[Mhenlu]

I lost a bit of hope today..

I respected you Brad, you did good with EQ for what you were there for, and had me really hyped over VG. But after what was done to disciples today im left wondering the questions of foundation.

Blessed wind: *example BW3* Damages mob for 50% of weapon damage, plus 40. Once healed for 700 over 8 secs, now heals 208 over 8 seconds. Also, increased the endurance cost, from 30 to 46. Moving from 3 consecutive hits to 2 in attempts to critical chaining. Also, this ability did not, and still does not work on defensive targets other than yourself. Useless for healing anyone except the disciple. This was a solid and solo tool that other healers still get to enjoy with HoT's.

**healing potential= 1/4th previous.
**Endurance efficiency= Lose of 1/3
**Still does not affect defensive targets other than self.

Harmonious Bond: *example 2* Heals target for 1000 or so damage over 60 seconds, Cost, 2 Jin. Does not stick on target longer than 5 seconds. Further pushing disciple healing potential down.

In fact, lets forget the bonds, as all are broken except the endurance drain one, thanks for that.

Lao'Jin Flare: A neat heal for a moderate amount, 400 or so at 20, only costs 3 Jin. With the complete reduction in disciple critical rates, you further push this heal (which is not enough to keep anyone alive except as a last ditch "oh no" button) away from practicality from the loss of chain jin building.

Void Hand: It has no animation, and the damage numbers dont show overhead of the mob, leaving half wondering if it works, and everyone disappointed. 1 Jin earned, 24 endurance cost.

Our good heal, which does substantially less than clerics/shaman, is about 1000 at level 20, and takes 1/4 to 1/5 total energy.. the lesser quicker heal...even less efficient.

Oh but wait, we have the finisher that group heals for 475 once every minute or so. Not a bad finisher, cool down hampers its consistency, but Helpful, quite so, as its half the reason i can function in a group without feeling like a wasted slot.


Now on to what you did to damage, the critical rate especially. Its what, if not all that kept disciples looking good for damage. We managed to crit every 2nd or 3rd special attack, which allowed our finisher that deals nice damage (less than real offensive melee's by a load) and also throws a small +healing buff on our defensive target. A handy finisher, Too bad it only gets used every 2 fights. (which i might add worked perfectly as a duo with Blessed wind.

We had Good damage with Great sustainability before.
Now we have low damage with moderate to low stability.


How did such a sweeping change to the least played of the healer classes and nearly least of all classes played get passed so easily? Just a casual adjustment like no big deal that completely altered the soloability/groupability of an entire class. Its not like disciples were running the servers in droves, we were least played for a reason, it was a niche. But now, a healing class (universally a non inspiring role in gaming) is getting pushed down by a system that supports grouping?

You make defensive melee look good.........

[Cobalty2004]

They needed to do something with DSC's as they can solo 4dots like cake. But them nerfing you (which is fine) and not fixing your broken abilities is over the line.

[Mhenlu]

Ill be the first to say that either the damage needs to be toned a tad (and I do mean a tad, as we didnt do nearly the DPS of rangers or monks and the like) which allowed what survivability that we had to be sufficient to solo some outrageous mobs.

Or even there could have been a small change to the longevity that a disc could fight, but to do both, while leaving class breaking bugs in, is really unsettling. I am totally considering rerolling to something not likely to get knee jerked into oblivion, like a dreadknight.

I tried to go the healer who doesnt suck completely at combat route. I guess I should've went cleric, or is that today's prime time patch? They probably arent finished until healers are put into their respective places by sigil, group bitches.

[Molitoth]

I think they will fix it in the future, but this nerf was extremly bad.
Most of our abilities render borderline useless. All we have going for us is FD, and it doesn't even work right.

[Halbe]

Originally Posted by Mhenlu

Ill be the first to say that either the damage needs to be toned a tad (and I do mean a tad, as we didnt do nearly the DPS of rangers or monks and the like) which allowed what survivability that we had to be sufficient to solo some outrageous mobs.

Or even there could have been a small change to the longevity that a disc could fight, but to do both, while leaving class breaking bugs in, is really unsettling. I am totally considering rerolling to something not likely to get knee jerked into oblivion, like a dreadknight.

I tried to go the healer who doesnt suck completely at combat route. I guess I should've went cleric, or is that today's prime time patch? They probably arent finished until healers are put into their respective places by sigil, group bitches.

I was still killing lvl 20 3-dot mobs last night (I'm lvl 18), most of the time without worry. Took longer, yes.

But, in the same setting, I watched my lv 18 DK buddy get waxed by the same mobs.

Is it Sigil with the knee-jerk reactions, or is it you in response to the changes?

[Mhenlu]

Originally Posted by Halbe

I was still killing lvl 20 3-dot mobs last night (I'm lvl 18), most of the time without worry. Took longer, yes.

But, in the same setting, I watched my lv 18 DK buddy get waxed by the same mobs.

Is it Sigil with the knee-jerk reactions, or is it you in response to the changes?

Do you think killing level 20 3-dot mobs is rare? That only disciples or clerics can do it? The potential that disciples once had is cut in half or more. Your dreadknight buddy, a melee defensive class meant to tank and not solo was unable to solo something above his level and meant for a group, Holy crap, stop the presses, here's a clue, a lot of people can kill 3 dots slightly above their level given enough time. Tell your buddy to learn fear and dots.

I fully understand what a change like this could mean to and for disciples in the long run, if our power is cut at level 20 by half, i have no hope for the future levels. Do you fully comprehend it?

[Halbe]

Originally Posted by Mhenlu

Do you think killing level 20 3-dot mobs is rare? That only disciples or clerics can do it? The potential that disciples once had is cut in half or more. Your dreadknight buddy, a melee defensive class meant to tank and not solo was unable to solo something above his level and meant for a group, Holy crap, stop the presses, here's a clue, a lot of people can kill 3 dots slightly above their level given enough time. Tell your buddy to learn fear and dots.

I fully understand what a change like this could mean to and for disciples in the long run, if our power is cut at level 20 by half, i have no hope for the future levels. Do you fully comprehend it?

/sigh...

Here's a thought, take off those, "OMG MY CLASS GOT NERFED" blinders, quit having such rampent tunnel vision, and look at the big picture of what has been happening.

I've said this in about 10 threads now, but I'll say it again.

The reason that these drastic "nerfs" are taking place is do to the massive change in the way the con-system has been handled since the game went live.

If you were unaware, here is the breakdown:

1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid

Now, can you see where the problem lies in the innitial design, and what is actually happening? Can you honestly, other then 2 dot, say any of these original design concepts were being met?

3-dots were being solo'd.
4-dots duo'd
5-dots 4 manned (Even a video of a severly underleveled group taking one down with just for people).
6-dot - Well, dunno.

Now, your probably asking yourself, "But Halbe, I don't care what's best for the game, I only care about me. Me, Me, Me!!!"

Yes, I understand this, but have some patients.

It seems that classes are being normalized based on two concepts.

1.) How well do you do against a 3-dot solo?
2.) How do you effect groups?

In the case of Sorcs, they added WAY to much DPS to a group, so the ability that reflected this got nerfed.

Disciples were able to just walk through 3-dots with NO downtime and MUCH faster then most other classes. We had our dmg reduced.

Now, yes, our healing took a blow too. But, when they get bonds/BW/FP working on defensive targets, the sum of all three would have been overpowered beyond believe. They needed to do something, and they did.

In any case, back to your main concern, don't worry, you'll see the same effects on other classes in the comming week.

We arn't "Nerfed" or "Underpowered", we've been normalized for the new system. Others are going to be following.

[Mhenlu]

Normalized? If we were normalized, it would be normal, in the norm, As it stands, Disciples have been the most nerfed class post launch, if you were in beta, you knew the only reason disciples got played is because of a DPS increase in january. Its not normal when only 1 class gets pushed to the idea of correct con systems, thats abnormal, and makes the class affected subpar until all other classes have been similarly "normalized". The fact is, we are broken right now, this very second, we have abilities that you yourself agree we NEED to be viable, that do not function correctly, and at the same time, we got nerfed...

Oooh oooh disciples can solo 3 dots routinely, i dont care about that. I care that my role as healer for my consistent group is in jeopardy, while at the same time my ability to bring anything to the group besides bad healing is faltering.

In a group, they out DPS me so badly its hardly worth me fighting, from a healing standpoint, i have to fight furiously just to keep them alive because half my things dont work and the other half just got nerfed.

Let the people who solo'd constantly and without thought for other classes get lessened, but christ man, leave me with a class that doesnt feel like i got my nuts chopped off.

[Prediant]

What people don't understand is what they nerfed to oblivion is the only thing that made a Disciple a Disciple. Fair melee dps with endurance based healing. Now we cannot do either effectively.

The class is exactly how it was after the first pass on our final revamp in beta except we don't have the energy cost on our endurance heals, and everyone screamed then. Why would they go back to the same formula that they knew didn't work.

What makes a disciple different now except our negatives?

[Halbe]

Originally Posted by Mhenlu

Normalized? If we were normalized, it would be normal, in the norm, As it stands, Disciples have been the most nerfed class post launch, if you were in beta, you knew the only reason disciples got played is because of a DPS increase in january. Its not normal when only 1 class gets pushed to the idea of correct con systems, thats abnormal, and makes the class affected subpar until all other classes have been similarly "normalized". The fact is, we are broken right now, this very second, we have abilities that you yourself agree we NEED to be viable, that do not function correctly, and at the same time, we got nerfed...

Oooh oooh disciples can solo 3 dots routinely, i dont care about that. I care that my role as healer for my consistent group is in jeopardy, while at the same time my ability to bring anything to the group besides bad healing is faltering.

In a group, they out DPS me so badly its hardly worth me fighting, from a healing standpoint, i have to fight furiously just to keep them alive because half my things dont work and the other half just got nerfed.

Let the people who solo'd constantly and without thought for other classes get lessened, but christ man, leave me with a class that doesnt feel like i got my nuts chopped off.

Oh trust me, I know how things were in Beta.

Just killing even con 2-dots was a pain. In Qalia, the gnolls with their 70% healing debuff. If it hit you, you were in for a fight because how little DPS we did.

Now, I will never, ever disagree that the class isn't broken. It is. We know it. And on top of that, we got kicked in the teeth by being one of the first classes to really be normalized. When I say normalized, we arn't comparing ourselves to other classes, because they are yet to be reviewed. If we were the last class and this is the treatment we got, yes, I would complain.

However, we are not. We were one of the first to be normalized "against the system." How things SHOULD work, but currently don't.

Sigil had to do this. They had to make these changes to bring classes back down to atleast relative equallity.

Why?

Because, without it, XP normalization would be impossible. You couldn't possibly design an experience system around a class structure that is as random depending on whether you have 1, 2, 3 or a whole group of overpowered classes. You can normalize soloing when there are classes that can solo 10x faster then others. Now, obviously there are usually exceptions, such as a Necro, but the exceptions shoudn't be on-par with the rules.

Don't get me wrong, if there is one thing I'm pissed about, its that our broken abilities arn't fixed to adjust for the nerf.

I think if those fixes would have accompanied these nerfs, along with the reasoning behind these changes, I think things would have went alot smoother.

[Fingis]

Originally Posted by Mhenlu

Normalized? If we were normalized, it would be normal, in the norm,

I bet this has more to do with pvp than pve.

Disciples where probably racking PKs like Sauron when he took on the allies at Mordor.

PvE? meh, who cares?

[swerv]

If they wanted to nerf disciples and stop them soloing 3 or 4 dot equal con mobs why not just stick with nerfing dps?

We are meant to be healers, at least leave our heals alone. Cutting our endowment of life so drastically just stopped any reason for me bothering to get into melee, aswell as raising endurance costs for a skill that doesn't even work as intended! Now we're just a stand at the back and spam heals char.

One of the more interesting and challenging characters to play in a group just wrecked. These changes make me want to solo more.

[Cobalty2004]

Originally Posted by Halbe

/sigh...

Here's a thought, take off those, "OMG MY CLASS GOT NERFED" blinders, quit having such rampent tunnel vision, and look at the big picture of what has been happening.

I've said this in about 10 threads now, but I'll say it again.

The reason that these drastic "nerfs" are taking place is do to the massive change in the way the con-system has been handled since the game went live.

If you were unaware, here is the breakdown:

1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid

Now, can you see where the problem lies in the innitial design, and what is actually happening? Can you honestly, other then 2 dot, say any of these original design concepts were being met?

3-dots were being solo'd.
4-dots duo'd
5-dots 4 manned (Even a video of a severly underleveled group taking one down with just for people).
6-dot - Well, dunno.

Now, your probably asking yourself, "But Halbe, I don't care what's best for the game, I only care about me. Me, Me, Me!!!"

Yes, I understand this, but have some patients.

It seems that classes are being normalized based on two concepts.

1.) How well do you do against a 3-dot solo?
2.) How do you effect groups?

In the case of Sorcs, they added WAY to much DPS to a group, so the ability that reflected this got nerfed.

Disciples were able to just walk through 3-dots with NO downtime and MUCH faster then most other classes. We had our dmg reduced.

Now, yes, our healing took a blow too. But, when they get bonds/BW/FP working on defensive targets, the sum of all three would have been overpowered beyond believe. They needed to do something, and they did.

In any case, back to your main concern, don't worry, you'll see the same effects on other classes in the comming week.

We arn't "Nerfed" or "Underpowered", we've been normalized for the new system. Others are going to be following.

DSCs needed a nerf badly, any class that can solo an even 4dot can. But Sigil should fix thier other problems before nerfing them.

[Halbe]

Originally Posted by Cobalty2004

DSCs needed a nerf badly, any class that can solo an even 4dot can. But Sigil should fix thier other problems before nerfing them.

Totally agree.

I'm not going to defend how they went about making these changes (or the order in which they were made), but the overall goal of them is the best thing they could have done for the game.

[Tallenn]

Originally Posted by Halbe

If you were unaware, here is the breakdown:

1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid

Now, can you see where the problem lies in the innitial design, and what is actually happening? Can you honestly, other then 2 dot, say any of these original design concepts were being met?

3-dots were being solo'd.
4-dots duo'd
5-dots 4 manned (Even a video of a severly underleveled group taking one down with just for people).
6-dot - Well, dunno.

Your assessment of the dot system is paraphrased, and badly. Here is the system from the manual:

One. Can be safely engaged by most adventurers fighting solo. Adventurers with strong combat skills can fight multiple one-dot enemies at a time.
Two. Can usually be safely engaged solo. Combat specialists might be able to take on two or three at a time, with some luck and planning.
Three. Requires planning and preparation to fight solo. Avoid multiple Threes unless fighting in a group.
Four. Don’t attempt to engage unless you’re in a group.
Five. Don’t attempt to engage unless you’re in a strong and well-organized group.
Six. Only the strongest and most proficient groups should even try. Probably best to wait until you’re a higher level, or are part of a raid.

Note that 3 dot mobs are intended to be soloed with planning, and as long as you can take them one at a time.

Also note that 4 dot mobs are intended to be grouped- but it doesn't specify a full group, as the it does for 5 dot mobs. Duos and trios are groups.

You should avoid paraphrasing if you can't keep to the actual meaning of what you are trying to paraphrase -unless of course you are doing it on purpose to falsely prove your point.

[Azyel]

Originally Posted by swerv

If they wanted to nerf disciples and stop them soloing 3 or 4 dot equal con mobs why not just stick with nerfing dps?

We are meant to be healers, at least leave our heals alone. Cutting our endowment of life so drastically just stopped any reason for me bothering to get into melee, aswell as raising endurance costs for a skill that doesn't even work as intended! Now we're just a stand at the back and spam heals char.

One of the more interesting and challenging characters to play in a group just wrecked. These changes make me want to solo more.

I agree. Choosing a healer means the goal is to be an efficient healer... I don't care for the dps as much, i want to keep my full group healed. Disciples need jin to be efficient healers, now they cannot build enough and fast enough to do so, thus they became a stand back healer at which other classes are more efficient. Or is the intent to have disciple healing abilities less than other classes? Might be, just wish i known before i rolled one...

And if they decide to "adjust" shamans and clerics as such, is it intended that a full group needs 2 healers to keep the group alive?

[Mhenlu]

Just upsetting that after weeks of play, the class I had gotten use to and chose well before FOTM'ers gets so drastically nerfed and reduced. Im too sickened to bother logging in.

I really thought vanguard was gonna be the next great game out for us MMO'ers. Alas

[Halbe]

Originally Posted by Tallenn

Your assessment of the dot system is paraphrased, and badly. Here is the system from the manual:

One. Can be safely engaged by most adventurers fighting solo. Adventurers with strong combat skills can fight multiple one-dot enemies at a time.
Two. Can usually be safely engaged solo. Combat specialists might be able to take on two or three at a time, with some luck and planning.
Three. Requires planning and preparation to fight solo. Avoid multiple Threes unless fighting in a group.
Four. Don’t attempt to engage unless you’re in a group.
Five. Don’t attempt to engage unless you’re in a strong and well-organized group.
Six. Only the strongest and most proficient groups should even try. Probably best to wait until you’re a higher level, or are part of a raid.

Note that 3 dot mobs are intended to be soloed with planning, and as long as you can take them one at a time.

Also note that 4 dot mobs are intended to be grouped- but it doesn't specify a full group, as the it does for 5 dot mobs. Duos and trios are groups.

You should avoid paraphrasing if you can't keep to the actual meaning of what you are trying to paraphrase -unless of course you are doing it on purpose to falsely prove your point.

And here is a quote from the Silky Venom forums a few days ago from Tagad, a lead designer:

I went ahead and cut out the obviously inflamatory sections of this post. Now I pose the question, what level were you, how many group members did you have, and what challenge rating (number of dots) were the NPCs, and what level are the NPCs?

If you were, for example, in a full group of six, fighting 3 dots three levels under your level, you were not exactly "in the zone" as far as experience is concerned. I don't feel that we have done a good enough job explaining the different challenge ratings in the game to make things more clear for the playerbase at large.

1 Dot - pretty rare, solo swarm mobs
2 Dot - average solo NPC, not good experience for groups
3 Dot - "hard" solo NPC for some classes, good for duo's and trios
4 Dot - Group, 4 players for a single NPC, six for multi pulls
5 Dot + Group, six players suggested
----------------------------------------------

And now, my paraphrasing:

1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid
----------------------------------------------

Your thoughts?

Based on this, do you think I "twisted" the meaning to prove my point, or did you jump to conclusions and put your foot in your mouth?

I'll let you decide.

[Mhenlu]

Originally Posted by Halbe

And here is a quote from the Silky Venom forums a few days ago from Tagad, a lead designer:

I went ahead and cut out the obviously inflamatory sections of this post. Now I pose the question, what level were you, how many group members did you have, and what challenge rating (number of dots) were the NPCs, and what level are the NPCs?

If you were, for example, in a full group of six, fighting 3 dots three levels under your level, you were not exactly "in the zone" as far as experience is concerned. I don't feel that we have done a good enough job explaining the different challenge ratings in the game to make things more clear for the playerbase at large.

1 Dot - pretty rare, solo swarm mobs
2 Dot - average solo NPC, not good experience for groups
3 Dot - "hard" solo NPC for some classes, good for duo's and trios
4 Dot - Group, 4 players for a single NPC, six for multi pulls
5 Dot + Group, six players suggested
----------------------------------------------

And now, my paraphrasing:

1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid
----------------------------------------------

Your thoughts?

Based on this, do you think I "twisted" the meaning to prove my point, or did you jump to conclusions and put your foot in your mouth?

I'll let you decide.

Actually, you did twist it. 3 dots should be hard solo, not duo/trio required. 4 dot is for good trio's or groups intending multiple 4 dot mobs. 5 Dots is meant for full group.

[Halbe]

Originally Posted by Mhenlu

Actually, you did twist it. 3 dots should be hard solo, not duo/trio required. 4 dot is for good trio's or groups intending multiple 4 dot mobs. 5 Dots is meant for full group.

Oh you gotta be kidding me.

I don't think anyone is going to argue the validity of a class actually having a difficulty time soloing 3-dots.

Actually, ITS WHAT THEY DID TO US.

We NOW have a hard time.

However, they ARE GOOD for duo's and trio's, as I freaking said.

Come on, you guys are really stretching here.

Seriously, your going to attack my paraphrasing of these, when they are pretty much a restatement of what Tagad said, when your explination of 4-dots, that they are "good for trio's", is nowhere mentioned in his explination?

Hello pot, meet kettle?