against it, but it seems they have a difficult saying why. What I think they are trying to express is this idea of "Change".

The developers and any company producing an MMO let their consumers know the commonly accepted adage "Game Expereince May Change During Online Play" Its a warning if you will that changes may need to take place for the good of the game as a whole. The problem comes, IMHO, when the secondary market comes into play with this same type of influence over the entire game population. The secondary market "Changes" the gaming experience for those of us who do not wish to have anything to do with it regardless of our wishes. This change comes even though we are not paying our monthly subscription to these individuals or companies.

I do not believe anyone can honestly say that there is no effective change to our gaming experience. Whenever you introduce an outside influence on an MMO, you are effectively changing the environment. In this case real world currency. If Item A costs X ammount of in game currency then anyone who wants that item would have to acrue that ammount of in game currency to purchase it. However, when you introduce the ability to purchase that item with Real world currency as well you affectively make it more difficult for an individual to utilize the previous method of purchase. The item may sell to another person for real world currency before a "legitimate" purchaser acrues the necessary in-game funds. This is affecting the gaming experience of everyone involved whether they support the secondary market or not.

You can then call such influence other names, like maybe "Denial of Service". We all know thats illegal. What about purchasing a TV from Best Buy? If someone just came into your house and spray painted it bright red wouldnt you be upset? That is effectively what the secondary market is doing by affecting a change to a product we are paying for w/out our consent when those actions change the in-game expereince for the rest of us.

Just my 2c

Apostle

[ranc0r]

i heard that there trying to put a tax on the secondary market here in the US

[Nishua]

Personally speaking I hate the secondary market. Like Brad said it takes away from the experience and sense of accomplishment a players feels after completing a task.

"No, my main point was not that it was bad for the gaming companies, but for the game communities - the players. If you create an MMOG in which earning items in-game is an important part of character advancement such that you feel a sense of accomplishment when you do earn that item, allowing others to simply purchase that same item in the secondary market cheapens the experiences of the person who did earn it in-game. It lessens his feeling of accomplishment and discourages him. This doesn't make many/most players feel very good about the time they then put in, which then leads to being upset with the game itself. No, it might not bother everyone, but I am quite certain it bothers most people."


AGREED!

[Dread Quixadhal]

Originally Posted by Llarecht

Moreover, I have yet had a single person explain to me how the secondary market impacts the in-game economy. I have posted this question in numerous chats over the years and never have been given an answer, let alone one that actually details the damage done.

The secondary market changes the game (in a negative way) for players who don't or can't participate, in several ways. First, if rankings between players is an important part of the game, it works the same way favoritism does in the workplace. Instead of playing the game and earning your levels, gear, whatever... you purchased them and thus leapfrogged ahead of where you deserve to be. This is much the same as a company hiring someone because they're a good friend of the boss, rather than because they can do the job.

On that note, it also hurts players who are at the end game trying to accomplish the usually difficult end game challenges. If a particular dungeon requires 20 people to conquer, and if all 20 people have to be playing their class properly, AND if you can't drag 30 people in to make up for the slackers... having "ebay" characters in the game can result in party wipes. If I see a level XX character in rare equipment, I assume they know how to play their class pretty well. If they purchased that gear, they may not actually play very well at all.

Consider too, that if PvP is a part of the game, quite often the gear matters most. If Player A is twice as skilled as Player B, and they're the same level/class/skills/etc, then you'd expect Player A to win more often. However, if gear has a large impact (and it usually does), Player B may end up winning because they have a larger real-life wallet and could afford to buy all the best gear.

Finally, the secondary market really hurts the crafting system and economy of these games. Here, I can speak from experience in EVE-Online. In that game, raw materials are obtained by mining asteroids, or by reprocessing loot. When the macro-miners show up (folks who farm raw materials 23/7, sell them on the in-game market, and then sell the ISK on the secondary market), the prices of raw materials drop to the point that NON-MACRO mining becomes pointless. The flood of raw materials also lowers the prices on other items, since they're now easier to make. That, in turn, makes it harder for a new player to break into crafting -- since the ROI is much lower than it was.

EVE tracks the prices of every item on the market over the last year, and you can watch the graph to see the sudden sharp changes in prices which often correspond to another wave of macroers getting banned.

You might think that's a good thing for PvP, since cheaper ships and equipment would mean more people would risk it right? What actually happens is that those who already PvP can now afford to outfit the very high-end gear they might have skimped on before, since the risk is now much lower. If a module that cost 250 million ISK drops to 100 million because of an artificial boost in the supply due to cheap mats, I can afford to buy 2 of them and lose one. The new player will still find even 1 to be expensive.

So, if fair PvP, pick-up groups, earning an in-game living doing crafting, or being able to compare yourself to others matters to you, and you aren't wealthy in real-life, the secondary market is a bad thing.

[Charabis]

I second that. I cancelled my Eve Online accounts (yes PLURAL) last month. My main account which I throughly enjoyed was a high-end miner, and his profits just kept slipping because of the macroers.

What's a high-end miner? Able to fly Exhumers, maxed out Mining enhancement skills, maximum yields, the works. There weren't any mining skills left for me to get! I never designed him with combat in mind. Once the macroers hit, he was completely ruined. Even the system I had mined became nothing but striped belts with nothing worth going after.

Nobody is ever going to convince me that secondary markets for in-game currency don't impact the game. I have seen otherwise.

[Skezix]

Originally Posted by Llarecht

I have played these games for years and never once have I felt my higher level characters or my achievements were cheapened by the secondary market. I completely agree with the statement that your achievement is individual and not based on those around you.

Moreover, I have yet had a single person explain to me how the secondary market impacts the in-game economy. I have posted this question in numerous chats over the years and never have been given an answer, let alone one that actually details the damage done.

Using the secondary market is not something I do, but can understand the draw and, in fact, the need for. Moreover, the EULA seems to me to be like standard waivers we agree to all the time - agreements courts will look past and instead focus on the true nature of the item or injury in any particular case.

I simply disagree that the secondary market somehow cheapens the experience or injures in-game economies. For me, my achievements remain, I know how I leveled or got my gear, I can play with the best of them, and it simply does not matter to me how another player leveled or got his gear. Until someone actually takes the time to explain the exact nature of damage experienced by in-game economies, I will support the secondary market as a resource to non core and hard core gamers.

You can read about how people take advantage of markets in many games flooding the game with gold, plat. It is very easy to see how it impacts the game. The MMO's game markets are not just tossed in.. If indeed they are then they have failed, it takes careful planning on multiple lvls to make an economy work even changes in patches due to obvious problems.

For instance and I have watched this happen alot. Its a viscious circle that takes place. Gold farmer farms on many lvls from buying items cheap and inflating price to standing out killing something for hours to finding bugs and exploiting them untill cought. They sell thier items at as high a price as possible, the more rare of course the more costly, thus to sell the gold/plat. You yourself need the spell they are selling but are unwilling to pay such a large amount of money for it, yet you have a sword you are shouting for sale/trade for that spell. Someone see's you auctioning, sees the spell up forsale and figures oh what the heck its only 75$ in gold to get the sword I want so they buy the gold. While the spell was up forsale people saw it and now it has been given a value so when these people get the spell of course its price is elevated above what the Dev's orig planned. Now do this on a massive scale with tons of items elevated in price and look at the effect. This impacts even the poorest of poor beggining tradeskillers and the prices of what they can get from thier broadswords. Drop rates of gold/plat would need to be adjusted if this was the case because based on the "code" it should be very difficult for someone to obtain such large amounts of gold/plat so early in life. Yet the gold farmer is willing to wait for the big price and someone is willing to spend 75$ to get it. Again put this on a massive scale, not many people understand that these gold farmers are not just "Harry" in his house selling off a few hundred gold a month to get beer money, there are thousands of people overseas paid by the hour to do nothing but collect gold. It causes a depression bottom line, the value of the money in game drops big time because there is such a large flood of it.

I will use fictional numbers US depression you had 100$ in the bank you went to the bank to get your cash and they handed you 7$and said "sorry" Yet a pound of sugar is still 17 cents. The value of the dollar was impacted yes but they tried to control it. FDIC WOOHOO everyone loves to hear that because they do not understand what impact it will have.. You have 100$ in the bank, deprssion hits you go get your 100$ out because its FDIC!! Yet is there anything backing that dollar? No so now rather than the pound of sugar costing 17 cents it now costs 5$ the value of the money dropped? Why because there was a flood of money printed that was not backed by the economy as a whole.. Just as the gold farmers do, flood the market without the backing from the entire economy.

Bug's in games use to be the biggest cause of this, very large amounts of gold hitting a slowly developing market. Now its 1000overseas employee's stuffing very large amounts of gold into the market to soon.

Tradeskills etc are all impacted big time, where you see the biggest impact is down the road in the game, huge wave of people start the game, economy is growing as expected as "planned" with some changes "because not everything is forseen" and BAM tons of gold hits the market causing like i stated before rise in prices decline in the value of money.. Yet the drop rate for Coin has not increased so where the impact hits the hardest is the newbies that start the game 6 months maybe a year after launch. They still only gain coin at a slow rate as Coded yet the prices of things are so inflated when in all actuality the prices at this point should be dropping due to a lower demand.. So what happens? The newbie feels pressure, having a hard time advancing so he goes out and buys some gold to buy what? The inflated priced newbie items sold by whom? Gold farmers, you me and the guy next door. We are only selling based on the market, and rather than the gold holding the value that was orig intended its now worth a fraction.

I have a good solution for this problem it would not stop all the gold sold on the market but it would indeed keep it down so low the market orig created would cont to thrive.

Skez

[Sneakyfoot]

One of the things that drove me away from WOW was the constant advertisement of companies selling online game cash for real money.
One would get sent spam about it via the game mail box and also constant spam through random tells. Lots of people petitioned but there was so much of it happening that it was just about impossible to stop them.Everytime they banned one acount another would be created by the companies and the harrasment would continue.I can't imagine anyone not being frustraited by this.

Sneaky

[Sunrock]

I agree with you there Sneakyfoot. Even though it was not the finnal blow that made me quit WoW it was one part of it. I even saw later on, on my old WoW guilds forum that they wornd ppl from visiting known WoW webpages becouse there is/was a troian horse that snatched your login name and password so the gold farms could rob you of all your gold and items. One of my old guild mates had got that virus when visit allakhazam.

Skezix is making one hell of a good argument for how it hurts the economy, but that is not the only aspect the secondery market hurts and Brad talked about fealing less acomplishments when you know others can take a easy shortcut to obtain the same goals. But there is even an other aspect that so far I have not seen any one mentioned here.

It is how top level players treat random strangers of lower levels. This does not applay to every top level player out there and this is more a self experience thing, but I don't think I'm alone in this.

I have found myself becoming more and more unwilling to help newbies and random strangers I meet in my adventures, especily with donating a few gold coins or good equipment, the older the server becomes and the more "gold farmers" that populate the server. Way some might wonder. It's becouse I have been burned before where players have taken advantage of my cindness and then sold there chars on the "secondery market". I one time helped a new guild mate when I played SWG to obtain jedi status. Devoted maby around 40-50 houers of grouping with him and suporting him with items and money just to find out one week after he unlocked his jedi he sold it on eBay. Thats way I don't like to give a good weapon or a good chunk of money to some newbie becouse I don't know if he will sell it for real $$$ later or not.

During the good old days back in the 90's when we where playing MUDs (Multi User Dungions. A text based online game that was the mush like todays MMORPGs that was played over a telnet client, if any kids reading this ) it was quite common that old veterans sponsered and helped out the newbies and lower lv players. It made us old vets to feal good about ourself and made it easier for the newbies to get hooked on the game. It created a really good comunity fealing. Ok the MUD communities was mush smaller then a MMORPG community of today but I think the "secondery market" have a big part to play when it come to how people treat strangers inside the game.... and that might be the bigest drawback of the "secondery market"

[dustmite]

Copius verbiage arguments either side aside, I think one can strip this down to the bare bones, either:

1- One can play the game by the rules

or

2- One can play the game any way they want

Since the second is professed to be 'reasonable, non-intrusive, won't affect others, and it's the players/public's right', then why not push it all the way to it's logical conclusion:

** Make every item in the game available to anyone, at any time, including quests, levels, skills **

There. Settles that. You don't want to play by the rules? No problem, you can buy a character at any level with any items in a minute or two and be ready for a raid. You can skip quests that are too hard, skip those tough levels, boring places to travel to, all that clicking to get skills up, what a cool thing!

Won't that be fun?

[cametall]

I think the majority of 2nd Market purchases are for in game money. Having too much in game currency causes inflation of items. This occurred in Star Wars Galaxies where very little money was leaving the system via money sinks.

When this extra money builds up and doesn't leave player's hands items that would normally be very cheap to buy suddenly skyrocket due to the amount of money floating around.

How do Secondary Markets affect game economies? Most people buying money from IGE are actually veteran players, I knew a few in World of Warcraft who used IGE type companies to buy gold to purchase their epic mounts (while I rode around on my dinky slow level 40 mount).

World of Warcraft is able to keep the economy in check mostly due to the lack of player involvement. Basically Blizzard decides how much money will exist in the world and how rare items are. Once a level 60 begins raiding they're purchases tend to be potions because their equipment is coming from these raids.

Games like Star Wars Galaxies and Vanguard's economies rely heavily on player crafting and player purchases. If these veteran players are purchasing cheap in game currency from IGE then too much of that currency is floating around and being spent. Because the currency is so cheap due to not enough of it leaving the in game economy more players may buy it.

I hope my explanation is easy to understand. If you have any questions please ask

[Atoyota]

Interesting, I'l have to read the debate.


If anything positive comes with Vanguard and trend reversal in MMO's in general, I do hope the secondary market is dealt with. At least in this game, and hopefully as an example for others that may come later.

Yes I've always known the stand Sigil has promised to take in regards to this, and it should be also interesting to see how successful they are in an item centric game, with other important possessions, such as houses and boats.

Characters are one thing but realestate sold outside the game in a cash market was one thing I saw in UO. I personally knew people that bought castles for $2k, and a mere house for $50 on Ebay.

Nothing I'd ever do, but in some cases i understood the convenience of it; rather than spending 8-12 hours looking for a location, just find one for sale and buy it with real money.

It's hard not to find a way to justify it when all you feel you are doing is saving some time and making the game more enjoyable.


But the kid that can't afford to spend money is left out, he has to work harder to realise his goals because he does'nt have an income, and may only be able to afford the monthly subscription.

The bottom line in secondary markets is it makes the game unfair for people with more money to spend than others. Adding a Real life element to a game that is supposed to be a seperate environment or escape. That's the issue.

Not that you have an inexperienced player with uber gear ruining your group experienece because he does'nt have any idea how to play. That's a side issue or a result...

What it does is make obtaining things like housing and ships more difficult for players that go about it as the game design intended. Insteead these things become less available because people with cash buy them up (reduce the availability and change the game economy by outside means)

So unless a game has the impact of this influence within it's design, it should be outlawed.

It's really not hard to understand, I hope Sigil can eliminate it from this game. It won't be easy, and it will probably be difficult to enforce, but not impossible.