[Sickpuppy]

This buglist will not be updated as of 14th April '07. Go here for the new, maintained, disciple, buglist thread.
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There's so many scattered threads about disciple bugs and things that need to be tweaked so I wanted to compile one big thread about it all.

The list is split into bugs that need to be fixed and tweaks that should be implemented starting with the most important first. Bugs are fact and tweaks are opinion so obviously if a lot of people disagree with or want something added to the tweak list I will change it. Hopefully people can just post in here when they find something wrong with the class instead of making a new thread about it.

Updated: 13:14 GMT 05th Apr '07

Bugs:

1. Fallen Petal and White Lotus - Their +heal buffs don't affect heal over time spells.
2. Soul Cutter - The threat reduction effect is either very small or non-existant.
3. Baiting Strike - Seems to have very little or no effect.
4. Feign Death - Sometimes when multiple mob Feign Deaths succeed you will be stuck in combat and some of the mobs will camp your corpse with a combat style animation.
5. Touch of Woe - When this skill is used it reduces the amount of XP gained when the mob dies (presumably because the source of the damage is the mob instead of the disciple).
6. Paralyzing Touch - This skill doesn't always light up after feint even when you have aggro on the mob. It always lights up when no other person is on the mob's aggro list.
7. Paralyzing Touch - Requires a weapon to be equipped.
8. Paralyzing Touch - Rank 2 stuns for 60 seconds (tooltip says 40s).
9. Paralyzing Sweep - Only stuns one mob.
10. Endowment of Balance - Deals damage back to the attacker but does not reduce the attackers attack by 50%.
11. Dissonant Bonds - When they are resisted, the player side of the bond still works but the mob side does not. This means that Leech's Grasp still gives the player endurance for example, but the debuff won't be active on the mob. It also means if a dissonant bond like Touch of the Ox is resisted it needs to be cancelled before it can be recast again. The resist message also displays twice in floating damage text.
12. Blooming Ridge Hand - Attacking a mob with the BRH debuff active on it causes the mob to generate heal aggro instead of the disciple. This can cause NPC wars.
13. Dissonant Bonds - Multiple bonds can sometimes be cast on the same target (I've managed up to 3). It's very buggy and unpredictable, though. Sometimes multiple bonds will cast on the same target fine, other times you get "You are already looting" messages. No condition or reproducability for casting 2+ bonds has been confirmed.
14. Finisher Bar - Sometimes a skill becomes available but you won't be able to see it on the finisher bar. One cause is when you try to cast an available advanced finisher during global cooldown. This causes the finisher bar to reset and not display the advanced finisher.
15. Astral Walk - Not all dungeons are flagged as dungeons for Astral Walk.
16. Blessed Wind and Concordant abilities - The heal amount is affected by crit. This can make the same level blessed wind tick for 50, 100, 200, 400 etc. It seems to be a seperate crit roll from the damage part.
17. Blessed Wind - Blessed Wind's heal part has infinite range within a chunk.
18. Dodge - Increases your chance to dodge _to_ 100%, instead of _by_ 100%(depending on level). Also stops auto-attack and gets cancelled when any ability is used.
19. Feign Death - FD cancels when you leave groups.
20. Counter-attacks - Sometimes when you dodge the counter-attack skills don't light up. They can still be cast even though they are greyed out on the client.
21. Shurikens - Always do the same damage regardless of what shuriken is equipped.
22. Wisdom of the Grasshopper - This buff doesn't give a buff status message in chat windows.
23. Symbol of Unity - Disappears if somebody uses it in combat, this should give an error message instead. Res stones also don't work when the player is in a different chunk (and they get consumed trying).
24. Shurikens - Get used up after you equip another type of shuriken. You can put them in ranged or ammo, however if you move them from one to the other there's a good chance it will start using them. (unconfirmed)
25. Falling Petals - Using a Staff as your main weapon, the animation for Falling Petals is either broken or unfinished.
26. Mindless Clutch - The tooltip is wrong. It says 576 energy every tick instead of 576 energy total (~38 per tick).
27. Touch of Woe - The tooltip isn't very clear. It says the mob takes damage on every attack, which makes it sound like it takes damage when someone attacks it rather than when it attacks someone.

Tweaks:

Temporarily removed.

[Zind]

Falling Petal does buff incoming heals, at least on yourself, but that buff is buggy in that it doesn't always give additional healing during its 5min duration.

The heal from Blessed Wind seems to be able to crit, though looking through my combat log it does not mention something like "critical heal for xxx". Using BW3, I see it heal for 74, 110, or 220 (the crit heal is pretty rare though).

Also, under Weapon Specialization, we have a listing for Hand Wraps, but currently no weapon will raise that skill. The Ulak / Claws works just fine though.

[Dashel]

Blessed wind seems to not heal even ourselves sometimes. I cant pinpoint when or why. This is a recent issue.

What is Keen Eye III and why did I just get it randomly today?

[Sickpuppy]

Originally Posted by Zind

Falling Petal does buff incoming heals, at least on yourself, but that buff is buggy in that it doesn't always give additional healing during its 5min duration.

Been testing it for the past hour or so and haven't managed to see any difference in my heals with and without the buff. I've changed it in the list anyway. Either way it's buggy as hell.

[Sickpuppy]

Originally Posted by Dashel

Blessed wind seems to not heal even ourselves sometimes. I cant pinpoint when or why. This is a recent issue.

What is Keen Eye III and why did I just get it randomly today?

It's learnt from mobs. It's a really nice skill but I think it's a bug that we can get it. There is lots of other skills you can learn from mobs at the moment too.

[QuidProQuo]

What do people think about Disciple damage?

I personally think its fine but a lot of people think its too high.. maybe lower critical strike damage some and increase average damage? This way we end up doing less damage overall but no so much that we can't defeat anything anymore.. but like I said before I personally think we are fine as far as damage goes.

What does everyone else think?

I agree about endowments they are by far the coolest part about playing a Disciple I think we should have more of them to manage.

[Sickpuppy]

Originally Posted by QuidProQuo

What do people think about Disciple damage?

I personally think its fine but a lot of people think its too high.. maybe lower critical strike damage some and increase average damage? This way we end up doing less damage overall but no so much that we can't defeat anything anymore.. but like I said before I personally think we are fine as far as damage goes.

What does everyone else think?

I agree about endowments they are by far the coolest part about playing a Disciple I think we should have more of them to manage.

There's no doubt that disciple damage is broken at the moment. As of level 32 I haven't found anyone who can outdamage me (obviously within reason - i'm talking about damage in an average fight). As a healer class that's pretty messed up. The ultimate fix for our damage problems would be:
Slightly decrease unarmed crit rate.
Slightly increase crit rate with weapons.
Slightly decrease finisher damage.

[Dashel]

I am hoping to start parsing my damage tonight or tomorrow. Maybe I can get a similar level monk to as well.

[flyingpenguin]

Originally Posted by Sickpuppy

There's no doubt that disciple damage is broken at the moment. As of level 32 I haven't found anyone who can outdamage me (obviously within reason - i'm talking about damage in an average fight). As a healer class that's pretty messed up. The ultimate fix for our damage problems would be:
Slightly decrease unarmed crit rate.
Slightly increase crit rate with weapons.
Slightly decrease finisher damage.

Now I am only lvl 14 at the moment, but most of the dps classes can take down mobs much faster than I can (as it should be). Disciples have a huge advantage in survivability, but we are healers....that should be true for all healers. In other words, we should be able to last a long time, much longer than dps classes. DPS = quick, high damage fights...if the fight goes on too long...they lose. Healers = slow burning fights.

There is another thread that goes quite a bit into detail as to why the crit rates for unarmed and armed should not be changed. It basicially boils down to right now you have a choice between armed and unarmed.

If you go armed, your dps will go up because of the additional crits. If you choose armed, then you get stats from the weapon. If you make the dps for unarmed the same as armed, then you have effectively removed the choice. Why choose to go bare handed when I can get the same goodies + bonuses to my stats?

I do not think that this should be changed at all. Weapons are best when you are in a group situation and you don't need dps. When solo, drop the weapon and go crazy.

If, after number crunching, devs find that the dps of a disciple is too high, then fine, lower our total dps (it should be on par with the other healer classes), but don't remove the difference between unarmed and armed. I like that both are viable.

[Dashel]

I agree with this:

Slightly decrease unarmed crit rate.
Slightly increase crit rate with weapons.
Slightly decrease finisher damage.

Baseline Disciple damage should lower than a monk by a good bit. If a monk is 100, disciple should be maybe a 70-80. From there I would like to see a choice: DPS Disciple, Healer Disciple, Well rounded utility Disciple.

[garath]

Originally Posted by Sickpuppy

Tweaks:

1. Harmonious Bonds should be castable on yourself - otherwise more of our spells useless in a solo situation and some of them useless in general (Inner Focus).
2. Weapons aren't an option because they have 1/10th of the damage output of bare hand fighting due to their relative low crit rate. The fix should be a balance of decreasing barehand damage and increasing weapon damage (via decereasing finisher damage and barehand crit rate and increasing weapon crit rate.)
3. We need many more endowments. Maybe one for threat reduction? One for damage? One that gives a Jin bonus?
4. Endowment of Mastery doesn't last long enough for the time and endurance cost to cast it.
5. Endowment of Balance has a very small effect for the time and endurance cost it takes to cast it.
6. Counterattacks cost far too much endurance. It seems like they're meant to be "bonus" attacks but 28 endurance for a low damage counterattack (Sun Fist) is way too high.
7. Favor of the Crow II has a very small increase over Favor of the Crow I. It should be more effective.
8. Touch of Woe's effect should be significantly increased or changed (it's useless when we have Leech's Grasp).
9. Celestial Breeze has a very long cast time and high mana cost. One of these should be reduced slightly.

Great bug list. I would also add that we no longer see Blessed Wind as a maintained spell (we used to prior to the energy fix) so if and when it ever works on someone else we will not know what the remaining duration is. Also, when effects like Touch of Woe or Leech's Grasp are resisted, it is still considered maintained but its not doing anything. We currently need 2 jin just to toggle it off (though I don't believe it USES the 2 jin to toggle off) until we can try it again.

For your tweaks list:

Harminous bonds - I think they are fine the way they are (bugs aside). Casting them on ourselves is a little counter-intuitive to the term 'bond'. Also, its not a bad thing at all to have group-only spells. We already solo very well. We really don't need bonds to work solo also.

Weapons and damage - I've talked about the weapons and crits in the Disciples and crits thread. Not up for typing it again. Needless to say I disagree with the need to adjust the damage of either significantly.

I agree with the rest of what you've said. Especially your thoughts on endowments.

[garath]

Also something else I've noticed is with FD. It doesn't seem to wipe aggro? With 1 or 2 exceptions it seems that the mobs that were attacking me when I feigned will either wander away or camp my corpse but ALL of them will reaggro and come running when I stand back up (usually 1 min later so I can FD again if necessary). Bug? Intentional?

[Sickpuppy]

Originally Posted by QuidProQuo

What do people think about Disciple damage?

I personally think its fine but a lot of people think its too high.. maybe lower critical strike damage some and increase average damage? This way we end up doing less damage overall but no so much that we can't defeat anything anymore.. but like I said before I personally think we are fine as far as damage goes.

What does everyone else think?

I agree about endowments they are by far the coolest part about playing a Disciple I think we should have more of them to manage.

Originally Posted by garath

Also something else I've noticed is with FD. It doesn't seem to wipe aggro? With 1 or 2 exceptions it seems that the mobs that were attacking me when I feigned will either wander away or camp my corpse but ALL of them will reaggro and come running when I stand back up (usually 1 min later so I can FD again if necessary). Bug? Intentional?

Mobs have only reaggrod me if I'm within aggro range when I get up. Also, Leech's Grasp still works as normal even if it's resisted. I'm not sure about Touch of Woe as I never use that bond.

[Demonix]

I disagree with the ideas of:

Slightly decrease unarmed crit rate.
Slightly increase crit rate with weapons.
Slightly decrease finisher damage.

One thing that I have mentioned before will fix all of this. Add a 1min recast to Falling Petal and leave the rest as it is. Having a huge crit rate on fists won't help nearly as much without being able to spam Falling Petal all the time and the DPS on fists would drop to around that of weapons, and most likely lower. Finisher damage could be left the same but since it would be more spread out that damage would be more in line. Also, having a lower crit rate with weapons but higher average DPS would make the weapons a much more viable option without nerfing finisher dmg for weapon wielders.

In beta almost all rangers used daggers because they could spam Windsong. They were doing more damage than intended and there was no reason to use any other weapon in their mainhand. Now that there is a 1min recast on Windsong you see a LOT more rangers using swords in their mainhand because critting more often but doing less dmg with a dagger no longer helps them. It's ONE change that would fix almost everything that is wrong with disciples' damage and would balance out all of their weapon choices.

[Sickpuppy]

Originally Posted by garath

Weapons and damage - I've talked about the weapons and crits in the Disciples and crits thread. Not up for typing it again. Needless to say I disagree with the need to adjust the damage of either significantly.

Don't get me wrong, I love our dps just as much as anyone else - I just don't think the highest DPS class in the game should be a healer. A Monk, for example, is like a disciple without heals. Why should Monks do lower damage than Disciples? Sorcerers are meant to (as in most games) have the highest burst DPS. So why is it I out DPS them? Either we do too much damage or every other class is gimped. I'd rather have our damage straightened out now than have the devs nerf us into uselessness in 2 months when every other class complains about our DPS.

[garath]

Originally Posted by Sickpuppy

Mobs have only reaggrod me if I'm within aggro range when I get up. Also, Leech's Grasp still works as normal even if it's resisted. I'm not sure about Touch of Woe as I never use that bond.

I have been very far away and had mobs reaggro me. For example, I ran out of a dungeon using sprint and my racial 10 seconds of dodging, I got outside and quite a bit away from the dungeon before I was about to die so I feigned. I waited almost 2 minutes (I got a drink). Only one mob was left on me but when I stood up I incured aggro from another 4 mobs in the dungeon.I found a couple posts in General about monks having the same issue so I suppose its a general FD thing.

Are you sure Leech's grasp is still working even when it is resisted? One, I don't see any benefit from it (where I can definately see a benefit when it lands) and two, when the fight ends it doesn't break. However, if it isn't resisted it breaks when the mob dies like its supposed to.

[garath]

Originally Posted by Sickpuppy

Don't get me wrong, I love our dps just as much as anyone else - I just don't think the highest DPS class in the game should be a healer. A Monk, for example, is like a disciple without heals. Why should Monks do lower damage than Disciples? Sorcerers are meant to (as in most games) have the highest burst DPS. So why is it I out DPS them? Either we do too much damage or every other class is gimped. I'd rather have our damage straightened out now than have the devs nerf us into uselessness in 2 months when every other class complains about our DPS.

Well damage with fists vs weapons was the focus of my arguement in the other thread.

However, damage vs other classes: Honestly the only class I can speak with authority on is bard since I duo with one pretty regularly. He outdamages me. If we each take the same mob type and start attacking, he'll kill his mob when mine has a quarter left. Perhaps that is a little much considering we are a healer. The only fix I would suggest is like Demonix suggested - put Falling petals on a 1 min refresh like concordant hand. Lowering our damage too much will put us in a poor state vs the other healers. We have few buffs, no ranged casting ability and poor utility. Melee damage and FD is what sets us apart from the other healing classes.

[flyingpenguin]

Originally Posted by Demonix

I disagree with the ideas of:

Slightly decrease unarmed crit rate.
Slightly increase crit rate with weapons.
Slightly decrease finisher damage.

One thing that I have mentioned before will fix all of this. Add a 1min recast to Falling Petal and leave the rest as it is. Having a huge crit rate on fists won't help nearly as much without being able to spam Falling Petal all the time and the DPS on fists would drop to around that of weapons, and most likely lower. Finisher damage could be left the same but since it would be more spread out that damage would be more in line. Also, having a lower crit rate with weapons but higher average DPS would make the weapons a much more viable option without nerfing finisher dmg for weapon wielders.

I don't think I could disagree with this more...if hands are equal in damage to weapons, why would anyone ever choose to go unarmed?

Right now there is a reason to do both. Unarmed for solo, armed for groups.

Also, in reply to another post, I have grouped with several monks and they hands down whup their targets faster than I do (as they should). We are definitely no the highest dps in the game (and again we shouldn't be).

[Sickpuppy]

Originally Posted by Demonix

One thing that I have mentioned before will fix all of this. Add a 1min recast to Falling Petal and leave the rest as it is.

I don't even use falling petal any more. You get a much better finisher at a little later level (30 i think) called palm of discord (400% weapon damage + 269-287). It doesn't trigger white lotus but it gives a better damage output and reduced endurance use by using it instead of falling petal. I don't think your "fix" would make any difference really.

[Sickpuppy]

Originally Posted by flyingpenguin

Right now there is a reason to do both. Unarmed for solo, armed for groups.

I've never used weapons for more than 5 minutes during my time playing this game and I group 90% of the time. There really is no point at the moment.