[Magnus_Olsson]

I have been in a raiding guild for 7 years in Everquest 1 and i know its kinda cool to have 60 members roaming around and killing mobs, new content in Everquest many had their assigned role even if you had a few backups also.

Though i was also a officer for those 7 years and i spent more time trying to solve conflicts and grief than i actually did playing the game. So trust me when i say it, 24 is just fine and great!

Yes you have a point when you mention more guilds with no instances might cause problems, but lets hope there isnt a mob everyone just need to kill that spawns every 7 days like in EQ.

Beside that if we had 40 as a raid limit even my 8800 system whould probably send me a postcard from Bahamas if i tried to raid :P

[Isobel]

You have to admit there are times when racing against another raid group for a spawn is exilerating.

[Naelael]

Having come from a raid guild in EQ1 I can see both sides of this. There are a select group of guilds that have the numbers to pull off massive raids for super high level content, the number in reality is very small. I remember waiting HOURS for things to get done because people werent logged on, etc. Note: this didnot always happen, and once we got up there, it never happened. But it many people would be doing other things while raiding was going on. Their toon would be there, but they would be in tells, watching a movie, TV, hell many people even playing another game on a second computer. As a SK in a high level raid guild, more often than not my job was to... well... Follow around mobs pretending I was useful. The only actual use of having a massive amount of people was so that we could compensate for the mass amount of HPs mobs have in the game. You could take out 2 palis and 2 SKs, replace them with one tricked out rogue and its possible the DPS would go up. As Tag said, the bulk of the players in these raids are just "cogs in a machine"

Now onto the limit in Vanguard... If you're going to be a massive raid guild, which there will be some in Vanguard no doubt, whats wrong with 2 seprate raids going on? You could even staggar the time by an hour or two in order to account for people who are in different time zones.

I welcome the idea of being able to raid with friends, and not having to recruit a bunch of random strangers every time a new expansion is released.

[Magnus_Olsson]

Originally Posted by Isobel

You have to admit there are times when racing against another raid group for a spawn is exilerating.

Absolutly, I was in a Euro guild on my US EQ server and we beat many other guilds if we where online early after patch :P But its also alot of greif I remember when I wanted my epic 1.0 for my enchanter and needed to kill Casic in Fear and it was perma killed and spawned once every 7 day. But I got it finaly and after that they changed that so you didnt need to kill him and everyone ran around with a epic :P

[Baseline]

I also like bigger raids. 24 as the biggest possible raid leaves something to be desired. I think there should be at least a few 36+, preferably 40ish player raids.

[Shawnsan]

Originally Posted by Isobel

You have to admit there are times when racing against another raid group for a spawn is exilerating.

Yes. At exactly ONE point .. when YOUR group is the one with the final claim and the win.

Any other time its sucks .. kinda like losing the superbowl in football.

Chicago :Hey we got to the superbowl!!!

So what? Indianapolis won and you didn't.

I do like the smaller size as this means less drama queens. Maybe we can corral all the drama queens / loot whores into a few small guilds

[Tagad]

We don't have any plans to raise the cap in the near future.

Perhaps people should actually get to raiding level, try it out in Vanguard, and then we can have a meaingful discussion about 24 man raids in Vanguard vs other sizes.



~Tagad

[Thee]

Originally Posted by Tagad

Perhaps people should actually get to raiding level, try it out in Vanguard, and then we can have a meaingful discussion about 24 man raids in Vanguard vs other sizes.

Sounds like a plan, Tagad.

Hope you are not still working over there at this time. It must be really late in the US by now.

[Leeonal]

I'm not dissing the 24 limit until I see how it works in VG. But previous experience of MMOs showed me that 24 man raids sometimes tend to lack the needed complexity so I understand why some people are a bit concerned.

30-36 would be a nice limit, there is a big difference with 1 or 2 groups more. It's good to see though that we won't be seeing any mass raids like in PoP in EQ1.

So it remains to be seen if 24 is good, maybe it was the construction of the raid content that made previous 24 raid encounters less exciting, maybe it was the raid size.

[Morden]

Originally Posted by strykr619

Majority of these people obviously didn't raid in eq2 with there 24 player raid limit, not only did it LIMIT the type of encounters you can have, it became even more elitist because a VAST majority of the raid guilds wouldn't recruit past 30-32 people....

You're probably right that the majority of people in this thread didn't raid in EQ2. I'd bet the majority raided in EQ though and plenty would have experienced the pain of 72.

I believe huge raids like the ones in PoP limited encounters more because they always had to be designed with "what happens if they zerg it?" in mind. You could always add more DPS, more healers. I think a size of 24 puts the emphasis on skill. Your DPS is limited, your healing is limited, what else is going to constitute success or failure? It's down to the designers really.

Surely if raid guilds recruit less people then there will just be more raid guilds?

Originally Posted by strykr619

36-42 player raids would have been a lot more desirable ( not too many yet not too few ) , But 24 is just way too small... Then again what do I know right? I am just an MMO player and not the almighty MMORPG game designer...

Subjective. I am just an MMO player who raided for 4 or 5 years at everything from 40 up to 72+ man raids and I think 24 will be much better.

Originally Posted by strykr619

No offense Tagad, just because what Sigil has seen the bad in what happens with large guilds who raid in the past doesn't mean it will ALWAYS happen, i have been a member of a raid guild that had 80 + people before and we were all like family even then.... What ruined it for large guilds wasn't the fact that you were just a "tool " in a raid machine, it was the few who were loot whores, drama queens and troublemakers in those guilds... also majority of the players that do raid know what they are in for ( long gaming nights with long fights/encounters etc etc ) so i highly doubt we feel like its a job . ( unless yall make raiding a job in this game with garbage encounters, loot, scripts etc etc ) ...

So far you have done exceptionally well with the game, dont drop the ball with this choice....

Raiders have typically been the vocal minority in most games. I think a 24 man size will open the content to many more people and it won't feel like a job to anyone if the encounters are done right.

A small size means that guilds don't have as much pressure to maintain such a large force and can boot loot whores, drama queens and troublemakers without much thought, surely that's better for them?

[Faite]

Originally Posted by Morden

You're probably right that the majority of people in this thread didn't raid in EQ2. I'd bet the majority raided in EQ though and plenty would have experienced the pain of 72.

I believe huge raids like the ones in PoP limited encounters more because they always had to be designed with "what happens if they zerg it?" in mind. You could always add more DPS, more healers. I think a size of 24 puts the emphasis on skill. Your DPS is limited, your healing is limited, what else is going to constitute success or failure? It's down to the designers really.

Surely if raid guilds recruit less people then there will just be more raid guilds?

Subjective. I am just an MMO player who raided for 4 or 5 years at everything from 40 up to 72+ man raids and I think 24 will be much better.

Raiders have typically been the vocal minority in most games. I think a 24 man size will open the content to many more people and it won't feel like a job to anyone if the encounters are done right.

A small size means that guilds don't have as much pressure to maintain such a large force and can boot loot whores, drama queens and troublemakers without much thought, surely that's better for them?

I disagree with the top quote, in EQ2 the guilds were not more elitist due to 24 man raids, in fact more guilds did raiding because of it.

No way, thats just false.(it did not pick up the right person, Morden didnt say that hehe)

[SageGaspar]

Originally Posted by strykr619

Majority of these people obviously didn't raid in eq2 with there 24 player raid limit, not only did it LIMIT the type of encounters you can have, it became even more elitist because a VAST majority of the raid guilds wouldn't recruit past 30-32 people....

It actually opened up raiding to a ton more people. Sure maybe HA wasn't recruiting a lot, but who the hell cares about HA when you could just grab 24 people from your guild and head into Lyceum or Labs or whatever.

EQ2 realized that raiding didn't have to be an exercise in tedium for anyone but the uber1337 and frankly I hope Vanguard took away the same lesson. For too long there were people that did everything else and people that raided. There's no reason raiding, i.e. encounters built for more than one group, have to be the sole domain of a special type of player.

[Belce]

By placing a limit on the number of people that can take part in a raid you make it better to design the encounter itself as well. Also I think with the way it is done here, the 24 limit will just be what you can group together and benefit from in game tools like raid chat.

By limiting raid size my experience in EQ2 is that it made it more accessible to raid for many more guilds than before. Guilds that wished to remain small could do so and take part in raid events if they wished. It is easier to get 24 people together at the same tiome for one of these than 36 or 48 is.

[Molpadia]

Originally Posted by Tagad

We don't have any plans to raise the cap in the near future.

Perhaps people should actually get to raiding level, try it out in Vanguard, and then we can have a meaingful discussion about 24 man raids in Vanguard vs other sizes.



~Tagad

Amen.

Let's pick this thread up after someone has actually RAIDED. Discussing 16 vs 24 vs 80 is kind of pointless until you do a raid. I do not ass-u+me anything! I never liked the uber l33t raiding 24/7 guilds and am more than willing to give the 24 person limit a good trial. Done right it could be much more fun.

[Joodah]

Originally Posted by strykr619

36-42 player raids would have been a lot more desirable ( not too many yet not too few ) , But 24 is just way too small...

No, it isn't. Kudos to Sigil for having some sense in their heads and not catering to the Wow crowd

[Jolt]

Originally Posted by Tagad

We have posted on this subject since early in beta. 24 people, four groups, is the raid size.

We want to be able to create content where each player has to play a part and doesnt simply feel like a cog in a giant machine that has no effect on the real outcome.

If we had a raid cap of 40 players, some people would complains. If we had a raid cap of 80 players, someone would complain.

In regard to raid size in relation to guilds, on a previous project, we saw massive guild bloat when encounters were tuned or created for more than 30ish people. Many times the guilds would simply explode in numbers just so they could keep up with the content - it stopped being about playing with a bunch of cool people you knew and more about the "job" of being in a raiding guild.

~Tagad

I disagree with the above, and your lack of foresight troubles me.

First off, lets start with the overall size. If you recall a certain encounter in SSeru, LIS himself, casted a nasty AoE Dot. You need to stay out of this, so you sent in your tank, kept healers at a distance, and let the tank beat down on him. Jobs: CH Rotation, everybody defined peice. One person fails, and we die ; Tank, stay alive, and taunt like hell.

Now, that this point, we're getting warm, and the damage dealers are starting to throw in their jazz. We did what we called our "Nuke rotation". Each Wizard/Mage tied themselves into each other, similar to a CH chain, that basically ensured constant damage, but helped the wizards space themselves as to not overaggro. Jobs: Nuke, carefully, and watch your rotation times to ensure maximum effeciency.

Normally, this process was enough to finish him off, including Rangers with bows. At around 25%, we allowed Beastlords, and Necromancers to summon pets and send them in, as well as Shamans. Dispellers stayed on the dispells incase we were ever hit.

Blah blah blah, smeeh smaah..

Bottom line, everybody had a job. I've said it before, and I'll say it again : A well done event can take a huge 72 person raid and make each person have to hit their marks and carry their weight. What it also does, is it allows a little more give. One person's screwup ( unless it's the tank, or healer ), dosen't have as severe an effect on the raid. These things shouldn't be a complete nightmare, but a challenge.

You know what, people are complaining, and people will always complain, and thats true. But we also do it for a reason. Dismissing us as blind complaining fools is both ridiculous and a bit discouraging as a consumer.

Now, onto the game effect. Think about it, and it's pretty simple:

1) You have a NON INSTANCED world. You are going to have many many raid forces running around, killing a lot of mobs. If you are trying to breed cockblocking, bickering and sour competition, you'll succeed. Part of having a big raid force, was the consolidation that accompanied it.

2) The best part, is the opening of the gap, between a casual and hardcore player. A small raid force can gear a raid force quicker, get keys etc. etc, as well as always have a raid force available, assuming they keep their numbers at an acceptable level .

What bothers me is the circumstance. This mechanic, I feel, caters to the heavy raiding guild, more than it does the "core gamer". You were a noted as a good friend to a significant raid guild. I feel as if this is something that goes to them, not to the generality of persons.

Perhaps I am missing the logic behind 36,48,54 person raids.

[Belce]

One of the things they have here for this is the quest item in a dungeon that allows you to generate a golden encounter for you. Only your group or raid can engage these targets and it allows you to go through the dungeon with only yours content, plus other stuff as you may encounter. The zone isn't instanced, but the encounter is for you only. As no one has really done these yet, it is premature to suggest that guilds would have to adopt the same approach as EQ required for epic content.

[strykr619]

Originally Posted by Joodah

No, it isn't. Kudos to Sigil for having some sense in their heads and not catering to the Wow crowd

Lol when did i EVER mention WoW in my discussion ( im an eq/eq2 player btw never liked WoW, even after the month i gave it )

Tagad, i woud LOVE to see what Sigil is going to different from SoE considering 24 player raid content... but dont expect people not to disapprove of the raid number since i have had the option to experiance this in eq2 and it was lame over all ( had some good fights like the 3 princes , Djinn Master and Harla Dar, but some lame ones as well like Lyceum ) .... To this day thou the most fun i ever had raiding was ToV in velious....

Lets see then what kind of content yall make that can be done with 24.... prove me wrong and i will take back my disdain for 24 player raid limits.....

[Vaedar]

Originally Posted by Jolt

1) You have a NON INSTANCED world. You are going to have many many raid forces running around, killing a lot of mobs. If you are trying to breed cockblocking, bickering and sour competition, you'll succeed. Part of having a big raid force, was the consolidation that accompanied it.

QFE

To the rest, I only played WoW for a week but I could imagine what a raid would be like considering that subscriber base. *shudder*

I think Jolt and I are on the same page here. Some, no, I would say THE most fun i've had in any mmo was raiding with a large guild. Raiding with 60+ cool people is a lot more fun than raiding with 24 cool people. Raids can be designed with that number of people in mind (Time?) and be very exciting and worthwhile. The 24 person limit just lowers the bar so that average Joe can participate. What fun is there in doing something everyone else can do? That's when it becomes a job instead of an adventure.

[SageGaspar]

Originally Posted by strykr619

i have had the option to experiance this in eq2 and it was lame over all ( had some good fights like the 3 princes , Djinn Master and Harla Dar, but some lame ones as well like Lyceum ) .... To this day thou the most fun i ever had raiding was ToV in velious....

Harla Dar was eh for me... straight DPS burn. Gates, Courts, and Spirits of the Lost were fun zones with a neat crawl through them. I liked the DPS regulating idea behind Pedestal and that turtle in FD. Echoes of Time intercepting the adds was an enjoyable little setup. I liked the Splitpaw ones too, the split group one where you have to solve the puzzles and Acts of War were interesting too. There's a couple other little mini ones that all had their own tricks but I'm forgetting at the moment.

I have to admit the KoS raids bored me more (KoS as a whole bored me more) and I didn't stick around to raid in EoF but you don't need more than 24 people to build interesting raids.

I also don't think they're going to have cockblocks any more than in any other non-instanced game. Does it look like the server populations are high enough that there's gonna be a lot of hardcore raid guilds around for the duration? Do we even know how much raid content is in? This is stupid speculation based on pretty much nothing. If you have your heart set on adopting raiding as your primary playstyle in VG or you're thinking raiding is going to suck in VG at this point, you're being pretty foolish on both counts because we have no idea what raiding is like.