[coercion]

I'm a full-out Psionicist fanboy so I hate to have make posts like this - but I figure if things are talked about and debated plenty then there's less chance of being over-nerfed when the time eventually comes.

I had a 28 Psi in beta, and my current live psi is 27 - absolutely love the class so don't see this as someone intentionally trying to bait the nerfbat.

Thought Thief. Back in beta it was basically useless. It would pretty much drain your mana with any spell cast - the only one that seemed to give you anything was thought pulse (the old finisher version), and even that was temperamental. Well, it's been fixed. And then some.

Using it I can regen my mana from 0 to 100 in about 30 seconds (if that) inside combat at absolutely no cost besides the time taken to do it. I can go into Phrenic Rage, burn through all 5000 points of my energy in 30 more seconds, then spend a further 30 seconds regening to full and doing it all again.

Now, I love the idea of the spell, especially if we get an energy-transfer spell again. But right now it just makes energy completely trivial for us.

As far as balancing goes... Well, the thing about Psionicists is they're a proper risk vs reward class. For that reason I'm really not a fan of limitations; but rather having the difficulty curve raised. Ie. soft caps rather than hard caps. Like how in beta it was cake to charm 4-dot reds, and now the resist rates and break chances are much higher it's much more balanced; it's still quite possible to do, but far more risky. Much better than simply reducing the effectiveness of charm. So, perhaps rather than simply saying "drop the effectiveness of thought thief", maybe some spice could be added.

Add a health drain to the concentration, similar to blood mage's FoG?
a resistance vulnerability or two, like astral?
a snare?
aggro multiplier?
long recast on changes back to another form?

Another thing is that it seems to drain mana even if the mob shouldnt really have any, at least from my limited testing so far. I think some mobs should give very little, while others have a large pool to draw from (ie. fighters vs casters).

I don't know, food for thought perhaps.

[Tarishya]

I'm not there yet so i cant tell about Thought Thief but i can say some things about my level 20.

When i get in groups, if i try to add DPS to the group appart my dot, i end up eating food to keep up the pace of the group, i have to keep my mana "in case of" something goes wrong. If i start to nuke like a DPS class should do, the group wait for me. This is not viable, or there is something i do bad.

In the group, i see the sorcerer spamming without mana problem, the healers are doing very well in regards to energy and i'm really the only one to get problems IF i want to nuke away. I have 3200 mana at level 20, i have all the buffs up, and i tried both in astral and rage concentrations. Mana goes down very fast when starting to nuke.

What am i doing wrong ?

If Thought Thief takes me on par with my friends regarding mana, well, that's a good thing to me.

[Puuma]

Personally I LOVE thought thief. It was well worth the trouble of sneaking around Khal to get a "boat" to Thestra.
Tarishya, I can group, and nuke most mobs, but 2 or 3 nukes per mob is plenty, You need to weigh your energy requirements vs the time it takes to kill the mob. Why burn the huge cost of compression sphere if your group drops the mob in 20 seconds? You are better off nuking it twice near the end. If you are in a fast pulling and fast killing group, Comp Sphere is of no use. If you are fighting a nice 4 or 5 dot, then drop your DoT's watch for adds and relax. The meat shields will do their jobs. Ultimately you have to choose your role, My guild knows that I am a DPS caster with crowd control ability. We have 2 other Psi's for mana battery uses. BUT once you get thought thief, you can stand in phenic rage and nuke mobs down to your hearts content, then switch to TT, nuke your energy back, rage, TT, rage, TT wash rinse repeat.

[coercion]

Obviously, I LOVE it too... Just like I'd LOVE an ability that lets us do 500000 damage for 10 energy... But I also don't want to be playing a class so overpowered that absolutely no thought has to be paid to energy management. Right now we essentially have infinite energy, with faster-than-resting combat regen.

[Puuma]

See I don't think that we are overpowered. It's not like when you are blasting away while in TT you aren't drawing agro, because you are. (I learned that last night.) You have to consider the fact that maybe you and I are better than average gamers who have good grasp of our class and it's finer points. I almost guarantee that people new to the genre are not taking every advantage that we see.

Not to say that I don't see your point. I do. But it's not like we are Disciples or Rangers. When they go to fix a class we are (hopefully) pretty far down on the list.

[coercion]

Well, on this particular point I don't see how thought thief & spamming mental blast requires skill. That's the thing, I don't really have a problem with a class being "potentially overpowering", as long as that potential is very hard to reach. For example, solo'ing the gnomes at A/G around level27-28 - extremely difficult, but possible. One person ran past me the other day and was instantly having a fit over how overpowered the psionicist must be for being able to take on 3x lvl30 4-dots at once, completely disregarding how many deaths and how many hours I'd spent practicing, as well as how often, still, it all goes wrong and I have to run for my life. On the other hand, spamming mental blast in TT takes about as much skill as, well, spamming mental blast normally - yet it's incredibly powerful.

But okay, there are some classes that may perhaps be more "accessibly overpowered" than us. I just think it's better to get this stuff out early, in a reasonable fashion, rather than waiting for all the masses with huge misconceptions about the class to make a load of irrational whine posts for the devs to see, and possibly act on.

I was pondering Thought Thief myself the other day, and you're right, you can regen all of your mana very quickly. It didn't occur to me that that was a bad thing, necessarily. It was just another thing that reminded me of an EQ chanter. Enchanters always had mana to spare, IMO, but their skill and challenge lie in other areas, such as keeping a handle on multiple mobs. It does seem that Thought Thief has an aggro multiplier already, though. But it could be more.

I suppose overall I would not have an issue with increasing the risk of using that form, as you suggest. What about having an aggro multiplier continually increasing each cast? That way, if you keep endlessly sucking energy from the mob, the more likely you are to permanently draw the mob's aggro?

[Puuma]

Yeah, I get some looks when i am pulling 3 or 4 mobs and handling my business. But I understand what you are saying, it takes practice and timing to learn the tricks of the trade. I was holding the spider pit in CIS camping Narachnia for my shoulders when some necro (of all classes) commented on my solo tactics. He wasn't flaming, just very complimentary. It's not the gnomes at A/G but it was a start for me to learn. The thing he didn't see was how many times i had to run naked from the alter back to the pit. Lol

You are doing 4 dots? Again I ask what the hell am I doing wrong, can you post your tactics or send them to me at PuumaSuuprema@hotmail.com?

[Otterley]

The original post was thoughtful and a pleasure to read. Keep it up.

[coercion]

Originally Posted by Nólaquen

I was pondering Thought Thief myself the other day, and you're right, you can regen all of your mana very quickly. It didn't occur to me that that was a bad thing, necessarily. It was just another thing that reminded me of an EQ chanter. Enchanters always had mana to spare, IMO, but their skill and challenge lie in other areas, such as keeping a handle on multiple mobs. It does seem that Thought Thief has an aggro multiplier already, though. But it could be more.

Enchanters still had to manage their mana big-time though. I only played one up to 60 back around kunark/SoV so maybe they got some all-powerful thought thief spell too since then, but back then half of the skill of being a chanter was being efficient. You had to manage your mana like it was the most valuable resource on the planet. You'd set aside a certain amount for keeping the melee's hasted, as well as a bit more for clarities. Then you'd have a nice chunk of mana reserve strictly for emergencies when a lot of mezzing was going to be needed. A bit extra if you're using charm too. Anything spare you'd use on slows, dps etc, keeping the tempo so that you weren't dumping all your debuffs and dps on one mob and then completely sitting out the fight for the next one.

Yes, there was skill and challenge in other areas, most obviously and famously in the crowd controlling and charming. But the most skillful chanters out there would be perfect at CC and charming while at the same time be absolutely efficient with their mana, making sure they always had the mana they needed when it was needed. It was just an extra dimension of depth that required mastering, and it's a dimension that's been missing from Vanguard - mostly due to the inconsistent in-combat / out-combat regen rates, but now also (for Psi's) largely due to thought thief.

I never cared as much as I'd like to about mana efficiency in Vanguard. It's always been a case of "Well I could save some mana by using my low-dps spells here, but there again if I just blast with the inefficient spells then I can end combat sooner to get max regen rates". But my energy levels still meant something. Since getting thought thief, my care for mana efficiency has completely disappeared. In fact, as someone who likes to play their class right to the limits of its potential, I find the path I take (to be most efficient) has actually become the path of greatest energy inefficiency. My typical spell-dps now comes from switching to Phrenic, dropping down all 3 dots, then spamming mental blast / thought pulse combo (mental blast, thought pulse, mental blast during thought pulse cooldown, rinse repeat) to burn through my mana, then quickly filling up and doing it all again. Am I the only person who feels there's something wrong with this being the most efficient strategy?

The bottom line is that thought thief makes energy have little/no value. And that's a Bad Thing.

You are doing 4 dots? Again I ask what the hell am I doing wrong, can you post your tactics or send them to me at PuumaSuuprema@hotmail.com?

I'm slowly churning out a psi guide at the moment, which'll focus pretty heavily on charm tactics. Will let you know when it's done.

[Puuma]

Originally Posted by coercion

I'm slowly churning out a psi guide at the moment, which'll focus pretty heavily on charm tactics. Will let you know when it's done.

Sweet, because I got TORE UP this week trying to charm chain 4 dots. I never laughed so hard at dying in all my life. My necro buddy was there watching me practice and chiming in with the occasional fear so I could evac or run away. Other guild members were listening to us on Vent and fun was had by all. (Many were just happy that it slowed my leveling down so they could catch up.)

I bow to you, sir. You are a better Charmer than I. So I will go back to my measly 3 dots or multi-pull 2 dots and leave you to it. But thanks for putting the possibility in my head.

/salute

Originally Posted by coercion

...stuff about eq chanter...

Theft of Thought (ToT)...that was pre-Velious, wasn't it? Can't remember now. There was a method to draw mana from a mob, but it wasn't as powerful as Thought Thief. I think someone mentioned already that in VG it seems you can suck energy from mobs that don't have any to begin with, that is a delta from ToT. Also, and I was wondering last night if this was really even intended or whether it is a bug, but in VG's Thought Thief, you can cast dots to basically cause a large energy-over-time regen as well as nukes to get the big chunks of energy regen, AND at the same time stack "real" damage-dealing dots. But, I will say that I still manage to run out of energy and I suspect it'll get much worse at 30 with resurgence. At least in EQ, that was the responsibility of the necro rather than chanter.

Originally Posted by coercion

In fact, as someone who likes to play their class right to the limits of its potential, I find the path I take (to be most efficient) has actually become the path of greatest energy inefficiency.

Yep, I'm doing the same. Burn it to the ground before it has much opportunity to hurt anybody. Even with all the similarities, we probably shouldn't compare it to how an EQ chanter played, though. Maybe the design intent was not to have to worry as much about energy as a psionicist (at least, worrying about running out and being completely useless until it regened on its own). We do have to worry about energy, but we're given pretty powerful tools to resolve the situation in-combat. But I do agree with you...with Thought Thief the way it is now, I expect I will never encounter a situation where I am truly energy-limited. Unlike a healer or other arcane caster, for example.

[coercion]

True, ToT was an undeniably useful spell. But if I recall correctly, it would generally return about 20m at most (and would give nothing from non-casters), and also had a hefty cooldown.

To be honest, I think I'd rather just have something similar here. I mean, right now, thought thief is only used in conjunction with mental blast. DoTs have no effect (although a mana drain over time would be very nice), and our other nukes drain very little or no energy. The reason for making TT a concentration is to add more strategic depth, surely. So, if it's going to be in-game as a concentration rather than as a one-off long-recast ability, it needs to have a)some form of cost/penalty for use and b)multiple different options in its use.

[Tarishya]

Originally Posted by coercion

True, ToT was an undeniably useful spell. But if I recall correctly, it would generally return about 20m at most (and would give nothing from non-casters), and also had a hefty cooldown.

To be honest, I think I'd rather just have something similar here. I mean, right now, thought thief is only used in conjunction with mental blast. DoTs have no effect (although a mana drain over time would be very nice), and our other nukes drain very little or no energy. The reason for making TT a concentration is to add more strategic depth, surely. So, if it's going to be in-game as a concentration rather than as a one-off long-recast ability, it needs to have a)some form of cost/penalty for use and b)multiple different options in its use.

DoTs do have an effect on Thought Thief.

I just got it yesterday and i find it perfect the way it is right now. NOW i can blast being in groups and add some dps, not just stick some dots, a single blast and keep my mana in case of.

[coercion]

Really? Stacking all 3 of my dots seems to do nothing for me, will have to test that more.

That just makes TT even more powerful than I originally argued, then, as you can drop DoTs in TT then switch to PR for massively inefficient damage.

I still don't understand why there's only a couple of other people who see the problem with all this. It's making the game far too easy for us.

[Tarishya]

Originally Posted by coercion

I still don't understand why there's only a couple of other people who see the problem with all this. It's making the game far too easy for us.

No it's not. You have refresh time on your dots, so if you put your dot in TT stance, you'll barely be able to put them for damage, unless you like to loose mana.

This stance does perfectly what it's intended for, avoid other people in the group waiting for your mana and being able to dps in groups with more than 2 little dots.

Pull, you mez, you dps, switch stance, regen mana on the last mob alive from that pull while the group destroy it, and continue to pull with no downtime. If you look carefully, other caster have ways to regen mana too, and quickly, why not us ?

I play with druids, bloodmage, sorcerers, clerics and disciples, and before i get TT i was the only one low on mana and i was the only one to eat after some big pulls WHILE not being able to DPS as much as those same classes (including the healers...)

Solo, TT doesnt bring much to the table, you gain some time, but not that much.

I dont find it overpowered at all personnally, i find i'm on par with other casters regarding mana.

You'll need to bring some solid examples where you find it overpowered, because as it is right now, i dont really see. Maybe kitting a 4-5 dots for an hour with that ? well maybe, in that case, simply limit the mana you can gain from a mob and poof, no more overpower

[Surtur55]

Originally Posted by Tarishya

In the group, i see the sorcerer spamming without mana problem...

God, I wish that were true.

I don't know what I'd do about mana if there was no Psi in my static, feeding me mana. I can drain my mana quite fast, although the 2nd rank of fire barrier does help quite a bit.

My group fights a lot of stuff that is red/purple so I would assume that plays a part in my mana issues, due to longer fights and resists.

Anyways, I love psi's.

[Tarishya]

Originally Posted by Surtur55

My group fights a lot of stuff that is red/purple so I would assume that plays a part in my mana issues, due to longer fights and resists.

That's a problem for many casters i think

[coercion]

Originally Posted by Tarishya

You'll need to bring some solid examples where you find it overpowered, because as it is right now, i dont really see. Maybe kitting a 4-5 dots for an hour with that ? well maybe, in that case, simply limit the mana you can gain from a mob and poof, no more overpower

Like I say, the overpowering thing - to me - is that we can now spam all our most inefficient spells with little care. THAT seems overpowering, because spells are made inefficient for a reason. Inefficient spells should be there for emergencies, where a bit of extra downtime from having to regen more mana is favorable to the group wipe that would happen if the extra dps wasn't kicked out.

What happened to the days of careful casting, of managing your energy and not wasting it? Since when did spamming all our most deadly spells ad-infinitum throughout a battle become "the best strategy"? Because that just doesn't seem very thoughtful at all. I find no satisfaction in being able to spam spells under the priority of finishers -> thought pulse -> mental blast, a trained monkey could do that.

Just like if you were given an infinite amount of money in real life. How much would you waste? How much would you waste compared with someone who had a finite amount? And who would have to think more carefully about how they spend their money?

I just feel like Vanguard is the kind of game that should be encouraging thoughtful gameplay, rather than wasteful gameplay.

[Tarishya]

Originally Posted by coercion

Like I say, the overpowering thing - to me - is that we can now spam all our most inefficient spells with little care. THAT seems overpowering, because spells are made inefficient for a reason.

What if that reason is because we can regen mana ? What would be overpowered is efficient spell AND mana regen.

You are still not able to spam your spell like mad, you can cast some spells, and regen to be able to handle adds. Before, i was only able to put dots and i would always have to keep mana "in case of" thus i'm not usefull as a dps.

You have 4 mobs, you can dps on 3 while mezzing some and you regen on the last for next pull.